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United Kingdom10006 Posts
Meanwhile Boris going out of is way to show that he doesn't understand the long term consequences of reneging on your international financial obligations.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/25/boris-johnson-no-deal-uk-brexit-divorce-bill
Boris Johnson has said the £39bn Brexit divorce bill would not “strictly speaking” be owed to Brussels in full in the event of no deal, insisting: “It’s not a threat. It’s a reality.”
Speaking to broadcasters as he prepared to meet the European council president, Donald Tusk, at the G7 summit in Biarritz, Johnson said: “If we come out without an agreement it is certainly true that the £39bn is no longer, strictly speaking, owed.”
He told ITV: “There will be very substantial sums available to our country to spend on our priorities. It’s not a threat. It’s a simple fact of reality.”
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
So its happening.
Boris is shutting down Parliament with a very thin, transparent and disingenuous excuse in order to stop anti no-deal MPs from being able to do their jobs.
Poor form. Statements from the government this morning seem to imply that they believe they have this all wrapped up and that no-deal is now definitely happening. The value of the pound is plummeting as we speak. The speaker of the house calls it an outrage and MPs are going mental all over the country...
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
There are threats of a vote of no confidence but the government has responded saying it will call an election meaning parliament will remain shut down until we leave with no deal anyway.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/28/chancellor-sajid-javid-fast-tracked-spending-review-fuels-talk-of-early-election
Boris Johnson has confirmed he has asked the Queen for permission to suspend parliament for five weeks from early September.
The prime minister claimed MPs would have “ample time” to debate Brexit, as he wrote to MPs on Wednesday, saying he had spoken to the Queen and asked her to suspend parliament from “the second sitting week in September”.
MPs will then return to Westminster on 14 October, when he said there would be a new Queen’s speech, setting out what he called a “bold and ambitious domestic legislative agenda for the renewal of our country after Brexit”.
The effect of the decision will be to curtail dramatically the time MPs have to introduce legislation or other measures aimed at preventing a no-deal Brexit. Parliament is expected to sit for little more than a week from 3 September.
But asked if he was denying opposition MPs the time to stop a no-deal Brexit, the prime minister told Sky News: “No, that is completely untrue. We are bringing forward a new legislative programme on crime, hospitals, making sure we have the education funding we need.”
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
but we're taking back control!
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Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want?
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On August 28 2019 19:54 Gorsameth wrote:
Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want?
You got that the wrong way around, there is no reality in which the Queen does not accept this.
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Surely the Queen can't suspend all democratically elected representatives?
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On August 28 2019 20:53 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Surely the Queen can't suspend all democratically elected representatives?
I always assumed the english queen has no real power to say no
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On August 28 2019 20:40 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2019 19:54 Gorsameth wrote:
Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want? You got that the wrong way around, there is no reality in which the Queen does not accept this. by what reasoning?
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On August 28 2019 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2019 20:40 Laurens wrote:On August 28 2019 19:54 Gorsameth wrote:
Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want? You got that the wrong way around, there is no reality in which the Queen does not accept this. by what reasoning?
The Queen has to take legal advice on Parliament from the PM. She will not and realistically cannot refuse to prorogue Parliament if Boris asks her to.
Otherwise the Queen is literally able to subvert the democratic processes of our country. Yes, I get the irony in that, but it does make sense.
Although the timing makes Boris' motivations here clear, this is NOT a unique or unheard of Parliamentary procedure. The paper thin justification that the government has given is perfectly legal and in some respects perfectly normal. Parliament would be suspended and reset to signify the beginning of a new legislative agenda, backed up by a Queen's speech.
Just because in this case he is obviously doing it for Brexit, it doesn't mean the Queen has a right to interfere in that process.
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This would be a conflict of two different constitutional principles but as far as I know, the highest, most important constitutional principle in the UK is parliamentary sovereignty, and while it may not happen, I would like to believe that the Queen would uphold this principle over the principle of non-intervention from the monarch as she should. It is getting utterly ridiculous that a sitting government should be allowed to suspend Parliament to push through a controversial and divisive policy and shakes the very core of the British constitution.
In that sense, I'd like to see the Queen exercise this power that she constitutionally cannot. I think it's a principle that cannot take supremacy over parliamentary sovereignty. We can all thank Cromwell and co for that.
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On August 28 2019 19:54 Gorsameth wrote:
Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want?
As I said before though, a no confidence vote has even more dire consequences for Brexit - potentially.
If the government then calls an election there will zero time for MPs to debate stopping a no-deal Brexit. The government will call an election in the case of a NC vote.
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On August 28 2019 21:17 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2019 19:54 Gorsameth wrote:
Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want? As I said before though, a no confidence vote has even more dire consequences for Brexit - potentially. If the government then calls an election there will zero time for MPs to debate stopping a no-deal Brexit. The government will call an election in the case of a NC vote. With Boris on a ram course to force a no-deal Brexit the sooner you get him out as PM the better, the timing won't be better when you do it at the end of October.
On August 28 2019 21:12 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2019 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:On August 28 2019 20:40 Laurens wrote:On August 28 2019 19:54 Gorsameth wrote:
Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want? You got that the wrong way around, there is no reality in which the Queen does not accept this. by what reasoning? The Queen has to take legal advice on Parliament from the PM. She will not and realistically cannot refuse to prorogue Parliament if Boris asks her to. Otherwise the Queen is literally able to subvert the democratic processes of our country. Yes, I get the irony in that, but it does make sense. Although the timing makes Boris' motivations here clear, this is NOT a unique or unheard of Parliamentary procedure. The paper thin justification that the government has given is perfectly legal and in some respects perfectly normal. Parliament would be suspended and reset to signify the beginning of a new legislative agenda, backed up by a Queen's speech. Just because in this case he is obviously doing it for Brexit, it doesn't mean the Queen has a right to interfere in that process. In a normal situation I would completely agree with you that the Queen would never go against the wishes of the PM. But this is far far from a normal situation.
The Queen has a lot of power still in the UK, she doesn't use it because its better to let the democratically elect government do what it wants. But I don't believe she is obligated to do what the PM asks, no matter how technically legal the request might be.
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On August 28 2019 21:24 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2019 21:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2019 19:54 Gorsameth wrote:
Wow, i'll give him this. One of the boldest coup attempts I have seen.
There is no reality in which the Queen accepts this right?
And a more scary thought, the PM just tried to suspend parliament to push through an unpopular (by the people) agenda. Surely a vote of no confidence has to be called at the earliest opportunity? But will it, and what will it say if there isn't one (or it fails). That a majority of MP's are ok with suspending Democracy on a whim to get what they want? As I said before though, a no confidence vote has even more dire consequences for Brexit - potentially. If the government then calls an election there will zero time for MPs to debate stopping a no-deal Brexit. The government will call an election in the case of a NC vote. With Boris on a ram course to force a no-deal Brexit the sooner you get him out as PM the better, the timing won't be better when you do it at the end of October.
I would agree if a NC vote was guaranteed to permanently remove Boris from office.
The issues with this are twofold:
1: A general election means a no-deal Brexit. 100%, absolutely, no choice. Under GE conditions the government immediately suspends Parliament and that remains the case until after the withdrawal deadline. There would be no recourse by which any MP could prevent no-deal. I might be wrong. I sound certain, but I only *think* this is the case; not being an expert on Parliamentary procedure.
2: The most likely result of a GE at this point is Boris wins by a much larger majority than the government has now, making it also impossible to stop no-deal
In a normal situation I would completely agree with you that the Queen would never go against the wishes of the PM. But this is far far from a normal situation.
The Queen has a lot of power still in the UK, she doesn't use it because its better to let the democratically elect government do what it wants. But I don't believe she is obligated to do what the PM asks, no matter how technically legal the request might be.
She is not legally obligated to do as the PM asks, but realistically she is, especially on a matter such as Brexit, on which the country is split 50/50. If she subverts the will of the democratically elected government to take sides on a 50/50 matter with strong feelings running on both sides in the public she might as well hand in her crown and posh gloves now because they wouldn't be a Royal Family for very much longer.
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The issue here is its not democratically elected government its procedurally selected government. Boris was elected in internal Tory party vote (and not without oposition) and Tories do not even have enough seats to rule without DUP support. Thats not my business though.
In any case lets be over with it, we are waiting for those tasty jobs taht UK doesnt want as one of my friends put it.
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The only course of action here for the queen is to allow this - there's precedent behind her and the argument goes that she was only following it and staying impartial.
Which, unfortunately, means we're fucked.
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Is there any precedent regarding the Queen saying no to Boris?
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The oath the German Chancellor has to take before getting into office includes a line like "I hereby vow to prevent harm from the German people."
Is there an equivalent for British PMs?
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Set sail, Britannia! It was an... okay ride with you 
Gotta give it to the brexit orchestrators, they played their hand very very well.
Edit: gotta stock up on Scotch now!
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All i can do is shake my head.
Have fun with this one England.
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EPT
