EPTAll that is going to happen from this is a 12 month plus delay request due to a general election is coming which will throw the whole thing right up in the air. Imagine the manifesto's from each party it will be crazy lol. Half of labour mp's won't be able to back their party for example if Corbyn said he wants a second referendum / revoking article 50. Conservatives would rebel if their manifesto was proposed as May's deal only. The new party they have no time to get any infrastructure in place at all to try and get their party any votes. Be right weird general election which probably again results in a hung parliament and we back to square one haha.
UK Politics Mega-thread - Page 502
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
All that is going to happen from this is a 12 month plus delay request due to a general election is coming which will throw the whole thing right up in the air. Imagine the manifesto's from each party it will be crazy lol. Half of labour mp's won't be able to back their party for example if Corbyn said he wants a second referendum / revoking article 50. Conservatives would rebel if their manifesto was proposed as May's deal only. The new party they have no time to get any infrastructure in place at all to try and get their party any votes. Be right weird general election which probably again results in a hung parliament and we back to square one haha. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
But nothing about brexit is following any sort of logic or reason so who knows. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On March 26 2019 17:47 Pandemona wrote: I like how May already said she won't back any of it though so its irrelevant but i guess she will lack power for that eventually i don't know. It remains to see what she'll do but what she said is that she can't commit to a blank cheque of implementing whatever the indicative votes produce, Which is a completely reasonable position. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom10003 Posts
If May has to promise to step down for that to happen she absolutely should do. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Yeah i think that is defo a thing and its best for the party. Until the next crisis. What the Tories need is an explosion. This is the second time already that there's a civil war brewing inside the party, and the fringed ultras (ERG etc) won't go away after whatever date Brexit is gonna happen. No to mention that "Brexit" isn't done after said date, and how well do you think will negotiations for trade relations go afterwards, if you have to appeal to people like Boris Johnson, Mogg etc? While certainly good if the deal gets done, it does nothing to the systemic problem that plagues the country, and that's worthless politicians, every single one with visions of grandeur, some outright deluded while also being clueless. I have lived in multiple countries over the years, and the UK parliament by far takes the cake for ignorance and selfserving motives. In other countries you see people getting bought by lobbies/interest groups, in the UK politicians purely work for their own gains. There's reasonable politicians left with the tories (usually they're called betrayers, traitors, that kinda stuff), but if the fringes can hijack everything they set their mind to, then this is pretty much just the beginning of either Tories exploding, or UKIP 2.0 later down the line. Not to mention that it gets outright dangerous for the future of the country if you have people like Josef Moggele, who already make clear (completely shameless, i might add) that "international law is hard to enforce, so lets sign the deal and then fuck them, nothing they can do - international law is more like political declarations anyway". That's from one of the "leading" tories (and lets be clear, the ERG points the way, not May). In fact, journalists i think called it "signing the deal with crossed fingers behind your back". Who gives a shit what's best "for the party", "the party" did enough damage and they're already openly promising to do worse. We had our discussions in the other thread of outcomes in regards of the USA pissing of china and vice versa, but there should be no discussion (actually, funny enough, ERG would disagree) that in terms of the UK openly going into a trade war with the EU (or does anyone think that breaking the treaty will not have repercussions?), there won't even be a contest? It's one thing to poke the EU in regards to coming up with an agreement, it's an entirely different one to break a treaty and argue that the EU can't do anything about, if only to not give Canada, Turkey etc any ideas. It's moronic to argue that something is "best for the party". This isn't football. It's not "your team". If you're conservative, you're conservative. Not Tory. I'm conservative(-ish) in many of my views, i wouldn't vote Tory if my life would depend on it. Try "best for the country/people". Something that is eerily absent from anything the Tories did/do. | ||
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pmh
1416 Posts
Corbyn asking the pm why she doesn't want to consider a customs union as that's what "business leaders" want. See,corbyn he doesn't want to leave at all. Curious what will happen today,i guess not that much in the end and then its count down time. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
I'll add May doesn't want to leave either but has been given the task to bring us out due to the party's wishes etc. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
He voted to leave the EEC in the 1975 referendum. He opposed the creation of the EU under the Maastricht treaty, both speaking and voting against it in parliament 93. He voted against the Lisbon treaty multiple times in 2008. In 2010 he voted against the EU diplomatic service. He voted for a referendum on the EU membership in 2011, against the labour whip. He opposed the creation of the ESM (only 26, the most hardcore eurosceptics, voted against it, joining illustrious intelligence-oozing people like Bill Cash). In 2016 Tariq Ali made clear that he's sure that if Corbyn wasn't Labour leader, he'd be campaigning to leave. Piers Corbyn made clear that Corbyn privately is opposed Britain being a member too. In 2016 Corbyn went on holiday during the referendum campaign, he refused to attend the launch, he attacked ministers for publicising the remain case, saying they should also have promoted arguments in favour of leave. The Director of the Remain campaign, himself a Labour member and candidate, said, “Rather than making a clear and passionate Labour case for EU membership, Corbyn took a week’s holiday in the middle of the campaign and removed pro-EU lines from his speeches”. During the referendum campaign, Leave.EU highlighted Corbyn’s attacks on Europe made in 1996. The day after the 2016 referendum, he called for the immediate invocation of article 50 - faster than even May. He literally voted in Parliament 2016 to leave and for the process to not start later than 31.3 2017. He opposed britain remaining in the single market in 2017 and even sacked labour MPs who voted in favour of the single market. I honestly don't understand why people still argue that "he might not want to leave", he wants to leave more than most other politicians. He indeed didn't want to join in the first place. There's no indication that he ever was in favour of anything EU. It's in fact the other way around. Many labour MPs are in favour of soft/no brexit, it's Corbyn that is blocking. How you could look at Corbyns history and come to the conclusion that he is anything like May is beyond me. In fact he's the polar opposite. May wants to remain but tries to get Brexit done, Corbyn wants to leave, always has, and for some reason gets portrayed as the guy who does not. | ||
KwarK
United States44351 Posts
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On March 28 2019 01:40 KwarK wrote: New Labour are pro EU, Old Labour anti EU. Corbyn is Old Labour. The MPs are predominantly New Labour. These are foundational facts needed to understand the situation. Its easy to not notice how ridiculous this reads, considering the status quo. But maybe you need more than two parties to govern a country? I cant believe there is just a general acceptance in the US and UK to have FPTP voting considering how disastrous it is. The range of opinions within parties is insane. | ||
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KwarK
United States44351 Posts
On March 28 2019 01:59 solidbebe wrote: Its easy to not notice how ridiculous this reads, considering the status quo. But maybe you need more than two parties to govern a country? I cant believe there is just a general acceptance in the US and UK to have FPTP voting considering how disastrous it is. The range of opinions within parties is insane. Preaching to the choir buddy. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom10003 Posts
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pmh
1416 Posts
-hard brexit:block Mays deal and anything else. They don't want this. -softer brexit like Norway:block mays deal and hope Norway option gets enough support. This is what they want. -"normal" brexit:support mays deal. Rather not but of everything else fails then maybe. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9246 Posts
On March 28 2019 03:21 pmh wrote: Corbyn and labour have the key. -hard brexit:block Mays deal and anything else. They don't want this. -softer brexit like Norway:block mays deal and hope Norway option gets enough support. This is what they want. -"normal" brexit:support mays deal. Rather not but of everything else fails then maybe. Corbyn just sent a letter to Labour MPs about supporting the Beckett amendment. If passed that would mean that any Brexit deal would be ratified only after a referendum on it https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1110952627016212485/photo/1 | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22630 Posts
On March 28 2019 03:30 Dan HH wrote: Sounds like support for a no-deal Brexit to me.Corbyn just sent a letter to Labour MPs about supporting the Beckett amendment. If passed that would mean that any Brexit deal would be ratified only after a referendum on it https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1110952627016212485/photo/1 The UK has until the end of the week to approve May's deal, no time for a referendum. So the Brexit deadline becomes 12th April, 2 weeks is again no time for a referendum. So in practicality its a no-deal situation. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Dan HH
Romania9246 Posts
On March 28 2019 03:35 Gorsameth wrote: Sounds like support for a no-deal Brexit to me. The UK has until the end of the week to approve May's deal, no time for a referendum. So the Brexit deadline becomes 12th April, 2 weeks is again no time for a referendum. So in practicality its a no-deal situation. There would be an extension for a referendum or general election. The only realistic options right now are May's deal or referendum and it mostly depends on whether the DUP will vote against May or not. No deal is out of the question, EU would do anything to avoid it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22630 Posts
On March 28 2019 03:43 Dan HH wrote: the UK needs to notify if its going to partake in EU elections in the week of 12th April so IF the UK can get an extension past that it would still only be a referendum between option X and no-deal since remain would be off the table. There would be an extension for a referendum or general election. The only realistic options right now are May's deal or referendum and it mostly depends on whether the DUP will vote against May or not. No deal is out of the question, EU would do anything to avoid it. At this point the only options are to leave before May 22nd (EU election start date) or staying until atleast the end of the year and partake in the EU elections. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9246 Posts
On March 28 2019 03:50 Gorsameth wrote: the UK needs to notify if its going to partake in EU elections in the week of 12th April so IF the UK can get an extension past that it would still only be a referendum between option X and no-deal since remain would be off the table. QED, Tusk today: “And here, let me make one personal remark to the Members of this Parliament. Before the European Council, I said that we should be open to a long extension if the UK wishes to rethink its Brexit strategy, which would of course mean the UK's participation in the European Parliament elections. And then there were voices saying that this would be harmful or inconvenient to some of you. Let me be clear: such thinking is unacceptable. You cannot betray the six million people who signed the petition to revoke Article 50, the one million people who marched for a People's Vote, or the increasing majority of people who want to remain in the European Union. They may feel that they are not sufficiently represented by the UK Parliament, but they must feel that they are represented by you in this chamber. Because they are Europeans.” https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019/03/27/report-by-president-donald-tusk-to-the-european-parliament-on-march-european-council-meetings/ | ||
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