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No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him.
Cute description. Here's another.
He's "being a politician" because he puts his own interests above what the party as a whole stands for, rather than doing his job as the opposition leader.
Remember that May is a remainer and does what she's supposed to (even if badly).
What has your saviour to offer other than "that's kinda bad innit?"?
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On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does.
Well, Brexit will hurt the working people in the UK. The details will determine how badly. If he's not interested in mitigating the effects of Brexit, then that makes him a terrible politician, especially left-leaning. If the EU doesn't factor in into his plans for the UK and he wants to build some socialist autarky or something, then he's even more of a moron.
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On February 14 2019 09:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. He’s fucking the UK by not participating in the Brexit process beyond “I don’t like your plan”. Ehm, didn't he make his position clear in his letter to May?
Now its a stupid position to take, giving up a voice in the EU decisions while still wanting to be bound by all its regulations but he has now taken a position.
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On February 14 2019 19:24 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 09:02 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. He’s fucking the UK by not participating in the Brexit process beyond “I don’t like your plan”. Ehm, didn't he make his position clear in his letter to May? Now its a stupid position to take, giving up a voice in the EU decisions while still wanting to be bound by all its regulations but he has now taken a position.
Yeah but he's trying to take that position while also trying not to lose the support of people who want a second referendum, by saying that he might support that some time later on down the line.
He's supposed to be a principled politician, but he's too scared of losing support to actually define what his principles say about our relationship with EU.
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On February 14 2019 17:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. Well, Brexit will hurt the working people in the UK. The details will determine how badly. If he's not interested in mitigating the effects of Brexit, then that makes him a terrible politician, especially left-leaning. If the EU doesn't factor in into his plans for the UK and he wants to build some socialist autarky or something, then he's even more of a moron.
This is assuming that Corbyn doesn't already think that the EU is manifestly bad for workers (due to its fundamental ties to sustaining a manifestly Capitalist system). Yes, Corbyn is some flavour of a Socialist. That should be fairly obvious by looking at his general history.
It's becoming black comedy for me that the Labour voters voted Corbyn overwhelmingly into power and somehow failed to realise what they were getting, and now people are acting like he's been hoodwinking them.
The guy's always been open and honest about his views. Kwark I think it was laid out a very good post some pages back laying out exactly why Corbyn and the EU don't mix well.
Now he does like some things the EU's done (see his interest in protecting the EU's laws on worker's rights protection), but it has a ton of stuff he doesn't. Corbyn's basic position is to get out, keep the stuff that's good, and fix what's bad without EU intervention preventing it.
Related, foreign policy has always been one of Corbyn's weakest points. He's very inward-focused, poliically.
On February 14 2019 09:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. He’s fucking the UK by not participating in the Brexit process beyond “I don’t like your plan”.
Sure is. But I don't understand why people are surprised by this. He went on holiday during the Remain campaign period. How can people be getting the memo only now?
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On February 14 2019 17:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. Well, Brexit will hurt the working people in the UK. The details will determine how badly. If he's not interested in mitigating the effects of Brexit, then that makes him a terrible politician, especially left-leaning. If the EU doesn't factor in into his plans for the UK and he wants to build some socialist autarky or something, then he's even more of a moron.
For the last year, arguably since the 2017 election he's been calling for a permanent customs union and close alignment with the single market, which was also voted for by a majority of the party at the 2018 Labour Conference. In every public appearance and every week in Brexit debates in parliament. That was also the foundation in his letter to May the other week. I don't know how that can be seen as anything other than trying to mitigate the effect of Brexit.
It doesn't matter what he do or say, unless he's either burning or humping EU flags on Trafalgar Square, the UK public will always think that he's being vague.
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On February 14 2019 20:10 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 17:31 maybenexttime wrote:On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. Well, Brexit will hurt the working people in the UK. The details will determine how badly. If he's not interested in mitigating the effects of Brexit, then that makes him a terrible politician, especially left-leaning. If the EU doesn't factor in into his plans for the UK and he wants to build some socialist autarky or something, then he's even more of a moron. This is assuming that Corbyn doesn't already think that the EU is manifestly bad for workers (due to its fundamental ties to sustaining a manifestly Capitalist system). Yes, Corbyn is some flavour of a Socialist. That should be fairly obvious by looking at his general history. It's becoming black comedy for me that the Labour voters voted Corbyn overwhelmingly into power and somehow failed to realise what they were getting, and now people are acting like he's been hoodwinking them. The guy's always been open and honest about his views. Kwark I think it was laid out a very good post some pages back laying out exactly why Corbyn and the EU don't mix well. Now he does like some things the EU's done (see his interest in protecting the EU's laws on worker's rights protection), but it has a ton of stuff he doesn't. Corbyn's basic position is to get out, keep the stuff that's good, and fix what's bad without EU intervention preventing it. Related, foreign policy has always been one of Corbyn's weakest points. He's very inward-focused, poliically. Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 09:02 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. He’s fucking the UK by not participating in the Brexit process beyond “I don’t like your plan”. Sure is. But I don't understand why people are surprised by this. He went on holiday during the Remain campaign period. How can people be getting the memo only now?
You seem a bit confused about the nature of Labour. I'm not going to explain it all over again, because Kwark has done it a couple of dozen times in this thread already, but it isn't one homogenous block, just as the Tories are also not one homogenous block. Thus it is "new labour", or Blairites, who hate Corbyn and oppose everything he wants (and are very pro-EU), but that doesn't mean Corbyn doesn't have his own supporters within Labour. And because there isn't enough support for a leadership challenge right now, that means Corbyn stays in charge, but not without significant opposition within his own party.
Now what Corbyn actually wants for brexit... he is tacitly pro-Brexit in charge of a party that is majority anti-Brexit. The one thing they *can* agree on is that whatever the Tories want, they oppose *that*. That sounds like playing politics to me.
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It looks like a death lock with no movement and no prospect of a solution. Its only 1.5 month to go now,its to late lets be real.
Corbyn can get a brexit if he supports mays deal,but he doesn't want a brexit so he doesn't support.
Now what will happen,i only see 2 options left. Hard brexit next month or a delay. I doubt they will let it crash so it will be a delay most likely.
Maybe 2-3 year delay lol,because if the positions do not change then a delay wont help either. Delay until there is a 2nd vote or something else that makes the uk decide to cancel the brexit completely.
Maybe it would be good for the torys to do new elections for parliament and hope that corbyn wins them.
Torys tried with a very reasonable deal and didn't succeed,now lets see if corbyn can do better.
He most likely wont and then labour can take all the blame,it would crush labour for over a decade to come.
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Well fuck me what a surprise.
Doing the same thing is constantly having the same results.
Probably best just keep trying it until it works, right?
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On February 15 2019 03:37 pmh wrote:
It looks like a death lock with no movement and no prospect of a solution. Its only 1.5 month to go now,its to late lets be real.
Corbyn can get a brexit if he supports mays deal,but he doesn't want a brexit so he doesn't support.
Now what will happen,i only see 2 options left. Hard brexit next month or a delay. I doubt they will let it crash so it will be a delay most likely.
Maybe 2-3 year delay lol,because if the positions do not change then a delay wont help either. Delay until there is a 2nd vote or something else that makes the uk decide to cancel the brexit completely.
Maybe it would be good for the torys to do new elections for parliament and hope that corbyn wins them.
Torys tried with a very reasonable deal and didn't succeed,now lets see if corbyn can do better.
He most likely wont and then labour can take all the blame,it would crush labour for over a decade to come. Remember that May's deal already basically included 2 year delay to sort things out more.
A delay without Parliament agreeing to May's proposal would need a unanimous vote from all 27 EU members to extend the proceedings past March.
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On February 15 2019 04:35 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2019 03:37 pmh wrote:
It looks like a death lock with no movement and no prospect of a solution. Its only 1.5 month to go now,its to late lets be real.
Corbyn can get a brexit if he supports mays deal,but he doesn't want a brexit so he doesn't support.
Now what will happen,i only see 2 options left. Hard brexit next month or a delay. I doubt they will let it crash so it will be a delay most likely.
Maybe 2-3 year delay lol,because if the positions do not change then a delay wont help either. Delay until there is a 2nd vote or something else that makes the uk decide to cancel the brexit completely.
Maybe it would be good for the torys to do new elections for parliament and hope that corbyn wins them.
Torys tried with a very reasonable deal and didn't succeed,now lets see if corbyn can do better.
He most likely wont and then labour can take all the blame,it would crush labour for over a decade to come. Remember that May's deal already basically included 2 year delay to sort things out more. A delay without Parliament agreeing to May's proposal would need a unanimous vote from all 27 EU members to extend the proceedings past March.
This unanimous vote i suspect would never happen, I imagine one or more countries would find reasons to object.
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As far as i know, there had been signs that it could happen if you actually commit yourself to some way of solving the gridlock in your country beforehand, for example to have another referendum.
The EU has clearly signaled that it will not extend this phase for further negotiations (because you are constantly negotiating, and then can't convince yourself of the thing you negotiated for).
However, the UK could simply cancel article 50, which would be kind of like an extension.
But basically, at this point this is mostly a situation where the UK needs to figure out what it wants out of the things that are actually real possibilities, as opposed of imagining some thing that they would like to have, but which is utterly impossible for them to get.
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On February 15 2019 02:20 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 20:10 iamthedave wrote:On February 14 2019 17:31 maybenexttime wrote:On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. Well, Brexit will hurt the working people in the UK. The details will determine how badly. If he's not interested in mitigating the effects of Brexit, then that makes him a terrible politician, especially left-leaning. If the EU doesn't factor in into his plans for the UK and he wants to build some socialist autarky or something, then he's even more of a moron. This is assuming that Corbyn doesn't already think that the EU is manifestly bad for workers (due to its fundamental ties to sustaining a manifestly Capitalist system). Yes, Corbyn is some flavour of a Socialist. That should be fairly obvious by looking at his general history. It's becoming black comedy for me that the Labour voters voted Corbyn overwhelmingly into power and somehow failed to realise what they were getting, and now people are acting like he's been hoodwinking them. The guy's always been open and honest about his views. Kwark I think it was laid out a very good post some pages back laying out exactly why Corbyn and the EU don't mix well. Now he does like some things the EU's done (see his interest in protecting the EU's laws on worker's rights protection), but it has a ton of stuff he doesn't. Corbyn's basic position is to get out, keep the stuff that's good, and fix what's bad without EU intervention preventing it. Related, foreign policy has always been one of Corbyn's weakest points. He's very inward-focused, poliically. On February 14 2019 09:02 KwarK wrote:On February 14 2019 08:33 iamthedave wrote:On February 11 2019 20:47 ahswtini wrote:Interesting "rumour" here https://twitter.com/peston/status/1094912356864409605I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source tells me “LOTO [the leader of the opposition] agreed to this. But then Keir discovered after the letter had been sent and published that the People’s Vote para had gone”. Starmer “called LOTO and was told ‘oh we must have forgotten that paragraph’”. Apparently Starmer’s reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest” of Corbyn and his aides is “seeing a Tory Brexit through so they can wash their hands of it”. Pretty much confirms what I always thought, that JC doesn't care if we leave with no deal, he's just interested in playing politics. No, he isn't, and it confuses me that people think Corbyn is 'being a politician' by doing something manifestly bad for him. He's never liked the EU, ever, and he's a brexiteer. This should have been obvious for years but somehow people are only now catching on. He wants to leave and doesn't care about the details especially. He cares about fixing the UK, and has his own ideas for how that can be accomplished. The EU doesn't really factor in there, though he likes some things the EU does. He’s fucking the UK by not participating in the Brexit process beyond “I don’t like your plan”. Sure is. But I don't understand why people are surprised by this. He went on holiday during the Remain campaign period. How can people be getting the memo only now? You seem a bit confused about the nature of Labour. I'm not going to explain it all over again, because Kwark has done it a couple of dozen times in this thread already, but it isn't one homogenous block, just as the Tories are also not one homogenous block. Thus it is "new labour", or Blairites, who hate Corbyn and oppose everything he wants (and are very pro-EU), but that doesn't mean Corbyn doesn't have his own supporters within Labour. And because there isn't enough support for a leadership challenge right now, that means Corbyn stays in charge, but not without significant opposition within his own party. Now what Corbyn actually wants for brexit... he is tacitly pro-Brexit in charge of a party that is majority anti-Brexit. The one thing they *can* agree on is that whatever the Tories want, they oppose *that*. That sounds like playing politics to me.
Thank you for your arrogant condescension but no I understand Labour just fine. I never said Labour was a homogenous block nor implied that it was.
Try again.
All I'm pointing out is that this railing against Corbyn now is kind of dumb given he's always been like this concerning the EU. Always. I simply don't understand how people - not necessarily the people in this thread - so strongly supported a Corbyn-led Labour in large part because of his honesty are now up in arms because he's sticking to his guns.
There's no surprises here. This is exactly what I expected from Corbyn, and it's what everyone should have expected.
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What are you even arguing about? You both are broadly agreeing with each other...
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So do the populists have things under control over in Britain? Wasn't their leader (May) opposed to brexit before the vote?
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United States44195 Posts
On February 15 2019 10:45 Doodsmack wrote:
So do the populists have things under control over in Britain? Wasn't their leader (May) opposed to brexit before the vote?
May isn't a populist and populists aren't in control.
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On February 15 2019 14:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2019 10:45 Doodsmack wrote:
So do the populists have things under control over in Britain? Wasn't their leader (May) opposed to brexit before the vote? May isn't a populist and populists aren't in control.
Surely Brexit was instigated by populists though? And May now leads the effort?
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United States44195 Posts
On February 15 2019 14:42 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2019 14:20 KwarK wrote:On February 15 2019 10:45 Doodsmack wrote:
So do the populists have things under control over in Britain? Wasn't their leader (May) opposed to brexit before the vote? May isn't a populist and populists aren't in control. Surely Brexit was instigated by populists though? And May now leads the effort?
Also no. It was a power play by Cameron, who is pro-EU, to solidify his political base.
I think you're making the mistake of trying to cast British politicians into American stories.
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Truth to be told the idea was heavily promoted (and steadily gaining traction) by UKIP. If it wasn't Cameron wouldn't feel the need to offer a referendum on it.
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On February 15 2019 16:17 Silvanel wrote:
Truth to be told the idea was heavily promoted (and steadily gaining traction) by UKIP. If it wasn't Cameron wouldn't feel the need to offer a referendum on it.
And post Cameron's failed renegotiation the conservative Eurosceptics took over the Brexit cause and UKIP was sidelined and hasn't really been relevant since the referendum. Brexit killed off the populists in Britain.
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EPT
