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On February 18 2019 19:43 Oukka wrote:
So the more centrist labour MPs are breaking off. Chuka Umunna, Mike Gapes, Luciana Berger, Ann Coffey, Chris Leslie, Gavin Shuker and Angela Smith going to sit as independents now after they've resigned from the labour party. Major issue seems to be the anti-Semitism rows and Corbynism.
Major criticism of the current "two-party system" as well. Quotes mine, I know there is more but in reality it is still very much a two horse race in terms of the UK parliament. Main parties are entrenched in their positions and more interested in bickering for short term gains in domestic and intra-party politics than actually showing leadership or regarding the good of the country.
Will be interesting to see if they can A) lure in some centrist pro-remain tories under a pro-EU banner, B) force Corbyn to take a stance in the Brexit mess. These are some of the leading figures in the drive for the 2nd referendum in the labour party and now if they leave the party there is a fair chance that the 2nd referendum gets buried under Corbyn trying desperately to force a new general election while the country is headed off a cliff...
EDIT: and Corbyn in his first comments doesn't address any of the issues the splitting MPs brought up and repeats the same old mantra about how labour is for the many not the few and how the current government is causing misery with the universal credit and Brexit policies. It feels as the man believes that labour can win just by pointing out all the flaws in the other party without having any kind of look into the mirror or self-reflection.
To be fair Corbyn's probably glad they are gone. Chris Leslie will have a much more difficult time undermining him from outside the party. The guy's been a non stop anti-Labour machine for years now. Maybe he can go join the tories where he belongs.
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Yep I don't think he mourns the loss in that sense. I think the bigger issue for him is that this underlines the issue of Corbyn himself as the party leader, that the strive to 70's and 80's labour with all the talk about socialism may be alienating potential voters or even existing voters, especially if more centrist alternatives become available. Then the election and parliamentary arithmetics are another question, Umunna, Berger and Smith at least could win their seats as independents I think.
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On February 18 2019 16:27 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2019 07:03 Longshank wrote:So after watching and reading way too much UK politics stuff for a foreigner, I came across your Minister of State for Prisons, Rory Stewart. First in just some brexit related interview on Sky where he came off as your average politician. But then I listen to him in a conversation with James O'Brien and he made some excellent points and seemed like a good guy so I googled him and watched some more interviews and holy crap, what an impressive character! I just came off a five hour long youtubing of some of his lectures, debates, speeches and interviews and I'm even more amazed of that man. There are some highlights I would recommend for everyone such as his 1.5h debate with Jacob Rees-Mogg on human rights/ECJ or his lecture on Yale on Failed States. Basically, my question in how is Rory Stewart perceived in the UK, as a politician? I know he's not next in line for being a PM but is there any chance of him becomming the leader for the Tories? He seems to stand in such a stark contrast to the bickering and partisanship we see today. Not only in the UK but also here in Sweden. He flies under the radar in the UK. Prisons minister is a terrible job, he's been given the most impossible task - reforming a system that is completely and utterly broken in every possible way with zero money. He says the right things and seems like a decent guy, but they are probably testing how much shit he's willing to take by putting him where he is. He rarely gets in the news, except when iirc he threatened to resign if he wasn't able to put certain measures in place for prisons.
Ok thanks for the answer.
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3 MPs have just defected from the Tories to the new Independent Group.
Its becoming a who's who of big money, corrupt neoliberal politics at the moment, but I can't help but feel satisfaction at some of Theresa May's MPs telling her off so completely:
Dear Prime Minister.
It is with regret that we are writing to resign the Conservative whip and our membership of the Party. We voted for you as Leader and Prime Minister because we believed you were committed to a moderate, open-hearted Conservative Party in the One Nation tradition. A party of economic competence representing the best of British business, delivering good jobs, opportunity and prosperity for all, funding world class public services and tackling inequalities. We had hoped you would also continue to modernise our party so that it could reach out and broaden its appeal to younger voters and to embrace and reflect the diversity of the communities we seek to represent.
Sadly, the Conservative Party has increasingly abandoned these principles and values with a shift to the right of British politics. We no longer feel we can remain in the Party of a Government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the Erg and DUP.
Brexit has re-defined the Conservative Party – undoing all the efforts to modernise it. There has been a dismal failure to stand up to the hard line ERG which operates openly as a party within a party, publicly and privately funded, with its own leader, whip and policy.
The shift to the right has been exaggerated by blatant entryism. Not only has this been tolerated, it has been actively welcomed in some quarters. A purple momentum is subsuming the Conservative Party, much as the hard left has been allowed to consume and terminally undermine the Labour party.
We have tried consistently for some time to keep the party close to the centre ground of British politics. You assured us when you first sought the leadership that this was your intention. We haven’t changed, the Conservative party has and it no longer reflects the values and beliefs we share with millions of people throughout the United Kingdom
The final straw for us has been the government’s disastrous handling of Brexit.
We find it unconscionable that a party once trusted on the economy, more than any other, is now recklessly marching the country to the cliff edge of no deal. No responsible government should knowingly and deliberately inflict the dire consequences of such a disastrous exit on individuals, communities and businesses and put at risk the prospect of ending austerity.
We also reject the false binary choice that you have presented to Parliament between a bad deal and no deal. Running down the clock to March 29th amounts to a policy of no deal and we are not prepared to wait until our toes are at the edge of the cliff. We can no longer act as bystanders.
We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics. There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measured to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services. But we now feel honour bound to put out constituents’ and country’s interests first.
We would like to thank all those who have supported us and worked alongside us within our constituencies over many years. We genuinely wish our many friends and colleagues within the party well, indeed, we know many of them share our concerns.
We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.
However, the country deserves better. We believe there is a failure of politics in general, not just in the Conservative party but in both main parties as they move to the fringes, leaving millions of people with no representation. Our politics needs urgent and radical reform and we are determined to play our part.
Yours sincerely,
Heidi Allen
Anna Soubry
Sarah Wollaston
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On February 20 2019 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:3 MPs have just defected from the Tories to the new Independent Group. Its becoming a who's who of big money, corrupt neoliberal politics at the moment, but I can't help but feel satisfaction at some of Theresa May's MPs telling her off so completely: Show nested quote +Dear Prime Minister.
It is with regret that we are writing to resign the Conservative whip and our membership of the Party. We voted for you as Leader and Prime Minister because we believed you were committed to a moderate, open-hearted Conservative Party in the One Nation tradition. A party of economic competence representing the best of British business, delivering good jobs, opportunity and prosperity for all, funding world class public services and tackling inequalities. We had hoped you would also continue to modernise our party so that it could reach out and broaden its appeal to younger voters and to embrace and reflect the diversity of the communities we seek to represent.
Sadly, the Conservative Party has increasingly abandoned these principles and values with a shift to the right of British politics. We no longer feel we can remain in the Party of a Government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the Erg and DUP.
Brexit has re-defined the Conservative Party – undoing all the efforts to modernise it. There has been a dismal failure to stand up to the hard line ERG which operates openly as a party within a party, publicly and privately funded, with its own leader, whip and policy.
The shift to the right has been exaggerated by blatant entryism. Not only has this been tolerated, it has been actively welcomed in some quarters. A purple momentum is subsuming the Conservative Party, much as the hard left has been allowed to consume and terminally undermine the Labour party.
We have tried consistently for some time to keep the party close to the centre ground of British politics. You assured us when you first sought the leadership that this was your intention. We haven’t changed, the Conservative party has and it no longer reflects the values and beliefs we share with millions of people throughout the United Kingdom
The final straw for us has been the government’s disastrous handling of Brexit.
We find it unconscionable that a party once trusted on the economy, more than any other, is now recklessly marching the country to the cliff edge of no deal. No responsible government should knowingly and deliberately inflict the dire consequences of such a disastrous exit on individuals, communities and businesses and put at risk the prospect of ending austerity.
We also reject the false binary choice that you have presented to Parliament between a bad deal and no deal. Running down the clock to March 29th amounts to a policy of no deal and we are not prepared to wait until our toes are at the edge of the cliff. We can no longer act as bystanders.
We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics. There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measured to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services. But we now feel honour bound to put out constituents’ and country’s interests first.
We would like to thank all those who have supported us and worked alongside us within our constituencies over many years. We genuinely wish our many friends and colleagues within the party well, indeed, we know many of them share our concerns.
We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.
However, the country deserves better. We believe there is a failure of politics in general, not just in the Conservative party but in both main parties as they move to the fringes, leaving millions of people with no representation. Our politics needs urgent and radical reform and we are determined to play our part.
Yours sincerely,
Heidi Allen
Anna Soubry
Sarah Wollaston
So Theresa May is just refusing to allow elections to be called in order to create a narrative that if a hard brexit pccurs she can then call a new election to escape blame?
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On February 21 2019 06:03 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2019 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:3 MPs have just defected from the Tories to the new Independent Group. Its becoming a who's who of big money, corrupt neoliberal politics at the moment, but I can't help but feel satisfaction at some of Theresa May's MPs telling her off so completely: Dear Prime Minister.
It is with regret that we are writing to resign the Conservative whip and our membership of the Party. We voted for you as Leader and Prime Minister because we believed you were committed to a moderate, open-hearted Conservative Party in the One Nation tradition. A party of economic competence representing the best of British business, delivering good jobs, opportunity and prosperity for all, funding world class public services and tackling inequalities. We had hoped you would also continue to modernise our party so that it could reach out and broaden its appeal to younger voters and to embrace and reflect the diversity of the communities we seek to represent.
Sadly, the Conservative Party has increasingly abandoned these principles and values with a shift to the right of British politics. We no longer feel we can remain in the Party of a Government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the Erg and DUP.
Brexit has re-defined the Conservative Party – undoing all the efforts to modernise it. There has been a dismal failure to stand up to the hard line ERG which operates openly as a party within a party, publicly and privately funded, with its own leader, whip and policy.
The shift to the right has been exaggerated by blatant entryism. Not only has this been tolerated, it has been actively welcomed in some quarters. A purple momentum is subsuming the Conservative Party, much as the hard left has been allowed to consume and terminally undermine the Labour party.
We have tried consistently for some time to keep the party close to the centre ground of British politics. You assured us when you first sought the leadership that this was your intention. We haven’t changed, the Conservative party has and it no longer reflects the values and beliefs we share with millions of people throughout the United Kingdom
The final straw for us has been the government’s disastrous handling of Brexit.
We find it unconscionable that a party once trusted on the economy, more than any other, is now recklessly marching the country to the cliff edge of no deal. No responsible government should knowingly and deliberately inflict the dire consequences of such a disastrous exit on individuals, communities and businesses and put at risk the prospect of ending austerity.
We also reject the false binary choice that you have presented to Parliament between a bad deal and no deal. Running down the clock to March 29th amounts to a policy of no deal and we are not prepared to wait until our toes are at the edge of the cliff. We can no longer act as bystanders.
We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics. There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measured to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services. But we now feel honour bound to put out constituents’ and country’s interests first.
We would like to thank all those who have supported us and worked alongside us within our constituencies over many years. We genuinely wish our many friends and colleagues within the party well, indeed, we know many of them share our concerns.
We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.
However, the country deserves better. We believe there is a failure of politics in general, not just in the Conservative party but in both main parties as they move to the fringes, leaving millions of people with no representation. Our politics needs urgent and radical reform and we are determined to play our part.
Yours sincerely,
Heidi Allen
Anna Soubry
Sarah Wollaston So Theresa May is just refusing to allow elections to be called in order to create a narrative that if a hard brexit pccurs she can then call a new election to escape blame? Why on earth would May call for an election when one happened only a year and a half ago and she has survived a vote of no confidence in Parliament?
And how on earth is she going to escape blame for Brexit by having an election AFTER Brexit?
Your not making sense.
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United States43558 Posts
On February 21 2019 06:03 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2019 21:49 Jockmcplop wrote:3 MPs have just defected from the Tories to the new Independent Group. Its becoming a who's who of big money, corrupt neoliberal politics at the moment, but I can't help but feel satisfaction at some of Theresa May's MPs telling her off so completely: Dear Prime Minister.
It is with regret that we are writing to resign the Conservative whip and our membership of the Party. We voted for you as Leader and Prime Minister because we believed you were committed to a moderate, open-hearted Conservative Party in the One Nation tradition. A party of economic competence representing the best of British business, delivering good jobs, opportunity and prosperity for all, funding world class public services and tackling inequalities. We had hoped you would also continue to modernise our party so that it could reach out and broaden its appeal to younger voters and to embrace and reflect the diversity of the communities we seek to represent.
Sadly, the Conservative Party has increasingly abandoned these principles and values with a shift to the right of British politics. We no longer feel we can remain in the Party of a Government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the Erg and DUP.
Brexit has re-defined the Conservative Party – undoing all the efforts to modernise it. There has been a dismal failure to stand up to the hard line ERG which operates openly as a party within a party, publicly and privately funded, with its own leader, whip and policy.
The shift to the right has been exaggerated by blatant entryism. Not only has this been tolerated, it has been actively welcomed in some quarters. A purple momentum is subsuming the Conservative Party, much as the hard left has been allowed to consume and terminally undermine the Labour party.
We have tried consistently for some time to keep the party close to the centre ground of British politics. You assured us when you first sought the leadership that this was your intention. We haven’t changed, the Conservative party has and it no longer reflects the values and beliefs we share with millions of people throughout the United Kingdom
The final straw for us has been the government’s disastrous handling of Brexit.
We find it unconscionable that a party once trusted on the economy, more than any other, is now recklessly marching the country to the cliff edge of no deal. No responsible government should knowingly and deliberately inflict the dire consequences of such a disastrous exit on individuals, communities and businesses and put at risk the prospect of ending austerity.
We also reject the false binary choice that you have presented to Parliament between a bad deal and no deal. Running down the clock to March 29th amounts to a policy of no deal and we are not prepared to wait until our toes are at the edge of the cliff. We can no longer act as bystanders.
We intend to sit as independents alongside the Independent Group of MPs in the centre ground of British politics. There will be times when we will support the Government, for example, on measured to strengthen our economy, security and improve our public services. But we now feel honour bound to put out constituents’ and country’s interests first.
We would like to thank all those who have supported us and worked alongside us within our constituencies over many years. We genuinely wish our many friends and colleagues within the party well, indeed, we know many of them share our concerns.
We will continue to work constructively, locally and nationally, on behalf of our constituents.
However, the country deserves better. We believe there is a failure of politics in general, not just in the Conservative party but in both main parties as they move to the fringes, leaving millions of people with no representation. Our politics needs urgent and radical reform and we are determined to play our part.
Yours sincerely,
Heidi Allen
Anna Soubry
Sarah Wollaston So Theresa May is just refusing to allow elections to be called in order to create a narrative that if a hard brexit pccurs she can then call a new election to escape blame?
Corbyn and the Tory party both called no confidence votes too early. She’s within her rights to wait on the clock on her term.
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So, at this point, once again nothing is happening to try to solve the problems of Brexit. Instead the UK political leadership keeps on bickering between themselves?
It seems so weird that we are gonna get a hard Brexit simply because everyone seems to be willing to just not do anything and block anything someone else tries to do in the hopes that someone else will get blamed in the end.
You have this incredibly slow motion trainwreck, and everyone on the train is to busy fighting each other to try to prevent the trainwreck from happening.
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On February 21 2019 08:13 Simberto wrote:
So, at this point, once again nothing is happening to try to solve the problems of Brexit. Instead the UK political leadership keeps on bickering between themselves?
It seems so weird that we are gonna get a hard Brexit simply because everyone seems to be willing to just not do anything and block anything someone else tries to do in the hopes that someone else will get blamed in the end.
You have this incredibly slow motion trainwreck, and everyone on the train is to busy fighting each other to try to prevent the trainwreck from happening.
If you think its bad now, wait until the Independent Group announces Tony Blair
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And in all of this, the British government thought it'd be a good idea to start processing the (pre-)settled status applications from the day they officially leave without a deal, and all EU citizens are stripped of their rights (bar some unilateral "assurances" on the UK's part)...
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If I'm not completely wrong, which I very well might be, the timing of the Labour split can only mean that Corbyn will come out in support of a second referendum after the vote on 28 feb. There are many indications that the departures have been planned for a long time and they would have lost a lot of momentum if they hadn't been able to use Brexit as an argument.
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On February 22 2019 21:44 Longshank wrote:
If I'm not completely wrong, which I very well might be, the timing of the Labour split can only mean that Corbyn will come out in support of a second referendum after the vote on 28 feb. There are many indications that the departures have been planned for a long time and they would have lost a lot of momentum if they hadn't been able to use Brexit as an argument. which leaves a month to plan the referendum, campaign and vote then process the results and decide on a course of action.
Sounds a tiny bit last second and strait up impossible if the result is anything other then "omg stop bexit right now".
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There would have to be an extension sure, but it's looks like any solution other than no-deal would require an extension at this point. Even in the event of May's deal they won't have all the legislation done until 29 mars.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On February 22 2019 23:23 Longshank wrote:
There would have to be an extension sure, but it's looks like any solution other than no-deal would require an extension at this point. Even in the event of May's deal they won't have all the legislation done until 29 mars.
I thought if May's deal gets through, the transition period means most of the existing legislation will continue to apply
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On February 22 2019 23:34 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2019 23:23 Longshank wrote:
There would have to be an extension sure, but it's looks like any solution other than no-deal would require an extension at this point. Even in the event of May's deal they won't have all the legislation done until 29 mars. I thought if May's deal gets through, the transition period means most of the existing legislation will continue to apply
Yeah you're right, I got them mixed up. It should be the no-deal legislation that would be tricky to jam through before 29 mars. My bad.
edit: actually it sounds like even with a deal and a transition period, an extension could be required. According to Jeremy Hunt "It is true that if we ended up approving a deal in the days before the 29th of March, we might need some extra time to pass critical legislation" 3:30-ish Anyway, It's not hugely important.
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On February 22 2019 21:44 Longshank wrote:
If I'm not completely wrong, which I very well might be, the timing of the Labour split can only mean that Corbyn will come out in support of a second referendum after the vote on 28 feb. There are many indications that the departures have been planned for a long time and they would have lost a lot of momentum if they hadn't been able to use Brexit as an argument.
Those MP are leaving because they want a second referendum and Corbyn refuses to try to get one.
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On February 23 2019 01:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2019 21:44 Longshank wrote:
If I'm not completely wrong, which I very well might be, the timing of the Labour split can only mean that Corbyn will come out in support of a second referendum after the vote on 28 feb. There are many indications that the departures have been planned for a long time and they would have lost a lot of momentum if they hadn't been able to use Brexit as an argument. Those MP are leaving because they want a second referendum and Corbyn refuses to try to get one.
We'll see. The timing indicates something is about to change.
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Isn't it way too late for a second referendum now? I remember reading somewhere that cobbling together one, even hastily, would take way longer than the 35 days Britain has until Brexit is a fact.
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On February 23 2019 02:11 Excludos wrote:
Isn't it way too late for a second referendum now? I remember reading somewhere that cobbling together one, even hastily, would take way longer than the 35 days Britain has until Brexit is a fact.
Yes, a50 would have to be extended but the EU would happily agree to it if the purpose was to hold a new referendum.
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On February 23 2019 02:37 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2019 02:11 Excludos wrote:
Isn't it way too late for a second referendum now? I remember reading somewhere that cobbling together one, even hastily, would take way longer than the 35 days Britain has until Brexit is a fact. Yes, a50 would have to be extended but the EU would happily agree to it if the purpose was to hold a new referendum. Most will, but remember extending a50 requires a unanimous vote from all 27 members.
Its entirely possible and probably likely, but hardly a sure thing.
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EPT
