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KwarK
United States44325 Posts
On February 23 2019 02:58 Gorsameth wrote: Most will, but remember extending a50 requires a unanimous vote from all 27 members. Its entirely possible and probably likely, but hardly a sure thing. Yes, but they said the UK could unilaterally withdraw article 50 and then resubmit article 50 so the entire question of extension is irrelevant. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On February 23 2019 06:42 KwarK wrote: Yes, but they said the UK could unilaterally withdraw article 50 and then resubmit article 50 so the entire question of extension is irrelevant. From my understanding the court said that revocation had to be done not as a part of "an abusive practice", as in a way to reset the clock. This would be difficult to police so while you technically could do it, it would be a good way to exhaust any good will left on the EU side. The Cooper amendment is very relevant and so is the case of needing extra time to pass legislation. | ||
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Slydie
2008 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9999 Posts
On February 26 2019 03:04 Slydie wrote: I am reading in non-English newspapers thar Labour wants a 2nd referendum now. No time to look up sources rn but this must be pretty massive news! It could be. They are going to support an amendment for a second referendum but we don't yet know what that will be and how much support it will have. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On February 26 2019 03:04 Slydie wrote: I am reading in non-English newspapers thar Labour wants a 2nd referendum now. No time to look up sources rn but this must be pretty massive news! Yeah and within minutes there are reports that some 70 Labour MPs are about to rebel because of it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I guess it was May's delay that forced their hand. The strategists of Peoples Vote wanted to have her deal defeated before making a move but she's cunning and irrational, a dangerous combo. I fear this is premature. Will be interesting debates this week though! | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
The UK should absolutely leave the EU - that was voted for, regardless of how much bullshitting was needed by people like Zaros (see his last post in this thread) for that. The reasonable thing to do is to indeed grow a proper pair, accept that from the beginning Tories were acting like toddlers not able to deliver a fucking pizza to their neighbours, let alone a proper Brexit to the country, reflect and start anew. Starting by coming up with an actual plan for Brexit - and the "technological solutions" that they were asking the EU to invent just for them. Here's the thing. The reason the EU isn't budging on the backstop is because the UK offers jack shit other than "pinky promise" - and doesn't show the slightest intent of actually coming up with anything else. Again: the UK "offers" a verbal promise (the country that had some intense trouble to accept that they have to pay the budget they agreed to, just as a reminder), and is pouting because the EU is "inflexible" in their need for a actual, dependable assurances. Take a break. Like what's the fucking point in leaving now, with the high potential of ruining many lives (just to iterate, that has already started), just to be able to say "ha, you're homeless and have to eat shit with rice now, but at least we showed them europeans"? Leave, but do it properly. If you can't in time (which btw is again entirely on the UK, there was enough time to come up with these technical solutions that Tories are asking the EU to invent), then have the balls to admit that you were doing it wrong and start over. Like, any other profession in the world, if they'd get a commission to do anything and mangle it even remotely as much as the Tories have butchered Brexit, you'd insist to make it right. Of course, that would indeed mean one would need the ability to admit mistakes. Something that's pretty absent with a vast majority of brexiters and politicians. A second referendum won't do much. Brexiters would (indeed rightfully so) brigade everything. It doesn't fix the country, it would be worse than it is now. The only reasonable thing to do is simply a proper, decent Brexit. Not the shitshow Zaros and his crew are advertising. edit: Sidenote, i do understand that it's not even clear if "remain" would going to be an option in said referendum - which makes it a "Labour Brexit vs. Tory Brexit" referendum. Which is slightly better, but if it's based on his demands to May, then honestly there's zero point of leaving in the first place. | ||
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Slydie
2008 Posts
Screw the principles, there is far too much at stake. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14211 Posts
Its not reasonable to expect anything from the conservatives more then what they've delivered. Its not reasonable to expect politicians to admit their mistakes. It would be reasonable to cancel article 50 and announce further negotiations for a separation agreement. I'm not familiar with the way that parliament works but this is the precise situation that Americans don't understand about how parliamentary systems work. There isn't time at this point to call new elections to avoid a hard brexit and the DUP isn't going to accept the backstop which would normaly mean the government falling in leu of new elections. Like hard brexit or even this backstop is going to involve copious amounts of chaos and would please tell me otherwise also come with the government falling. Where am I wrong in this? | ||
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KwarK
United States44325 Posts
On February 26 2019 04:37 Sermokala wrote: The problem is that there is no proper decent brexit. It would take a decade of negotiations to find some way to disentangle the economies. Let alone ireland or gibraltar. We both know why you didn't use simple. Its not reasonable to expect anything from the conservatives more then what they've delivered. Its not reasonable to expect politicians to admit their mistakes. It would be reasonable to cancel article 50 and announce further negotiations for a separation agreement. I'm not familiar with the way that parliament works but this is the precise situation that Americans don't understand about how parliamentary systems work. There isn't time at this point to call new elections to avoid a hard brexit and the DUP isn't going to accept the backstop which would normaly mean the government falling in leu of new elections. Like hard brexit or even this backstop is going to involve copious amounts of chaos and would please tell me otherwise also come with the government falling. Where am I wrong in this? The government hasn’t fallen because May hasn’t resigned and Corbyn hasn’t gone to the Queen and said “fucking call her and tell her to resign already”. MPs, including the opposition, have collectively decided that it’s better for May to continue, as long as they can blame her. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On February 26 2019 03:54 m4ini wrote: Sidenote, i do understand that it's not even clear if "remain" would going to be an option in said referendum - which makes it a "Labour Brexit vs. Tory Brexit" referendum. Which is slightly better, but if it's based on his demands to May, then honestly there's zero point of leaving in the first place. According to Emily Thornberry who is a frontbencher it's Remain vs May's deal. This is if the first amendment, to have Corbyn's deal guiding the future arrangement, is voted down(as it will be). | ||
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Sermokala
United States14211 Posts
On February 26 2019 04:56 KwarK wrote: The government hasn’t fallen because May hasn’t resigned and Corbyn hasn’t gone to the Queen and said “fucking call her and tell her to resign already”. MPs, including the opposition, have collectively decided that it’s better for May to continue, as long as they can blame her. So the only way the may government falls is if she resigns or corbyn tells the queen to tell her to resign? | ||
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Deleuze
United Kingdom2102 Posts
On February 26 2019 05:55 Sermokala wrote: So the only way the may government falls is if she resigns or corbyn tells the queen to tell her to resign? Her cabinet said she needs to go in 3 months, so she'll step down then. | ||
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KwarK
United States44325 Posts
On February 26 2019 05:55 Sermokala wrote: So the only way the may government falls is if she resigns or corbyn tells the queen to tell her to resign? We don't have a formal constitution, Ministers serve at the discretion of the monarch. They need to be able to pass legislation though and therefore the leader of the party which controls Parliament will traditionally ascend to the position of the Prime Minister. The Conservative Party is the dominant party in Parliament and May is the leader of the Conservative Party. The process for contesting those is a vote of no confidence (Parliament) or a leadership challenge (Conservative Party). Both of those have already happened and May has won both. Unless the Queen tells her to resign she's staying. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
So I guess this is the question to ask: Poll: Referendum Referendum: Will There be a second Referendum? No (10) Yes (5) 15 total votes You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes Edit: For the record, I've voted no. As reasonable as a second Referendum seems (especially given some of the rather questionable developments that have been in the news about the first one and possible foreign influence), I just can't see it happening. It seems like British Parliament is pretty badly gridlocked and there are already supposedly people within Labour quite unhappy about this new development. I'd be quite happy to be wrong of course. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
The problem is that there is no proper decent brexit. It would take a decade of negotiations to find some way to disentangle the economies. Let alone ireland or gibraltar. We both know why you didn't use simple. This is of course entirely wrong. In fact there is a somewhat proper deal on the table, but little britainists are not happy with it. Is it the best solution? Of course not. To argue that there isn't a way to exit "proper" and "decent" is stupid. And indeed a view as bad as that of pretty much any brexiter ever. A proper and decent brexit doesn't mean turning into a european colony as "they" put it, a proper and decent brexit means that there are solutions for upcoming problems in place. Just "not leaving" isn't a solution to said problems. I think it should be clear there is no "proper" way of leaving the EU. A 2nd referendum is the best way out of this mess, there were too many lies and wrong premises in the first one You actually think that a second referendum is the best way out of this? Let me remind you, there already was a referendum. That lead to a decision. Do i like the decision? Fuck no. I think it's the dumbest decision a country has made in the last 50 years. That does not make that decision void. You don't get to hold as many referendums as you'd like until you get the result that you want. And no, "being mislead" isn't an excuse either, because there were a metric shitton of reasonable voices instantly pointing out what that would mean, and literally every single thing that was decried as "fear mongering" or "project fear" (remember that one?) is what happened. People were too retarded to actually believe it. This is not even considering the actual fact that a politician was already murdered over this by a, what i assume, brexiters would consider "stern fighter for the cause" or some crap. Do you actually think the people who voted brexit (pretty sure at least some of them are still alive) are just gonna roll over? You can't even argue that "well, they'd have to accept it" because you clearly don't do that either. We're back in Lala-Land, as usual once you talk to either a "combat hardened brexiter" or a "loving caring remainer". Make no mistake, it's not just brexiters who live on wishful thinking without having the slightest idea as to what's to come afterwards. Why is it that usually rational people completely go stupid once they talk about Brexit? Let me point this out: i'm german, i live in the UK. It's an anxiety nightmare for me, bringing joys like insomnia, hours and hours of enjoyment with german bureaucracy on the phone, running errands to get papers in order, fearing to get ripped away from my family here (this is on top of impacts in terms of money etc) - and i am telling you, as someone who's affected in more than just one way with real world consequences, that your "solution" to this problem will make everything even worse. Do i wish the queen would step in, fist everyone and put her foot down? Of course. I'd love for this shit to end tomorrow, so i can get on with my/our life. It's not going to happen, so instead of focusing on idiotic solutions that don't solve anything, i'd love people to actually get realistic and come up with solutions that indeed work even if it means a negative impact overall (which is undoubtedly going to happen regardless, since it already happened). edit: and i apologise if i come off as aggressive, but i'm just sick and tired of dumbasses on both sides of the fence, it's like talking to religious people - all the while the lives of normal people are affected and just want to get back to their normal lives. Wishful thinking doesn't help me. It doesn't help you, either. It doesn't help your country. It just doesn't help. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On February 26 2019 18:06 Longshank wrote: So Theresa May is expected to give in and take no-deal off the table later today after Tory MPs and ministers are threatening to revolt. If that's the case, it will be interesting to see how ERG will react. They would lose much face if they backed her deal, potentially losing the battle for the Conservative party for good. On the other hand there's the risk of no Brexit at all. I'm not sure what's more important to them. I could see them abstaining in the coming votes, would this happen. I'm reminded of John Oliver. At this point I don't know what's the better viewing, Stupid Watergate or the Brexit Super Sweepstakes. I feel like it's all become a game of slots. We're trying to get those three fruit to line up, dammit, and we'll be damned if the game being rigged is going to stop us! | ||
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pmh
1416 Posts
It will be a delay most likely,a very long delay. The eu wants a 2 year delay I read somewhere (no source) I would like to make a poll as well,but I am not sure how to. How long will the brexit be delayed for a:3 months or less b:between 3 months and 1 year c:between 1 and 2 years d:more then 2 years. e:brexit will not be delayed,britain will leave the eu at the set date with or without deal. I am in doubt between c and d,leaning towards d. "On the other hand there's the risk of no Brexit at all" That is not seen as a risk I think,that is seen as a potential bonus. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On February 28 2019 20:49 pmh wrote: "On the other hand there's the risk of no Brexit at all" That is not seen as a risk I think,that is seen as a potential bonus. Not to the ERG, of which I was talking about. However, comments from some of their members yesterday seem to suggest they might back May and take the battle to the next negotiation(which really is the important one). They will likely expect to get some concession from May in order to support her, such as her stepping down as PM. | ||
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