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On February 09 2019 19:14 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 15:42 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 14:02 Razyda wrote:On February 08 2019 00:42 Longshank wrote:On February 07 2019 22:17 Gorsameth wrote:On February 07 2019 21:45 Longshank wrote:On February 07 2019 21:12 Gorsameth wrote:
As other said it sounds like not leaving at all to me except for 1 line.
"Dynamic alignment on rights and protections".
So I will, yet again, say it. There will not be a compromise on the 4 freedoms.
The EU will not accept "Dynamic" alignment and Corbyn knows it. Its all or nothing and the UK is currently voting for Nothing. Can you outline what 'Dynamic alignment' means? Who knows, that's the wonder of Corbyn's statement, vague enough to mean whatever he wants. But lets go with the Cambridge dictionary which says its "Full of energy/idea's" or "Changing". The first definition imo doesn't fit here so lets go with Changing. "Changing alignment on rights and protections". Again, nice and vague to mean anything. But we know what Brexit was about, ending the free movement of people into the UK and a return of sovereignty. So I don't think its a stretch to mean taking on some rights and protections from the EU while ignoring others. Which, the EU has been every clear about, is a no deal situation. You take it all or you get none of it. On February 07 2019 21:20 Sent. wrote:
If the four freedoms were absolutely non-negotiable, there would be no long transitional periods for countries that joined the EU in 2004. The restrictions of freedom of movement ended in 2011. Because transition periods are something different from only taking on some parts of the 4 freedoms and downright denying others. Like the UK's idea of access to the free transfer of goods and services without the free movement of people, not just for a transitional period but as a permanent deal. The EU has been more then clear on this. He's said in the past that there will have to be movement of people, even if he didn't want to call it free. It's not outside the realm of possibility that there could be some level of access to the single market in exchange for some level of freedom of movement, even if it would be difficult to negotiate How is this still a thing?? Dunno, the EU seems to think it's something worth discussing at least. Where have you been getting this idea from? The EU has repeatedly said no to it, has said there is no major renegotiation possible on the current deal and talks this week had no result.
Well yes, but it's not the current deal we're talking about.
I guess we'll have to wait for clarification on the 'dynamic alignment' bit. Whatever it is, the EU have made pretty clear they're eager to discuss it.
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The EU is eager to discuss anything actually new from the UK that could lead to a deal because the EU doesn't want a hard Brexit if it can help it (without compromising on their red lines).
And then there is still the issue of the Irish border.
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I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament.
Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change.
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On February 09 2019 20:36 Gorsameth wrote:
The EU is eager to discuss anything actually new from the UK that could lead to a deal because the EU doesn't want a hard Brexit if it can help it (without compromising on their red lines).
And then there is still the issue of the Irish border.
I give up. That's what I've been saying all along. Do you roll a dice when hitting that post button? And no, there wouldn't be the Irish border issue which is why the EU have responded so positively to Corbyn's letter.
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On February 09 2019 21:48 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 20:36 Gorsameth wrote:
The EU is eager to discuss anything actually new from the UK that could lead to a deal because the EU doesn't want a hard Brexit if it can help it (without compromising on their red lines).
And then there is still the issue of the Irish border. I give up. That's what I've been saying all along. Do you roll a dice when hitting that post button? And no, there wouldn't be the Irish border issue which is why the EU have responded so positively to Corbyn's letter. The only way to not have an Irish border is to not actually leave the EU, that's what all the fuss about the backstop is about. Because it would prevent the UK from actually being free from the EU until the border is resolved (if it ever is) And none of that meshes with Corbyn's "dynamic alignment".
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On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change.
Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration.
edit: That's the idea anyway. I'm not one to tell how feasable it is to negotiate successfully but as mentioned, the EU is positive and many on the UK side think that some such arrangement is the only thing that could get the backing from a majority in Parliament. That's a good start.
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On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right?
And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU.
A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks?
Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level.
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On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level.
No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950
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I wanted to say that i am already tired of this, too much empty discussion leading nowhere. I want to be over with it and move forward. This is seemingly endless stream of ideas and propositins that in reality bring nothing new to the table. It takes time (and newstime) from other important issues.
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No amount of exasperation is going to solve the many problems caused by this debacle, so while its understandable, continued attempts at figuring out exactly what the hell is going to be done are warranted.
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On February 09 2019 22:54 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level. No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950 They would have until December 2020 to negotiate a customs union, which avoids the backstop kicking in, under the Withdrawal agreement.
The Withdrawal agreement that the UK parliament rejected in January!
Without the withdrawal agreement the UK doesn't have until December 2020, it has until march 29th to come up with something.
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On February 09 2019 23:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 22:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level. No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950 They would have until December 2020 to negotiate a customs union, which avoids the backstop kicking in, under the Withdrawal agreement. The Withdrawal agreement that the UK parliament rejected in January! Without the withdrawal agreement the UK doesn't have until December 2020, it has until march 29th to come up with something.
That's correct.
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On February 10 2019 00:54 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2019 23:36 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level. No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950 They would have until December 2020 to negotiate a customs union, which avoids the backstop kicking in, under the Withdrawal agreement. The Withdrawal agreement that the UK parliament rejected in January! Without the withdrawal agreement the UK doesn't have until December 2020, it has until march 29th to come up with something. That's correct. So your agreeing that Corbyn's proposal is useless because there is no time and he is unwilling to sign the agreement that would give more time?
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On February 10 2019 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2019 00:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 23:36 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level. No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950 They would have until December 2020 to negotiate a customs union, which avoids the backstop kicking in, under the Withdrawal agreement. The Withdrawal agreement that the UK parliament rejected in January! Without the withdrawal agreement the UK doesn't have until December 2020, it has until march 29th to come up with something. That's correct. So your agreeing that Corbyn's proposal is useless because there is no time and he is unwilling to sign the agreement that would give more time?
What? No, there's plenty(sort of) of time. All he has to do is get May's deal through Parliament. That's what he's saying to May in the letter, 'remove some of your red lines for future relationship and Labour will support your deal'. This could be damaging to both parties but it's possible there would be a cross-party majority in the middle supporting it as a last resort.
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On February 10 2019 01:34 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2019 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:On February 10 2019 00:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 23:36 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level. No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950 They would have until December 2020 to negotiate a customs union, which avoids the backstop kicking in, under the Withdrawal agreement. The Withdrawal agreement that the UK parliament rejected in January! Without the withdrawal agreement the UK doesn't have until December 2020, it has until march 29th to come up with something. That's correct. So your agreeing that Corbyn's proposal is useless because there is no time and he is unwilling to sign the agreement that would give more time? What? No, there's plenty(sort of) of time. All he has to do is get May's deal through Parliament. That's what he's saying to May in the letter, 'remove some of your red lines for future relationship and Labour will support your deal'. This could be damaging to both parties but it's possible there would be a cross-party majority in the middle supporting it as a last resort. Except he wants it made law to bind May to what may well be unattainable goals and the whole 'Brexit is Brexit' line and Corbyn's proposal being, pretty much as far from Brexit as you can get without actually cancelling article 50.
Nor would it be sure they even get it through parliament like this since the looming threat of an indefinite backstop if they fail to reach a customs union agreement still remains, which I believe was the main reason May's deal failed in the first place.
As many remarked on what Corbyn's letter came out. You might aswell Remain.
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On February 10 2019 01:34 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2019 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:On February 10 2019 00:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 23:36 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level. No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950 They would have until December 2020 to negotiate a customs union, which avoids the backstop kicking in, under the Withdrawal agreement. The Withdrawal agreement that the UK parliament rejected in January! Without the withdrawal agreement the UK doesn't have until December 2020, it has until march 29th to come up with something. That's correct. So your agreeing that Corbyn's proposal is useless because there is no time and he is unwilling to sign the agreement that would give more time? What? No, there's plenty(sort of) of time. All he has to do is get May's deal through Parliament. That's what he's saying to May in the letter, 'remove some of your red lines for future relationship and Labour will support your deal'. This could be damaging to both parties but it's possible there would be a cross-party majority in the middle supporting it as a last resort.
What red lines has Corbyn proposed to remove?
Have you actually read the letter? This is the letter for reference:
https://www.scribd.com/document/399055327/Letter-to-PM-06-February-2019-1
The demands are total fantasy. It demands that UK has a say on future EU trade deals, whilst in actuality, though not in name, being part of the Single market and Customs union. In which can only be met by remaining part of the EU.
Alternatively to remain in the customs union, but with exceptions in the single market, except he does not note what these should or should not be. In which case it's practically worthless as an agreement to vote through for less than 2 months to go. Even if negotiated and passed in Commons, UK might as well remain so UK can actually have a say in the other 90% of the single market.
The third bullet point demands that UK remains having as good as or better worker rights than EU. Yeah good luck with that one, last time I looked The conservatives wanted to strip away worker's rights and protection.
The 4th and 5th basically asks UK to continue funding EU programs, but if the Conservatives agree to it openly they would be losing brexit voters to UKIP style parties again.
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He may as well have asked them to sign an agreement promising not to run for election for the next 20 years.
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On February 10 2019 03:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2019 01:34 Longshank wrote:On February 10 2019 01:20 Gorsameth wrote:On February 10 2019 00:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 23:36 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:54 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 22:26 Gorsameth wrote:On February 09 2019 22:07 Longshank wrote:On February 09 2019 20:56 Sent. wrote:I think Tusk bringing up Corbyn's proposal at a meeting with May and his tweet about the special place in hell make it clear the EU is done negotiating with someone who has no solid backing of their parliament. Neither side takes Corbyn's stunt seriously. There's no time to reopen the negotiations. The British parliament seems to be unaware of that, but "Take the deal", "Leave with no deal" and "Cancel Brexit" are their only options and that's not going to change. Corbyn's proposal is not to reopen the negotiations but to focus of the future relationship. The backstop would remain but a permanent customs union would guarantee that it never comes in effect. The WA would be left untouched but with addendums to the political declaration. Yeah.... your aware Brexit happens in 7 weeks right? And now Corbyn comes forward he wants to negotiate an entire new permanent customs union that would eliminate the need for any border between the UK and EU. A process that normally takes years, in under 7 weeks? Yeah, I wonder why I am sceptical of that possibility, even if I ignore what or not such a deal can even exist at its base level. No, it would need to be ironed out by December 2020. Seriously, stop arguing with such conviction when you evidently don't understand the basic concepts of Brexit. Sorry for being an ass. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42906950 They would have until December 2020 to negotiate a customs union, which avoids the backstop kicking in, under the Withdrawal agreement. The Withdrawal agreement that the UK parliament rejected in January! Without the withdrawal agreement the UK doesn't have until December 2020, it has until march 29th to come up with something. That's correct. So your agreeing that Corbyn's proposal is useless because there is no time and he is unwilling to sign the agreement that would give more time? What? No, there's plenty(sort of) of time. All he has to do is get May's deal through Parliament. That's what he's saying to May in the letter, 'remove some of your red lines for future relationship and Labour will support your deal'. This could be damaging to both parties but it's possible there would be a cross-party majority in the middle supporting it as a last resort. What red lines has Corbyn proposed to remove? Have you actually read the letter? This is the letter for reference: https://www.scribd.com/document/399055327/Letter-to-PM-06-February-2019-1
Why do you ask what red lines Corbyn proposed to remove if you've read the letter yourself? It right there black on white. but staying in a customs union for one, if you were actually looking for an answer.
As for workers rights hasn't she caved in on that one already?
edit: I fully recognize that what he's proposing is close to a BINO and that it would be better in almost every way to remain. Problem is that neither remaining nor second referendum seem to be able to get a majority in Parliament, much probably thanks to Corbyn himself.
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EPT
