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On February 10 2017 06:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 05:47 LegalLord wrote:On February 10 2017 05:42 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 05:39 LegalLord wrote:On February 10 2017 05:15 Plansix wrote:On February 10 2017 05:08 LegalLord wrote:On February 10 2017 05:00 LightSpectra wrote:On February 10 2017 04:49 LegalLord wrote:
What we "should and shouldn't" do in redrawing international borders isn't really the issue that should be considered. The real question is, will a certain type of border have any real stability?
Such a stability has a tendency to develop, broadly speaking, across ethnic lines. Okay, but I'm not seeing why that's a strong argument to dissolve the EU. Clearly most Europeans want to be united with each other, the -exit movements are all based off of either fear of immigrants or economic woes, which can both be solved without dissolution. The movements aren't just immigration or economics. That may be the issue of the moment but the overarching issue runs deeper. Basically the people of the individual nations want to make their own decisions as to what laws they do and don't want, rather than being forced into decisions by the EU. "Most" Europeans want some degree of unity and are not yet ready to walk away from the EU project. Some want EU creep towards a single European government. Some want exit. The project perhaps shouldn't be "dissolved" per se as in "everyone fends for themselves" - but downsized to properly account for the reality that nationalism can't be erased? Absolutely. Most of those problems were faced by the US and we solved them by created a central government to play referee between the states. The EU will likely create a strong center government or leave like the UK. But these countries are not physically moving. Modern technology makes us more mobile than ever. I have a feeling that this might just be harder than it was for the US - if for no other reason that France and Britain would be far more likely to resist giving up their sovereignty than Virginia or New York. I agree. Creating new things is hard. It couldn't be like the way the US is set up at all. It would be a challenging process and one that would need to be championed and defended. I am sure there are nations that would not go along. If such a union is to be created at some point in the future, the EU in its current state is not the union that will work. If nationalism can eventually be contained reliably enough to make such a union work, it certainly isn't the EU that is capable of doing so. History has taught me not to subscribe to that type of fatalism. Things change and so does public opinion. People could turn on nationalism as quickly as it arrived back on the scene.
Recently it's been something of an oscillation there and back. But what's definitely undeniable is that people are unhappy with the status quo and increasingly polarized as to how to deal with it - across the entire Western world in patterns that are generally similar.
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But only one country is stupid enough to elect the orange idiot.
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The US is deeply stupid. We thought we hit bottom with Bush, but our follow up is far worse. I apologize on behalf of my nation.
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One of these days we're going to be great again and we'll see who's laughing then.
In all seriousness, yes, it's not one of the US's finest moments. But that's the reality of the society that exists in this country.
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On February 10 2017 06:19 MyTHicaL wrote:
But only one country is stupid enough to elect the orange idiot.
Let's hope there's not another that elects Le Pen. 
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On February 11 2017 08:01 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2017 06:19 MyTHicaL wrote:
But only one country is stupid enough to elect the orange idiot. Let's hope there's not another that elects Le Pen.
I think that all polls show her losing in a head to head. But yes, let's hope. Simply because, just like Brexit and Trump, it gives people the excuse to exercise xenophobic hatred.
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Voting LePen, while just as bad, would be less stupid than voting trimp. Trump is just beyond comprehension.
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Depends on your priorities. She's more nationalist, more racist and less stupid.
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Le Pen seems like a competent lady with an agenda that many would find horrifying.
Trump just seems like someone who doesn't know what he's doing.
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On February 12 2017 03:25 LegalLord wrote:
Le Pen seems like a competent lady with an agenda that many would find horrifying.
Trump just seems like someone who doesn't know what he's doing.
I wonder which is worse...
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The guy who doesn't know what he is doing has less of a chance of getting what he wants done. And he has a better chance of breaking toys for the next person to remake in a modern imagining.
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So:
Wages grew 2.6% in the three months to December, faster than the rate of inflation, figures show.
"The UK labour market continues to confound the doom-mongers with its resilience to the Brexit shock," he said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38979582
Record high for employment and low for unemployment. However:
Anyone have suggestions for the cause of this? Outcompeting of the UK labour market by the (obviously much larger and diversified) global labour market? It strikes me time and again that the only way socialists could possibly achieve their goals would be outside the EU. Without stricter immigration controls it seems clear that the standard of living for the working class will continue to diverge from the middle class as there will be absolutely no reason to train/recruit natives. Although this graph shows the increase is almost entirely from outside the EU (probably partly a Brexit effect), so more control is needed across the board.
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On February 15 2017 20:57 bardtown wrote:So: Wages grew 2.6% in the three months to December, faster than the rate of inflation, figures show."The UK labour market continues to confound the doom-mongers with its resilience to the Brexit shock," he said. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38979582Record high for employment and low for unemployment. However: https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/831801329878237184Anyone have suggestions for the cause of this? Outcompeting of the UK labour market by the (obviously much larger and diversified) global labour market? It strikes me time and again that the only way socialists could possibly achieve their goals would be outside the EU. Without stricter immigration controls it seems clear that the standard of living for the working class will continue to diverge from the middle class as there will be absolutely no reason to train/recruit natives. Although this graph shows the increase is almost entirely from outside the EU (probably partly a Brexit effect), so more control is needed across the board.
Funny how the graph talks about EU members working in the UK but the twitter talks about UK natives...
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On February 15 2017 21:03 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 20:57 bardtown wrote:So: Wages grew 2.6% in the three months to December, faster than the rate of inflation, figures show."The UK labour market continues to confound the doom-mongers with its resilience to the Brexit shock," he said. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38979582Record high for employment and low for unemployment. However: https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/831801329878237184Anyone have suggestions for the cause of this? Outcompeting of the UK labour market by the (obviously much larger and diversified) global labour market? It strikes me time and again that the only way socialists could possibly achieve their goals would be outside the EU. Without stricter immigration controls it seems clear that the standard of living for the working class will continue to diverge from the middle class as there will be absolutely no reason to train/recruit natives. Although this graph shows the increase is almost entirely from outside the EU (probably partly a Brexit effect), so more control is needed across the board. Funny how the graph talks about EU members working in the UK but the twitter talks about UK natives...
Yeah, the graph is confusing me. Doesn't seem to fit with what he's saying. Think that is just a mistake by him... (Edit: as you say, it's just the second part of his statement. EU employment dips in Q4 2016 but is still higher than Q4 2015).
But the figures are in the ONS report:
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I assume the graph only shows the second part of his statement.
The orange and blue lines both have gone up in 2016, combined they are the 431k?
Either that or he posted the wrong graph yeah.
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What even is the Guardian?
Guardian:
The one thing missing from this picture is an increase in wages.
BBC same day:
Wages grew 2.6% in the three months to December, faster than the rate of inflation, figures show.
That's just a straight lie. Still, even the Guardian seems to agree that "labour supply is helping keep lid on wages". It just assumes that labour supply is from within the UK when it is clearly from outside the UK. What a worthless article, actually.
And that is just their EU HQ which can no longer exist in the UK. It's not the actual Lloyds HQ which is remaining in London.
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Yeah how the hell do wages rise like that? Just a question. I've never had a job where in 3 months my wages have changed. At all. Total wages/Average wages? Completely irrelevent without median wages. Especially because that's the time of year the financial industry, specifically, gives out its' bonuses.
The EU operations moving out of London still signifies a large amount of job losses. And there will be more to follow.
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On February 15 2017 21:06 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 21:03 Gorsameth wrote:On February 15 2017 20:57 bardtown wrote:So: Wages grew 2.6% in the three months to December, faster than the rate of inflation, figures show."The UK labour market continues to confound the doom-mongers with its resilience to the Brexit shock," he said. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38979582Record high for employment and low for unemployment. However: https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/831801329878237184Anyone have suggestions for the cause of this? Outcompeting of the UK labour market by the (obviously much larger and diversified) global labour market? It strikes me time and again that the only way socialists could possibly achieve their goals would be outside the EU. Without stricter immigration controls it seems clear that the standard of living for the working class will continue to diverge from the middle class as there will be absolutely no reason to train/recruit natives. Although this graph shows the increase is almost entirely from outside the EU (probably partly a Brexit effect), so more control is needed across the board. Funny how the graph talks about EU members working in the UK but the twitter talks about UK natives... Yeah, the graph is confusing me. Doesn't seem to fit with what he's saying. Think that is just a mistake by him... (Edit: as you say, it's just the second part of his statement. EU employment dips in Q4 2016 but is still higher than Q4 2015). But the figures are in the ONS report: https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/831799465321299973
If you look at the ONS report itself: www.ons.gov.uk
The comment is not linked to a specific graph. It is made after graph 6a (non-UK nationals working in the UK) and before 6b (non-UK born people working in the UK) and can be verified on neither of them.
Data contains:
UK nationals working in the UK increased by 70,000 to 28.44 million
non-UK nationals working in the UK increased by 233,000 to 3.48 million
and
UK born people working in the UK decreased by 120,000 to 26.37 million
non-UK born people working in the UK increased by 431,000 to 5.54 million
and
non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 190,000 to 2.24 million
non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 42,000 to 1.24 million
So ...
- out of 5.54 million non-UK born people working, 2.9 million were UK nationals born abroad
- in the 233 000 non-UK nationals increase, 190 000 were from EU, 42 000 from outside EU
- the 70 000 increase for UK nationals contains the decrease of 120 000 for UK born people working in the UK and an increase of ~198 000 (431 000 - 233 000) for UK nationals born abroad.
(or something like that)
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It is not 'completely irrelevant' just because it doesn't fit with your bias, and the increase is from the same period the previous year so your odd comment about bonuses is, actually, completely irrelevant.
On February 15 2017 22:01 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2017 21:06 bardtown wrote:On February 15 2017 21:03 Gorsameth wrote:On February 15 2017 20:57 bardtown wrote:So: Wages grew 2.6% in the three months to December, faster than the rate of inflation, figures show."The UK labour market continues to confound the doom-mongers with its resilience to the Brexit shock," he said. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38979582Record high for employment and low for unemployment. However: https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/831801329878237184Anyone have suggestions for the cause of this? Outcompeting of the UK labour market by the (obviously much larger and diversified) global labour market? It strikes me time and again that the only way socialists could possibly achieve their goals would be outside the EU. Without stricter immigration controls it seems clear that the standard of living for the working class will continue to diverge from the middle class as there will be absolutely no reason to train/recruit natives. Although this graph shows the increase is almost entirely from outside the EU (probably partly a Brexit effect), so more control is needed across the board. Funny how the graph talks about EU members working in the UK but the twitter talks about UK natives... Yeah, the graph is confusing me. Doesn't seem to fit with what he's saying. Think that is just a mistake by him... (Edit: as you say, it's just the second part of his statement. EU employment dips in Q4 2016 but is still higher than Q4 2015). But the figures are in the ONS report: https://twitter.com/andyverity/status/831799465321299973 If you look at the ONS report itself: www.ons.gov.ukThe comment is not linked to a specific graph. It is made after graph 6a (non-UK nationals working in the UK) and before 6b (non-UK born people working in the UK) and can be verified on neither of them. Data contains: Show nested quote +UK nationals working in the UK increased by 70,000 to 28.44 million
non-UK nationals working in the UK increased by 233,000 to 3.48 million and Show nested quote +UK born people working in the UK decreased by 120,000 to 26.37 million
non-UK born people working in the UK increased by 431,000 to 5.54 million and Show nested quote +non-UK nationals from the EU working in the UK increased by 190,000 to 2.24 million
non-UK nationals from outside the EU working in the UK increased by 42,000 to 1.24 million So ... - out of 5.54 million non-UK born people working, 2.9 million were UK nationals born abroad - in the 233 000 non-UK nationals increase, 190 000 were from EU, 42 000 from outside EU - the 70 000 increase for UK nationals contains the decrease of 120 000 for UK born people working in the UK and an increase of ~198 000 (431 000 - 233 000) for UK nationals born abroad. (or something like that)
Thanks for looking it up. That makes the data more encouraging, if anything. Also makes the importance of EU immigration seem much higher, if the majority of non-EU immigration actually consists of non-UK born UK nationals.
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EPT
