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On February 02 2017 07:55 bardtown wrote: It is Finland trialling UBI, but they are trialling it exclusively on unemployed individuals so the results will not be particularly meaningful. The entire point is that it's universal, so it doesn't discriminate against people in work. I think we will see a lot of trials in the coming years, though, as it is the economic model of the future for developed countries. It's almost certainly not feasible for the UK right now, though. In fact I think the only country that could implement it fully right now would be Norway.
This system just asks for abuse if it is not well thought.
Imagine x = salary/month You work the same job as David. David quits his job for a day or a bit more, he applies for UBI and starts getting $580 or whatever the amount. Then, he rejoins a day or a bit later and he still gets UBI.
Now we establish that your salary/month is: x Then we establish that his salary/month is: x + $580 Conclusion: you're fucked
I understand $580 is supposed to let them catch up, but you can still end up being fucked if you had recently joined but slightly before UBI was introduced. Even without tricks, it's still not ideal.
I don't think you understand what the trial is about and how it works... And what the final goal is... But keep going.
Thanks, I fully know what the idea is, how they are trialing it and what the final goal is. That was the reason for my statement. Because your post made absolutely no sense.
So what doesn't make sense?
1. If given the opportunity from your employer, can't you resign from work to get UBI, then rejoin so you still get your salary + UBI? Provided that only unemployed people get it, I don't see how it is the same situation as someone who just works. 2. If someone gets employed a few weeks before UBI, aren't they at a worse position than someone who gets employed immediately after UBI is introduced to public?
If you say no to either, please let me know why. Otherwise it's just talk without arguments.
On February 03 2017 07:04 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Shield, the idea of universal basic income is that people will get paid the universal basic income no matter if they are being paid in a job or not. Even bardtown understands this. So your example simply makes no sense. It's also fairly obvious that you either haven't read or have misunderstood the link; the trial in Finland is just that; a trial. The idea is to trial it first, then see if it works and enable everybody, whether they were originally unemployed or not, to recieve universal basic income. It's kinda in the name. Not sure why we are talking about this in a UK politics thread though.
Sure, I'm arguing about the trial in Finland only. Obviously
x = y x + 580 = y + 580
x and y are balanced either way.
It is a trial. They want to test out what effect the UBI has on a few selected unemployed has. You know, test group and stuff... So you now want to suggest that for some reason all the Finns should have quit their job right before the selection of those bunch of trialists, hope to get selected as trialists, and then reenter their day the ob after??? This would have surely worked. And the trial is not about social fairness compared to nonparticipants. It is simply to test the effect on those receiving it.
@bardtown Dont take me wrong, but i am pretty sure UK is doom to fail after brexit. Also - again please dont take me wrong, not being personal, just my personal experience - your argument is this of low education low wage worker who gets mad because people (EU imigrants) are proving that it is possible to survive for national minimum wage, when you have neither education or skills, required to get actual salary. So in summary a low skilled worker reading Murdoch press or watching Sky (Murdoch) for news - mentioning Murdoch because this is the guy who said he hates EU because when he goes to Downing street they do what he says, when he goes to Brussels they pay no heed. As for the Empire i do find it amusing when i hear we were "Empire" - no you werent, your great grand grand parents were, you are the ones who wasted it away, imagine what would you say if Greece suddenly said - give us what we want because we were "Empire". As for brexit negotiations - as of now it seems like everyone will benefit from "skip the middleman" step, sadly UK being middeman - as of now you only demand without offering anything, what is abvious as you have pretty much nothing to offer- UK exports services only - even production is dependant on imports - once this stop or get to expensive, production will cease. Any sort of trade deal you will get will be from beggar position - you will take what we will give you, or you will get nothing. As for Trump trade talks, thats the businessman, and the guy who said that if deal is no good for America then there will be 30 days to break the deal, or make it more beneficial for America - in layman terms you will get promised everything, but once you are beyond of point of no return, you will get new deal, which will have nothing to do with earlier promises (ask native americans). Additionaly if you take notice you will see that Mrs May is much more focused on consolidating her power than anything else and that doesnt bode well for UK. On the upside though you have now pole position to become first Khalifat of Europe (sadly my money were on Germans)
Well it seems like you've been back through some of my posts so if I didn't convince you the first time around I'm sure I won't now, either.
Brits don't seem to agree with you though. 3% of Leave voters have changed their minds (and 4% don't know) compared to 14% of Remain voters who have changed their minds (and 9% that don't know).
On February 05 2017 03:52 LegalLord wrote: I like how "voted leave" is a higher percentage than UKIP for supporting the decision.
Oh well, I guess the "voted Leave but wanted to stay in the single market" crowd was just a Remainist fantasy.
Yeah, curious. Could be that some UKIP voters really are just disenfranchised Labour voters and don't care about the EU. I hope Michael Moore (and his giggling audience) sees this poll, though.
On February 05 2017 03:39 bardtown wrote: Well it seems like you've been back through some of my posts so if I didn't convince you the first time around I'm sure I won't now, either.
Brits don't seem to agree with you though. 3% of Leave voters have changed their minds (and 4% don't know) compared to 14% of Remain voters who have changed their minds (and 9% that don't know).
You are going to need a source before you can claim anything. There isn't even a question for the graph. That graph isn't even anti aliased.
What were you expecting from a bardtown link? Something objective? lol. My personal favourite was the poll of NI from the 1970s to prove a point in present time. I don't think that this one takes the crown compared to that previous champion but it does prove to be just as unsubstantial and useless. Best case scenario, it comes from panelbase. Which is worth nothing. Worst case it was taken from a an elderly retreat-village somewhere in the midlands.
On February 05 2017 03:39 bardtown wrote: Well it seems like you've been back through some of my posts so if I didn't convince you the first time around I'm sure I won't now, either.
Brits don't seem to agree with you though. 3% of Leave voters have changed their minds (and 4% don't know) compared to 14% of Remain voters who have changed their minds (and 9% that don't know).
Unsourced, so we don't know how the question was asked, but if this was "given the results of the referendum, was the decision right?" and only 14% of the remain voters said that it was the right decision, you have a pretty big problem... especially if even 3% of the leave voters are saying that it was the wrong decision.
But hey, you didn't give us the question, or any other information about the poll, so the question might as well have been "Did you bring an umbrella today, and if so, was that the right decision?"
It's more likely that the question was something like, "what do you think of the government's decision on X?", in which case the answer would make perfect sense, but unfortunately this isn't the first time bardtown has decided to pull some random poll out to claim something else. Personally I am amazed that anybody can beleive that 77% of remain voters would think they made the wrong decision in their vote.
On February 05 2017 03:39 bardtown wrote: Well it seems like you've been back through some of my posts so if I didn't convince you the first time around I'm sure I won't now, either.
Brits don't seem to agree with you though. 3% of Leave voters have changed their minds (and 4% don't know) compared to 14% of Remain voters who have changed their minds (and 9% that don't know).
Unsourced, so we don't know how the question was asked, but if this was "given the results of the referendum, was the decision right?" and only 14% of the remain voters said that it was the right decision, you have a pretty big problem... especially if even 3% of the leave voters are saying that it was the wrong decision.
What...? This is a significant improvement on the actual result in June. Unsurprising, though, given that these people were told we would be in recession now and not the fastest growing G7 economy.
On February 06 2017 20:47 MyTHicaL wrote: What were you expecting from a bardtown link? Something objective? lol. My personal favourite was the poll of NI from the 1970s to prove a point in present time. I don't think that this one takes the crown compared to that previous champion but it does prove to be just as unsubstantial and useless. Best case scenario, it comes from panelbase. Which is worth nothing. Worst case it was taken from a an elderly retreat-village somewhere in the midlands.
My outdated poll is infinitely more indicative than your hideously biased and unfounded opinions on things you know absolutely nothing about. Your rants about Scotland are ridiculous enough but when you talk about Northern Ireland I cringe for you.
On February 05 2017 03:39 bardtown wrote: Well it seems like you've been back through some of my posts so if I didn't convince you the first time around I'm sure I won't now, either.
Brits don't seem to agree with you though. 3% of Leave voters have changed their minds (and 4% don't know) compared to 14% of Remain voters who have changed their minds (and 9% that don't know).
Unsourced, so we don't know how the question was asked, but if this was "given the results of the referendum, was the decision right?" and only 14% of the remain voters said that it was the right decision, you have a pretty big problem... especially if even 3% of the leave voters are saying that it was the wrong decision.
What...? This is a significant improvement on the actual result in June. Unsurprising, though, given that these people were told we would be in recession now and not the fastest growing G7 economy.
On February 06 2017 20:47 MyTHicaL wrote: What were you expecting from a bardtown link? Something objective? lol. My personal favourite was the poll of NI from the 1970s to prove a point in present time. I don't think that this one takes the crown compared to that previous champion but it does prove to be just as unsubstantial and useless. Best case scenario, it comes from panelbase. Which is worth nothing. Worst case it was taken from a an elderly retreat-village somewhere in the midlands.
My outdated poll is infinitely more indicative than your hideously biased and unfounded opinions on things you know absolutely nothing about. Your rants about Scotland are ridiculous enough but when you talk about Northern Ireland I cringe for you.
There may be a context issue here, but "UK" is rather ambiguous. If you asked me that question, I would not be sure whether you are asking me:
"Did the government make the right choice by choosing to follow through on leaving the EU?" or "Were the referendum results the correct choice for the country?"
The latter one seems better phrased if you ask something along the line of "if the referendum were held again today, would you vote the same way?"
So the question, particularly in its former interpretation, which to me seems the more correct interpretation of such a question, seems to conflate two matters: (1) how you feel about Brexit and (2) how you feel about referenda.
Your conclusion, which only takes (1) into account seems shortsighted, but in general, the polling question just seems bad.
But maybe from the context it is entirely clear to the British public what is meant by the question? I don't know.
I think you're trying exceptionally hard to avoid the blatant meaning of the question. I can't imagine anybody interpreting that as asking whether parliament made the right decision - especially considering that parliament had not made any decision when the question was asked, and A50 has yet to be triggered. It is very clearly a question about whether the voting public made the right decision.
"Do you think the United Kingdom made the right decision or wrong decision in deciding to leave the European Union?"
Really poor phrasing. Hard to take the poll seriously, no matter how many impressive looking all those logos look. Seriously amateurish. You'll think even a sociology student can phrase a question better.
In any case, typical bardtown case of random poll, to not answer a specific question, but rather to assert his own position. Anyhow the poll sampled 2000 people between 8th and 12th of January, before Theresa May outlined her disastrous,hard leave the EU plan.
Btw bardtown, this isn't the first time, so in the future you must, without people having to cajole you into doing so:
1) Provide a link without us pointing out you provided none. 2) Provide a graph that is actually in the link or otherwise easily accesable. I still have no idea where you got the ugly un-anti-aliased table from, which is nowhere on the link which I can find. 3) Provide the question asked.
These are really basic, and you have time and time again withheld from providing these, simply on the basis that the polls you provide are questionable. There are polls out there that can back up your position, but for whatever reason, you always try to provide the most questionable ones along with complete lack of rigour.
Relax. I know you don't like the result so you feel like going after me personally, but just relax. I forgot a link once. Go back through the thread and find one person citing more sources than me. Pro tip: you can't. And you know why you can't, don't you? Because I'm the only person arguing the side of the argument which all the evidence supports. That's why.
On February 07 2017 03:54 bardtown wrote: Relax. I know you don't like the result so you feel like going after me personally, but just relax. I forgot a link once. Go back through the thread and find one person citing more sources than me. Pro tip: you can't. And you know why you can't, don't you? Because I'm the only person arguing the side of the argument which all the evidence supports. That's why.
This is a gem.
In regards to this graph. How does any 2000 person online opinion poll count for anything? How does it supposedly represent every political demographic? Nevermind age, gender, geography, industry, etc.
We can all start linking tabloid pro-EU sources, it doesn't make our arguments (or specifically yours) irrefutable. However on a side note, it must be said that both Brexit and the orange moron of the US have just solidified the EU even further. I hope he actually appoints the cretin who compared the EU to the USSR and attempts to do bilateral deals so as to further unite Europe. Even Le Pen has basically half-declared she just wants to redefine France's relationship; knowing that a EU referendum would not work, nor would the same level of bullshit be allowed to let fly as what happened for Brexit or Trump. Bananas, NHS, etc, draining the swamp blah. It's all just part of some crazy satire sketch.
On February 07 2017 03:54 bardtown wrote: Relax. I know you don't like the result so you feel like going after me personally, but just relax. I forgot a link once. Go back through the thread and find one person citing more sources than me. Pro tip: you can't. And you know why you can't, don't you? Because I'm the only person arguing the side of the argument which all the evidence supports. That's why.
My opinions are right and every single poll or index you post is wrong.
You've resorted to fake quoting me now? lol. You can do better.
Just think about it, even if they do find 2000 people of a range of demographics, taking any 10 people and basing a global opinion on their responses is completely inaccurate.. sigh. It could all be pro, all anti, all "i dont give a fuck, i just want the free money from online polls- all 50p of it"
I mean, there's really nothing bad about the poll, and it's very consistent with all the other polls over the past few months that ultimately show that while people vote along the lines they were initially inclined to vote, the idea of Regrexit is just dead in the water.
The vote was cast. It's time to just do it, take the hit of the shock that comes with such a large change, and adapt.
On February 07 2017 04:35 LegalLord wrote: I mean, there's really nothing bad about the poll, and it's very consistent with all the other polls over the past few months that ultimately show that while people vote along the lines they were initially inclined to vote, the idea of Regrexit is just dead in the water.
The vote was cast. It's time to just do it, take the hit of the shock that comes with such a large change, and adapt.
There are a ton of "bad" things about the poll. But I do agree with you, just get on with it. And indyref2 please incoming.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3aGze4XUAAlg_l.jpg:large)
