EPTThe Brits made their choice, now live with it. Hopefully the EU itself crumbles soon enough after this.
UK Politics Mega-thread - Page 274
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
The Brits made their choice, now live with it. Hopefully the EU itself crumbles soon enough after this. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
The EU will not crumble and why would you be hopeful of this? You want Trump, Putin, China, etc. Leading the world for human rights? >_< no offence to them but they barely respect their own people. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
I doubt Scotland is going to have another referendum. The will doesn't seem to be there. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
And the torries are currently doing the dumbest thing possible which is telling them that they cannot have one. Many things can be said about us but stubborn has to be included | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On February 07 2017 03:54 bardtown wrote: It's not just once...Relax. I know you don't like the result so you feel like going after me personally, but just relax. I forgot a link once. Go back through the thread and find one person citing more sources than me. Pro tip: you can't. And you know why you can't, don't you? Because I'm the only person arguing the side of the argument which all the evidence supports. That's why. And what is this side of the argument which all evidence supports? We aren't debating a scientific point of interest. Personally, I don't know why you keep chucking random polls, one of which was from 30 years ago over and over again. We already know the specific results of the referendum. 52% v 48%. Whether Theresa May's plans are good or not are not something which can be polled. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On February 07 2017 04:44 LegalLord wrote: "The Brits" is not a homogenouse hive mind group. Do not misrepresent us.There wouldn't be a referendum 2 if they said remain, so there sure as hell shouldn't be one for them saying leave. The Brits made their choice, now live with it. Hopefully the EU itself crumbles soon enough after this. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4553 Posts
e: hmm, not sure how to embed tweets in here, but it's the latest poll about a Scottish referendum: 49% yes 51% no. Looks like May's Brexit speech shifted the votes a little, I think they'd need something like 60% yes to put it back on the table though. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
On February 08 2017 18:08 Laurens wrote: twitter.com e: hmm, not sure how to embed tweets in here, but it's the latest poll about a Scottish referendum: 49% yes 51% no. Looks like May's Brexit speech shifted the votes a little, I think they'd need something like 60% yes to put it back on the table though. https://stv.tv/news/politics/1380202-indyref2-uk-government-prepares-for-referendum-in-2018/ | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On February 07 2017 04:51 LegalLord wrote: It's a failed project that deserves a quick and merciful death. It's not dead quite yet but I give it a less than even chance of surviving another decade - and we'll be worse off if it does. The trajectory is only downward at this point and it's a pleasant surprise that Brits were smart enough to see it early. I doubt Scotland is going to have another referendum. The will doesn't seem to be there. You are a f*cked up person. How can you hope for EU's best project which unites the continent to fail? It takes years to build something, but only a few days to destroy it. Be constructive. Don't be a douchebag. Wiser people would suggest how EU should change instead of being violent like you. Edit: How is the EU a failed project? The UK was begging at least twice to join what the EU was previously while Charles de Gaulle was in power. How people forget... wow! Let me tell you a bit about predictions. People were predicting BW would be finished. Well, BW is quite okay considering its age. You'll realise later that EU is stable enough to stay for at least a decade. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10842 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On February 09 2017 09:25 Shield wrote: You are a f*cked up person. How can you hope for EU's best project which unites the continent to fail? It takes years to build something, but only a few days to destroy it. Be constructive. Don't be a douchebag. Wiser people would suggest how EU should change instead of being violent like you. Edit: How is the EU a failed project? The UK was begging at least twice to join what the EU was previously while Charles de Gaulle was in power. How people forget... wow! Let me tell you a bit about predictions. People were predicting BW would be finished. Well, BW is quite okay considering its age. You'll realise later that EU is stable enough to stay for at least a decade. Unity for the sake of unity isn't really a worthy goal. It has to be built upon mutual benefit rather than exploitation and soft imperialism, and frankly "mutual benefit" doesn't seem to be the direction the EU is heading. Perhaps it would be better to have it end quickly before the breakup gets worse. Though I can see why one might not think it is on the way out (it certainly doesn't look inevitable quite yet), the fundamental weakness is already apparent: the nation-state is simply a more resilient and stable power structure than these multinational unions. A respect for such a reality simply doesn't seem to be consistent with the entire purpose of the EU, which strains it to the point of breaking. What the European alliance structure used to be or hoped to have been in the past doesn't really mean that it is the same as it is now. If there was a necessity 50-60 years ago, that doesn't mean there is one now. Times change. Some European alliance is hopefully here to stay, but I no longer think that the EU is that alliance. And since you brought up Brood War, let's play out the analogy. If people saw the double threat, the match fixing and IP battle, as an existential crisis that could break the scene, they would have been quite right to do so. The fact that two teams disbanded and more followed was certainly a deadly sign - and there were many more, albeit less dramatic, ones. And while the game itself didn't die - it had its core loyalists who kept it on life support until new life could be breathed into it - the scene is a shell of what it was in the progamer house era. Well, we have two such signs of breakage: Brexit and Trump. Not fatal quite yet, but signs of the existential threat to come. The nail in the coffin, the proverbial closage of MBCGame, could very well come within a few years and seal the fate. First such opportunity is May 2017 (Le Pen). It won't necessarily happen now, but the trajectory continues to suggest that the EU's tendencies toward crisis are becoming increasingly existential. What looked like a "we will get through this" situation has increasingly turned into "we might not survive" crises over the past decade. And a decade on the scale of political alliances is nothing. That's two administrations' worth of time. I could easily see the EU surviving another decade. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4553 Posts
But even if that happens and she succeeds in holding the referendum, I don't see Frexit getting a majority. This time the remainers will also turn up in force, I'm pretty confident remain would win. Wilders and AFD won't be an issue either, and the Italian banks seem to have survived the referendum, crisis averted for now  | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2057 Posts
But that's just an argument to return to the pre-Euro currencies, not to completely abolish the EU. LL, if you mean something besides the Euro, please let me know; that's all I can think of. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
My point, though, was simply that unity isn't always a good thing. Maybe we should argue that the subjects of the British Empire should have never sought independence because unity is important. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14102 Posts
You can't have an economic union without political sovereignty being sacrificed. It was and it took way to long for people to notice that. If you want a prosperous union you need everyone on the same page of it and look at the only prosperous union of interdependent states that there ever has been. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2057 Posts
On February 09 2017 23:24 LegalLord wrote: That's certainly an important part of it, especially of the "soft imperialism" side. There's more to it than that though. Not really too useful to rehash all of the issues with the EU in general, as there are many and people don't generally agree on all of them. But nationalism as a force opposing the Europe project is indeed a reality that strikes from all sides. My point, though, was simply that unity isn't always a good thing. Maybe we should argue that the subjects of the British Empire should have never sought independence because unity is important. Well I can't comment on any issues if you don't want to "rehash" them, but I will respond to the comparison with the British Empire: none of the colonial states had any real representation in Parliament, they were ruled as subjects. By comparison the European Parliament is a democratically-elected institution, so that analogy fails. I agree that "unity for the sake of unity" is not a good argument, but I think for the EU, if you do a pro/cons list, the "pros" far outweigh the "cons" (unless you're Greece). | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18207 Posts
On February 09 2017 23:31 LightSpectra wrote: Well I can't comment on any issues if you don't want to "rehash" them, but I will respond to the comparison with the British Empire: none of the colonial states had any real representation in Parliament, they were ruled as subjects. By comparison the European Parliament is a democratically-elected institution, so that analogy fails. I agree that "unity for the sake of unity" is not a good argument, but I think for the EU, if you do a pro/cons list, the "pros" far outweigh the "cons" (unless you're Greece). I think even for Greece the pros outweigh the cons. Or they would have taken the opportunity they had to leave the union. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On February 09 2017 23:31 LightSpectra wrote: Well I can't comment on any issues if you don't want to "rehash" them, but I will respond to the comparison with the British Empire: none of the colonial states had any real representation in Parliament, they were ruled as subjects. By comparison the European Parliament is a democratically-elected institution, so that analogy fails. I agree that "unity for the sake of unity" is not a good argument, but I think for the EU, if you do a pro/cons list, the "pros" far outweigh the "cons" (unless you're Greece). I'll get back to this later, I'm a bit too busy to give a well-thought-out response at this moment. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
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