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On July 03 2016 16:36 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Yeah thats what it is... rich white kids are upset. The poor white kids who cant afford to live in London just had a world of opportunity opened up to them.
there are more ways to reach some form of equality but to mention a couple, more obvious ones: you nuder the rich or you enrich the poor. now, if you start from the premise that no matter the opportunities you expose the poor folk, in the end they'll still remain poor, the former option becomes more and more appealing.
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On July 03 2016 15:41 xM(Z wrote:
i was pro-Brexit just to see what happens, if an EU exit is actually possible; also, i don't believe one of the greatest colonial powers ever can't make some trade agreements for itself. the fear mongering is ridiculous in here.
No one is doubting Britain's ability to make trade agreements. They are doubting that Britain on its own can get better deals then if it were part of the EU block.
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On July 03 2016 15:41 xM(Z wrote:
i was pro-Brexit just to see what happens, if an EU exit is actually possible; also, i don't believe one of the greatest colonial powers ever can't make some trade agreements for itself. the fear mongering is ridiculous in here.
Well, there are a lot of people who would be affected there, whether it's jobs, education (Erasmus), or the fact that they won't be able to be part of something big and relevant. England is going to survive, sure. They can man up and take the challenge, but you can also man up and attack irrelevant countries, ruining their economies and killing millions and spending billions just bc some extremist group killed thousands of your citizens.
PS: I say irrelevant cuz apparently Saudi Arabia was the terrorist haven but the US did not attack for oil or whatever reason and attacked other middle eastern countries instead
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On July 03 2016 16:57 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 16:36 Rebs wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Yeah thats what it is... rich white kids are upset. The poor white kids who cant afford to live in London just had a world of opportunity opened up to them. there are move ways to reach some form of equality but to mention a couple, more obvious ones: you nuder the rich or you enrich the poor. now, if you start from the premise that no matter the opportunities you expose the poor folk, in the end they'll still remain poor, the former option becomes more and more appealing.
I am with Rebs here.
Do people seriously think that 'reducing immigrants' can enrich the poor? because if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all, the truth is that the anger comes from they think that the foreigners who come here also don't want to work, just like them, and then they proceed to assume that these foreigners take social welfare etc. For the more basic labour works (McDonald's, Tesco, Cafe, take away/restaurant etc), local people hate to work in that kind of work, and that's majority of foreigners you see they work in. I mean, am i pulling all these out of my a** here? Because if most of the foreigners work in the higher skilled jobs here, bigoted people wouldn't have the chance to see them often at all, would they? And we all know foreigners will always be the minority in higher paid jobs/companies, thats why they are called 'foreigners'.
For example, look at the stats from GMC:
http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.asp
This is a good example because GMC wants as many as doctors as possible, so I think it would be fair to assume that they would have the highest possible ratio of foreigners : locals (doctors) compared to any other field. 100k out of 270k are 'foreigners', but it is hard to tell exactly how many foreigners because maybe some of them come here to study and their primary medial qualification could be UK hence calculated into UK group. Anyway, around 40% would be more accurate with the stats, ie locals are still the majority of the doctors. And let me remind you that 100k+ foreign doctors are some tiny population of the whole UK population.
What i mean is that, you wouldn't think that the bigoted people would go 'goddamn i am going to be a doctor because i want to see less foreigner doctors'. The saddest fact of UK/England is that a huge amount of delusional people would prefer to blame/point finger rather than go find a way to work/get paid more or go get better qualification to get a better job. All the privileges and self-entitlements i really wonder where do they come from.
Germany has brought in so many turkish as labour skilled workers (thats like 3/4 generations now? according to the taxi drivers when i visited frankfurt), you dont see germans go blame foreigners rofl.
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On July 03 2016 18:46 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 16:57 xM(Z wrote:On July 03 2016 16:36 Rebs wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Yeah thats what it is... rich white kids are upset. The poor white kids who cant afford to live in London just had a world of opportunity opened up to them. there are move ways to reach some form of equality but to mention a couple, more obvious ones: you nuder the rich or you enrich the poor. now, if you start from the premise that no matter the opportunities you expose the poor folk, in the end they'll still remain poor, the former option becomes more and more appealing. I am with Rebs here. Do people seriously think that 'reducing immigrants' can enrich the poor? because if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all, the truth is that the anger comes from they think that the foreigners who come here also don't want to work, just like them, and then they proceed to assume that these foreigners take social welfare etc. For the more basic labour works (McDonald's, Tesco, Cafe, take away/restaurant etc), local people hate to work in that kind of work, and that's majority of foreigners you see they work in. I mean, am i pulling all these out of my a** here? Because if most of the foreigners work in the higher skilled jobs here, bigoted people wouldn't have the chance to see them often at all, would they? And we all know foreigners will always be the minority in higher paid jobs/companies, thats why they are called 'foreigners'. For example, look at the stats from GMC: http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.aspThis is a good example because GMC wants as many as doctors as possible, so I think it would be fair to assume that they would have the highest possible ratio of foreigners : locals (doctors) compared to any other field. 100k out of 270k are 'foreigners', but it is hard to tell exactly how many foreigners because maybe some of them come here to study and their primary medial qualification could be UK hence calculated into UK group. Anyway, around 40% would be more accurate with the stats, ie locals are still the majority of the doctors. And let me remind you that 100k+ foreign doctors are some tiny population of the whole UK population. What i mean is that, you wouldn't think that the bigoted people would go 'goddamn i am going to be a doctor because i want to see less foreigner doctors'. The saddest fact of UK/England is that a huge amount of delusional people would prefer to blame/point finger rather than go find a way to work/get paid more or go get better qualification to get a better job. All the privileges and self-entitlements i really wonder where do they come from. Germany has brought in so many turkish as labour skilled workers (thats like 3/4 generations now? according to the taxi drivers when i visited frankfurt), you dont see germans go blame foreigners rofl.
Historically, people always blamed the foreigners when thins did not go well. It's a political tool used by politicians to gain some relevence. It's quite sad really
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On July 03 2016 18:46 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 16:57 xM(Z wrote:On July 03 2016 16:36 Rebs wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Yeah thats what it is... rich white kids are upset. The poor white kids who cant afford to live in London just had a world of opportunity opened up to them. there are move ways to reach some form of equality but to mention a couple, more obvious ones: you nuder the rich or you enrich the poor. now, if you start from the premise that no matter the opportunities you expose the poor folk, in the end they'll still remain poor, the former option becomes more and more appealing. I am with Rebs here. Do people seriously think that 'reducing immigrants' can enrich the poor? because if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all, the truth is that the anger comes from they think that the foreigners who come here also don't want to work, just like them, and then they proceed to assume that these foreigners take social welfare etc. For the more basic labour works (McDonald's, Tesco, Cafe, take away/restaurant etc), local people hate to work in that kind of work, and that's majority of foreigners you see they work in. I mean, am i pulling all these out of my a** here? Because if most of the foreigners work in the higher skilled jobs here, bigoted people wouldn't have the chance to see them often at all, would they? And we all know foreigners will always be the minority in higher paid jobs/companies, thats why they are called 'foreigners'. For example, look at the stats from GMC: http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.aspThis is a good example because GMC wants as many as doctors as possible, so I think it would be fair to assume that they would have the highest possible ratio of foreigners : locals (doctors) compared to any other field. 100k out of 270k are 'foreigners', but it is hard to tell exactly how many foreigners because maybe some of them come here to study and their primary medial qualification could be UK hence calculated into UK group. Anyway, around 40% would be more accurate with the stats, ie locals are still the majority of the doctors. And let me remind you that 100k+ foreign doctors are some tiny population of the whole UK population. What i mean is that, you wouldn't think that the bigoted people would go 'goddamn i am going to be a doctor because i want to see less foreigner doctors'. The saddest fact of UK/England is that a huge amount of delusional people would prefer to blame/point finger rather than go find a way to work/get paid more or go get better qualification to get a better job. All the privileges and self-entitlements i really wonder where do they come from. Germany has brought in so many turkish as labour skilled workers (thats like 3/4 generations now? according to the taxi drivers when i visited frankfurt), you dont see germans go blame foreigners rofl.
you have to many arguments there, some at best tangential to your main point so i'll randomly extrapolate ... ideas:
- 'reducing immigrants' makes rich people earn less money(self evident, immigrants work for less so the difference goes to profits)
- 'if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all' = red herring at best, but mostly a fabrication. way to many things to argue here so i won't even ...
- some germans do blame foreigners/immigrants but usually for other things rather than for economic reasons.
- bigots are a small minority of those voting for brexit(imo); or, do you have a statistic which shows the amount of bigoted people living in UK who also voted for brexit?. else, why bother with a minority?. why are they an example of anything?.
you had responsible, educated, young people voting for brexit. why did they?.
- natives, more often than not consider second and third generations of immigrant families as foreigners(and that's a best case scenario 'cause if you're also black, your fucked for eons), your statistics don't.
@swissman777 - historically people always blamed the foreigners because they, their numbers, are perceived as a controllable/fixable(by them) threat.
what a thinker needs to get from a populist vote gone wrong, is that the people demanded a change.
correlating age and stupid with being wrong fixes nothing, addresses nothing because at the end of the day when you get to explain everything to those old and stupid and they get it, they get all of it, a vast majority of them will still be against you just because they're worse off than...
fix that.
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On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are no black people in Poland. UK government has made it harder for Non-EU immigration because of soaring white EU immigration so this argument of yours has no basis in reality.Those campaigning to keep the status quo are the racists here because the current system preferences overwhelmingly white EU citizens over non EU migration. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Italians are coming to the country because their own economies are fucked, with the EU austerity measures partly to blame.Just makes it harder for those kids to get decent jobs, drives down wages all at a time when London house prices rose 5% last year.Well above inflation.Are these kids really so brainwashed they cannot see this?
BBC had some table of how house prices are going to change in and out of EU. While prices in the event of leaving EU were cheaper, they were still increasing every year. They weren't massively cheaper, so I don't think this solves the problem. It just makes it slightly easier to get a house now.
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On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Italians are coming to the country because their own economies are fucked, with the EU austerity measures partly to blame.
I can't comment about Italians but your "hunderds of thousands" of Greeks moving to UK is false. Historically, Greeks have migrated en masse to Australia, Germany and US and most people I know have made the same choice this time around.
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Do we have stats about the abstention for the youth ? My guess is most of the youth that would be favorable to a brexit didn't vote at all.
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On July 03 2016 19:48 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 18:46 BurningSera wrote:On July 03 2016 16:57 xM(Z wrote:On July 03 2016 16:36 Rebs wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Yeah thats what it is... rich white kids are upset. The poor white kids who cant afford to live in London just had a world of opportunity opened up to them. there are move ways to reach some form of equality but to mention a couple, more obvious ones: you nuder the rich or you enrich the poor. now, if you start from the premise that no matter the opportunities you expose the poor folk, in the end they'll still remain poor, the former option becomes more and more appealing. I am with Rebs here. Do people seriously think that 'reducing immigrants' can enrich the poor? because if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all, the truth is that the anger comes from they think that the foreigners who come here also don't want to work, just like them, and then they proceed to assume that these foreigners take social welfare etc. For the more basic labour works (McDonald's, Tesco, Cafe, take away/restaurant etc), local people hate to work in that kind of work, and that's majority of foreigners you see they work in. I mean, am i pulling all these out of my a** here? Because if most of the foreigners work in the higher skilled jobs here, bigoted people wouldn't have the chance to see them often at all, would they? And we all know foreigners will always be the minority in higher paid jobs/companies, thats why they are called 'foreigners'. For example, look at the stats from GMC: http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.aspThis is a good example because GMC wants as many as doctors as possible, so I think it would be fair to assume that they would have the highest possible ratio of foreigners : locals (doctors) compared to any other field. 100k out of 270k are 'foreigners', but it is hard to tell exactly how many foreigners because maybe some of them come here to study and their primary medial qualification could be UK hence calculated into UK group. Anyway, around 40% would be more accurate with the stats, ie locals are still the majority of the doctors. And let me remind you that 100k+ foreign doctors are some tiny population of the whole UK population. What i mean is that, you wouldn't think that the bigoted people would go 'goddamn i am going to be a doctor because i want to see less foreigner doctors'. The saddest fact of UK/England is that a huge amount of delusional people would prefer to blame/point finger rather than go find a way to work/get paid more or go get better qualification to get a better job. All the privileges and self-entitlements i really wonder where do they come from. Germany has brought in so many turkish as labour skilled workers (thats like 3/4 generations now? according to the taxi drivers when i visited frankfurt), you dont see germans go blame foreigners rofl. you have to many arguments there, some at best tangential to your main point so i'll randomly extrapolate ... ideas: 1)- 'reducing immigrants' makes rich people earn less money(self evident, immigrants work for less so the difference goes to profits) 2)- 'if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all' = red herring at best, but mostly a fabrication. way to many things to argue here so i won't even ... 3)- some germans do blame foreigners/immigrants but usually for other things rather than for economic reasons. 4)- bigots are a small minority of those voting for brexit(imo); or, do you have a statistic which shows the amount of bigoted people living in UK who also voted for brexit?. else, why bother with a minority?. why are they an example of anything?. you had responsible, educated, young people voting for brexit. why did they?. 5)- natives, more often than not consider second and third generations of immigrant families as foreigners(and that's a best case scenario 'cause if you're also black, your fucked for eons), your statistics don't. @swissman777 - historically people always blamed the foreigners because they, their numbers, are perceived as a controllable/fixable(by them) threat. what a thinker needs to get from a populist vote gone wrong, is that the people demanded a change. correlating age and stupid with being wrong fixes nothing, addresses nothing because at the end of the day when you get to explain everything to those old and stupid and they get it, they get all of it, a vast majority of them will still be against you just because they're worse off than... fix that.
again (not to sound condescending here, because, truly, nothing that i have experienced and seen here makes me feel good/proud), the random points you took there can be linked back to 'if you live here you would know'.
1) That's probably one of the biggest misunderstanding if you are not living here, and i said 'misunderstanding', meaning you are actually half right there. See, foreigners are willing to get paid less to do the same job =/= they are getting less paid than the locals. There is a minimum wage and thats the 'hardest binding law' in this country, no employer will pay less than minimum wage. The difference between hiring a foreigner and a local is that the foreigners would do their best in the job (because they want to survive and they don't want to get scold by the boss lol) while a local is thinking 'i am getting such a shitty paid why would i put that much effort in it?'. Now imagine the work performance of both employees and how would that affect the business. So ya, having a hardworking polish worker with no attitude is very much preferable to some business owners i bet.
2) When i said 'many people don't want to work', it is anecdotal obviously, but I meant 'work as a labour skilled workers', people absolutely hate to work as a cleaner, take away driver, work in supermarket etc etc. And bear in mind these people i mentioned barely have any education as well, many don't even finish high school and they don't want to get higher education. I mean, i will give you this for no way i can prove that, but come here and see if you will change your mind.
3) Well, the point is, who the fuck blame 'foreigners come here to steal our jobs and our women' like people here do? Jobs like I said are mostly labour skilled jobs and women i won't even want to comment on that.
4) I did not mention anything about bigoted people = people who voted brexit. What i said is more about what is happening in this country even before Brexit. And for brexit, there are many legit reasons to vote for brexit (and fair play to those voters who know what they are doing), immigration issue exists but it won't be involving 'foreigners are stealing our jobs'.
5) There is a racial group category down there if you want to have a look at that.
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On July 03 2016 20:00 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are no black people in Poland. UK government has made it harder for Non-EU immigration because of soaring white EU immigration so this argument of yours has no basis in reality.Those campaigning to keep the status quo are the racists here because the current system preferences overwhelmingly white EU citizens over non EU migration. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Italians are coming to the country because their own economies are fucked, with the EU austerity measures partly to blame.Just makes it harder for those kids to get decent jobs, drives down wages all at a time when London house prices rose 5% last year.Well above inflation.Are these kids really so brainwashed they cannot see this? BBC had some table of how house prices are going to change in and out of EU. While prices in the event of leaving EU were cheaper, they were still increasing every year. They weren't massively cheaper, so I don't think this solves the problem. It just makes it slightly easier to get a house now.
House prices will still increase, the growth in house prices may slow. Because of QE, negative sentiment, and potential loss of reserves, banks may be less willing to lend. I think it will either be harder to buy a house in the UK, or about the same.
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On July 03 2016 20:41 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 20:00 Shield wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are no black people in Poland. UK government has made it harder for Non-EU immigration because of soaring white EU immigration so this argument of yours has no basis in reality.Those campaigning to keep the status quo are the racists here because the current system preferences overwhelmingly white EU citizens over non EU migration. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Italians are coming to the country because their own economies are fucked, with the EU austerity measures partly to blame.Just makes it harder for those kids to get decent jobs, drives down wages all at a time when London house prices rose 5% last year.Well above inflation.Are these kids really so brainwashed they cannot see this? BBC had some table of how house prices are going to change in and out of EU. While prices in the event of leaving EU were cheaper, they were still increasing every year. They weren't massively cheaper, so I don't think this solves the problem. It just makes it slightly easier to get a house now. House prices will still increase, the growth in house prices may slow. Because of QE, negative sentiment, and potential loss of reserves, banks may be less willing to lend. I think it will either be harder to buy a house in the UK, or about the same.
not exactly replying to your post but to the initial posts there.
I never understand how people can relate immigrants to housing issue. Chinese/middle eastern billionaires/americans are the ones who bought a whole block of buildings in London and rebuild them into hotels/bnbs etc, the rich just come here to play the property game and thats including local rich as well ('why would i rent out for £1000 when i can rent out £2000?'). The housing/renting issue is tied to the economical factors rather than immigration. Yes, there are some rare cases of council housing the government gave them to non-british but hell, that must be some really rare cases in london. And just like every city/medium town in the world, housing price is always rising
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but those economic factors will change with brexit, i see no doomsday scenario, but finance will relocate to frankfurt
(i work in a consulting firm for banks and in the meetings with bank directors (smaller german bank, not the big players) in the weeks leading up to the referendum they all said the general attitude in finance is to relocate to frankfurt if the unlikely happens to avoid any uncertainty of market access negotiation, and some already speculated on frankfurt real estate going up)
thousands of high paid professionals leaving london should in an ordinary world have at least some impact on housing prices
but this is not the type of change i think people want.
to me there is a difference in people working and living in the inner city and institutional investment speculating on the value of property with no intention of ever living there
both can be factors in a price increase but one is prone to bubbles and the other is not.
when a bubble occures it means the price and its rate of change is unhinged from the underlying fundamentals, by that definition you can not solve a bubble by adjusting the fundamentals (slightly) as the price is already decoupled from it.
the only point of control remaining is in the financial realm, be it liquidity of the investors, yield of other investments, reference interest rates and so on
maybe it is not the best indicator but as long as german 10yrs are below 0 i see no chance of more realistic and less inflating speculatory investments happenin. therefore real estate will still be the focus and london has enough "emotional appeal" for investment still that it won't go down.
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On July 03 2016 20:40 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 19:48 xM(Z wrote:On July 03 2016 18:46 BurningSera wrote:On July 03 2016 16:57 xM(Z wrote:On July 03 2016 16:36 Rebs wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Yeah thats what it is... rich white kids are upset. The poor white kids who cant afford to live in London just had a world of opportunity opened up to them. there are move ways to reach some form of equality but to mention a couple, more obvious ones: you nuder the rich or you enrich the poor. now, if you start from the premise that no matter the opportunities you expose the poor folk, in the end they'll still remain poor, the former option becomes more and more appealing. I am with Rebs here. Do people seriously think that 'reducing immigrants' can enrich the poor? because if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all, the truth is that the anger comes from they think that the foreigners who come here also don't want to work, just like them, and then they proceed to assume that these foreigners take social welfare etc. For the more basic labour works (McDonald's, Tesco, Cafe, take away/restaurant etc), local people hate to work in that kind of work, and that's majority of foreigners you see they work in. I mean, am i pulling all these out of my a** here? Because if most of the foreigners work in the higher skilled jobs here, bigoted people wouldn't have the chance to see them often at all, would they? And we all know foreigners will always be the minority in higher paid jobs/companies, thats why they are called 'foreigners'. For example, look at the stats from GMC: http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.aspThis is a good example because GMC wants as many as doctors as possible, so I think it would be fair to assume that they would have the highest possible ratio of foreigners : locals (doctors) compared to any other field. 100k out of 270k are 'foreigners', but it is hard to tell exactly how many foreigners because maybe some of them come here to study and their primary medial qualification could be UK hence calculated into UK group. Anyway, around 40% would be more accurate with the stats, ie locals are still the majority of the doctors. And let me remind you that 100k+ foreign doctors are some tiny population of the whole UK population. What i mean is that, you wouldn't think that the bigoted people would go 'goddamn i am going to be a doctor because i want to see less foreigner doctors'. The saddest fact of UK/England is that a huge amount of delusional people would prefer to blame/point finger rather than go find a way to work/get paid more or go get better qualification to get a better job. All the privileges and self-entitlements i really wonder where do they come from. Germany has brought in so many turkish as labour skilled workers (thats like 3/4 generations now? according to the taxi drivers when i visited frankfurt), you dont see germans go blame foreigners rofl. you have to many arguments there, some at best tangential to your main point so i'll randomly extrapolate ... ideas: 1)- 'reducing immigrants' makes rich people earn less money(self evident, immigrants work for less so the difference goes to profits) 2)- 'if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all' = red herring at best, but mostly a fabrication. way to many things to argue here so i won't even ... 3)- some germans do blame foreigners/immigrants but usually for other things rather than for economic reasons. 4)- bigots are a small minority of those voting for brexit(imo); or, do you have a statistic which shows the amount of bigoted people living in UK who also voted for brexit?. else, why bother with a minority?. why are they an example of anything?. you had responsible, educated, young people voting for brexit. why did they?. 5)- natives, more often than not consider second and third generations of immigrant families as foreigners(and that's a best case scenario 'cause if you're also black, your fucked for eons), your statistics don't. @swissman777 - historically people always blamed the foreigners because they, their numbers, are perceived as a controllable/fixable(by them) threat. what a thinker needs to get from a populist vote gone wrong, is that the people demanded a change. correlating age and stupid with being wrong fixes nothing, addresses nothing because at the end of the day when you get to explain everything to those old and stupid and they get it, they get all of it, a vast majority of them will still be against you just because they're worse off than... fix that. again (not to sound condescending here, because, truly, nothing that i have experienced and seen here makes me feel good/proud), the random points you took there can be linked back to 'if you live here you would know'. 1) That's probably one of the biggest misunderstanding if you are not living here, and i said 'misunderstanding', meaning you are actually half right there. See, foreigners are willing to get paid less to do the same job =/= they are getting less paid than the locals. There is a minimum wage and thats the 'hardest binding law' in this country, no employer will pay less than minimum wage. The difference between hiring a foreigner and a local is that the foreigners would do their best in the job (because they want to survive and they don't want to get scold by the boss lol) while a local is thinking 'i am getting such a shitty paid why would i put that much effort in it?'. Now imagine the work performance of both employees and how would that affect the business. So ya, having a hardworking polish worker with no attitude is very much preferable to some business owners i bet. 2) When i said 'many people don't want to work', it is anecdotal obviously, but I meant 'work as a labour skilled workers', people absolutely hate to work as a cleaner, take away driver, work in supermarket etc etc. And bear in mind these people i mentioned barely have any education as well, many don't even finish high school and they don't want to get higher education. I mean, i will give you this for no way i can prove that, but come here and see if you will change your mind. 3) Well, the point is, who the fuck blame 'foreigners come here to steal our jobs and our women' like people here do? Jobs like I said are mostly labour skilled jobs and women i won't even want to comment on that. 4) I did not mention anything about bigoted people = people who voted brexit. What i said is more about what is happening in this country even before Brexit. And for brexit, there are many legit reasons to vote for brexit (and fair play to those voters who know what they are doing), immigration issue exists but it won't be involving 'foreigners are stealing our jobs'. 5) There is a racial group category down there if you want to have a look at that.
I'm a software engineer and yesterday I had dinner with a college friend that is currently living and working in London. She was pretty clear about #2, and her opinion was almost identical word by word with yours. And I see the same thing happening in Portugal too. Some people that haven't even finished highschool think cleaning houses and serving happy meals is beneath them, so they don't do it. And we have to get immigrants to do it for us. And then they complain that they can't get a job.
And then there's the problem that apparently British only like studying finance and economy, and there's huge needs for immigrants in other areas because the UK doesn't have enough of them (including software engineers, I get tons of offers in email every month)
And I know London house prices are really high but all my friends that finished college moved to london a couple months later, they all live in the center and actually make enough to be able to support their parents. Not the other way around.
I doubt I'd be getting emails about jobs at 40k£/yr if a British guy was available to do it
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Do most immigrants from outside EU do jobs which don't require higher education? I heard an opinion yesterday that people want to leave EU because Europeans are well educated, are willing to work for less and, therefore, "steal" their jobs. On the other hand, they're (people who want to Leave) not afraid of immigration outside EU because they work what the British people don't want to do. True/false? I don't know the whole picture to have an idea, but I see quite a lot of Middle Eastern people who have halal/kebab shops, bus drivers, etc.
Edit: I just remembered that the media often mentions Polish plumbers so that's a counter-argument.
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On July 03 2016 20:40 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 19:48 xM(Z wrote:On July 03 2016 18:46 BurningSera wrote:On July 03 2016 16:57 xM(Z wrote:On July 03 2016 16:36 Rebs wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Yeah thats what it is... rich white kids are upset. The poor white kids who cant afford to live in London just had a world of opportunity opened up to them. there are move ways to reach some form of equality but to mention a couple, more obvious ones: you nuder the rich or you enrich the poor. now, if you start from the premise that no matter the opportunities you expose the poor folk, in the end they'll still remain poor, the former option becomes more and more appealing. I am with Rebs here. Do people seriously think that 'reducing immigrants' can enrich the poor? because if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all, the truth is that the anger comes from they think that the foreigners who come here also don't want to work, just like them, and then they proceed to assume that these foreigners take social welfare etc. For the more basic labour works (McDonald's, Tesco, Cafe, take away/restaurant etc), local people hate to work in that kind of work, and that's majority of foreigners you see they work in. I mean, am i pulling all these out of my a** here? Because if most of the foreigners work in the higher skilled jobs here, bigoted people wouldn't have the chance to see them often at all, would they? And we all know foreigners will always be the minority in higher paid jobs/companies, thats why they are called 'foreigners'. For example, look at the stats from GMC: http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/search_stats.aspThis is a good example because GMC wants as many as doctors as possible, so I think it would be fair to assume that they would have the highest possible ratio of foreigners : locals (doctors) compared to any other field. 100k out of 270k are 'foreigners', but it is hard to tell exactly how many foreigners because maybe some of them come here to study and their primary medial qualification could be UK hence calculated into UK group. Anyway, around 40% would be more accurate with the stats, ie locals are still the majority of the doctors. And let me remind you that 100k+ foreign doctors are some tiny population of the whole UK population. What i mean is that, you wouldn't think that the bigoted people would go 'goddamn i am going to be a doctor because i want to see less foreigner doctors'. The saddest fact of UK/England is that a huge amount of delusional people would prefer to blame/point finger rather than go find a way to work/get paid more or go get better qualification to get a better job. All the privileges and self-entitlements i really wonder where do they come from. Germany has brought in so many turkish as labour skilled workers (thats like 3/4 generations now? according to the taxi drivers when i visited frankfurt), you dont see germans go blame foreigners rofl. you have to many arguments there, some at best tangential to your main point so i'll randomly extrapolate ... ideas: 1)- 'reducing immigrants' makes rich people earn less money(self evident, immigrants work for less so the difference goes to profits) 2)- 'if you actually live in UK, you will know one thing for sure, many people don't want to work at all' = red herring at best, but mostly a fabrication. way to many things to argue here so i won't even ... 3)- some germans do blame foreigners/immigrants but usually for other things rather than for economic reasons. 4)- bigots are a small minority of those voting for brexit(imo); or, do you have a statistic which shows the amount of bigoted people living in UK who also voted for brexit?. else, why bother with a minority?. why are they an example of anything?. you had responsible, educated, young people voting for brexit. why did they?. 5)- natives, more often than not consider second and third generations of immigrant families as foreigners(and that's a best case scenario 'cause if you're also black, your fucked for eons), your statistics don't. @swissman777 - historically people always blamed the foreigners because they, their numbers, are perceived as a controllable/fixable(by them) threat. what a thinker needs to get from a populist vote gone wrong, is that the people demanded a change. correlating age and stupid with being wrong fixes nothing, addresses nothing because at the end of the day when you get to explain everything to those old and stupid and they get it, they get all of it, a vast majority of them will still be against you just because they're worse off than... fix that. again (not to sound condescending here, because, truly, nothing that i have experienced and seen here makes me feel good/proud), the random points you took there can be linked back to 'if you live here you would know'. 1) That's probably one of the biggest misunderstanding if you are not living here, and i said 'misunderstanding', meaning you are actually half right there. See, foreigners are willing to get paid less to do the same job =/= they are getting less paid than the locals. There is a minimum wage and thats the 'hardest binding law' in this country, no employer will pay less than minimum wage. The difference between hiring a foreigner and a local is that the foreigners would do their best in the job (because they want to survive and they don't want to get scold by the boss lol) while a local is thinking 'i am getting such a shitty paid why would i put that much effort in it?'. Now imagine the work performance of both employees and how would that affect the business. So ya, having a hardworking polish worker with no attitude is very much preferable to some business owners i bet. + Show Spoiler +2) When i said 'many people don't want to work', it is anecdotal obviously, but I meant 'work as a labour skilled workers', people absolutely hate to work as a cleaner, take away driver, work in supermarket etc etc. And bear in mind these people i mentioned barely have any education as well, many don't even finish high school and they don't want to get higher education. I mean, i will give you this for no way i can prove that, but come here and see if you will change your mind.
3) Well, the point is, who the fuck blame 'foreigners come here to steal our jobs and our women' like people here do? Jobs like I said are mostly labour skilled jobs and women i won't even want to comment on that.
4) I did not mention anything about bigoted people = people who voted brexit. What i said is more about what is happening in this country even before Brexit. And for brexit, there are many legit reasons to vote for brexit (and fair play to those voters who know what they are doing), immigration issue exists but it won't be involving 'foreigners are stealing our jobs'.
5) There is a racial group category down there if you want to have a look at that . you're not seeing the context there.
yes there are some jobs seen as demeaning by pretty much everyone but i would argue that the wast amount of the currently undesirable jobs are just low paying jobs, by UK standards. how many brits, born and bred there, would work at McDonald for 40$k a year?; i'd say a whole lot of them.
your minimum/living wage rules can be abused by ways of apprenticeships and lying about ones age. apprentices in UK get £3.30/h in their first year but can be recycled between firms/companies so that they'll always be in an apprenticeship state. employers can also keep someone at an apprentice level 1 denying him an intermediate apprenticeship (level 2) access claiming they don't have some random(?) qualification.
you pay people under 18's with £3.87 an hour; import more kids from Syria to forever pay your employees less than £7.20(which is minimum living wage for age 25+).
now, i'm not saying that those are very common occurrences, but things are way grayer than you make them out to be.
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On July 03 2016 20:53 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 20:41 Deleuze wrote:On July 03 2016 20:00 Shield wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are no black people in Poland. UK government has made it harder for Non-EU immigration because of soaring white EU immigration so this argument of yours has no basis in reality.Those campaigning to keep the status quo are the racists here because the current system preferences overwhelmingly white EU citizens over non EU migration. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Italians are coming to the country because their own economies are fucked, with the EU austerity measures partly to blame.Just makes it harder for those kids to get decent jobs, drives down wages all at a time when London house prices rose 5% last year.Well above inflation.Are these kids really so brainwashed they cannot see this? BBC had some table of how house prices are going to change in and out of EU. While prices in the event of leaving EU were cheaper, they were still increasing every year. They weren't massively cheaper, so I don't think this solves the problem. It just makes it slightly easier to get a house now. House prices will still increase, the growth in house prices may slow. Because of QE, negative sentiment, and potential loss of reserves, banks may be less willing to lend. I think it will either be harder to buy a house in the UK, or about the same. not exactly replying to your post but to the initial posts there. I never understand how people can relate immigrants to housing issue. Chinese/middle eastern billionaires/americans are the ones who bought a whole block of buildings in London and rebuild them into hotels/bnbs etc, the rich just come here to play the property game and thats including local rich as well ('why would i rent out for £1000 when i can rent out £2000?'). The housing/renting issue is tied to the economical factors rather than immigration. Yes, there are some rare cases of council housing the government gave them to non-british but hell, that must be some really rare cases in london. And just like every city/medium town in the world, housing price is always rising
Migrants all aggregate in specific neighborhood in areas near the center of the city. Since the center is too expensive, and since non migrants don't want to live in the same neighborhood as migrants, they go further away in the suburb. That's what is happening where I live : I live the "banlieue" near paris, in the department with the most migrants. Middle class flee where I live for specific neighborhoods (where the housing prices are really high) and, if they don't have enough money (which is the case for most of the white worker class) they go farther away from the center of the city (Paris "intra muros") to live in the suburb.
Seriously, people who don't understand the effect of migrants on housing prices don't think enough. They don't increase the prices everything equal, they create fluctuation in the cost per m² from one neighborhood to another (because they aggregate and people flee them). Near where I live, there is a city where you can buy a big ass house for 60 000 to 80 000 € (which is nothing for paris, my appartment cost 150 000 m² and it's a 52 m², and I'm not in the richest part of the area at all). But nobody wants to buy those houses because the neighborhood has a REALLY bad reputation.
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On July 03 2016 22:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 20:53 BurningSera wrote:On July 03 2016 20:41 Deleuze wrote:On July 03 2016 20:00 Shield wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are no black people in Poland. UK government has made it harder for Non-EU immigration because of soaring white EU immigration so this argument of yours has no basis in reality.Those campaigning to keep the status quo are the racists here because the current system preferences overwhelmingly white EU citizens over non EU migration. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Italians are coming to the country because their own economies are fucked, with the EU austerity measures partly to blame.Just makes it harder for those kids to get decent jobs, drives down wages all at a time when London house prices rose 5% last year.Well above inflation.Are these kids really so brainwashed they cannot see this? BBC had some table of how house prices are going to change in and out of EU. While prices in the event of leaving EU were cheaper, they were still increasing every year. They weren't massively cheaper, so I don't think this solves the problem. It just makes it slightly easier to get a house now. House prices will still increase, the growth in house prices may slow. Because of QE, negative sentiment, and potential loss of reserves, banks may be less willing to lend. I think it will either be harder to buy a house in the UK, or about the same. not exactly replying to your post but to the initial posts there. I never understand how people can relate immigrants to housing issue. Chinese/middle eastern billionaires/americans are the ones who bought a whole block of buildings in London and rebuild them into hotels/bnbs etc, the rich just come here to play the property game and thats including local rich as well ('why would i rent out for £1000 when i can rent out £2000?'). The housing/renting issue is tied to the economical factors rather than immigration. Yes, there are some rare cases of council housing the government gave them to non-british but hell, that must be some really rare cases in london. And just like every city/medium town in the world, housing price is always rising Migrants all aggregate in specific neighborhood in areas near the center of the city. Since the center is too expensive, and since non migrants don't want to live in the same neighborhood as migrants, they go further away in the suburb. That's what is happening where I live : I live the "banlieue" near paris, in the department with the most migrants. Middle class flee where I live for specific neighborhoods (where the housing prices are really high) and, if they don't have enough money (which is the case for most of the white worker class) they go farther away from the center of the city (Paris "intra muros") to live in the suburb. Seriously, people who don't understand the effect of migrants on housing prices don't think enough. They don't increase the prices everything equal, they create fluctuation in the cost per m² from one neighborhood to another (because they aggregate and people flee them). Near where I live, there is a city where you can buy a big ass house for 60 000 to 80 000 € (which is nothing for paris, my appartment cost 150 000 m² and it's a 52 m², and I'm not in the richest part of the area at all). But nobody wants to buy those houses because the neighborhood as a REALLY bad reputation.
Surely if they go to the same neighbourhood, then prices there should increase, right? So, there's only that many immigrants/French people could afford to go there. It should eventually stop the trend because it's too expensive?
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On July 03 2016 23:35 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2016 22:49 WhiteDog wrote:On July 03 2016 20:53 BurningSera wrote:On July 03 2016 20:41 Deleuze wrote:On July 03 2016 20:00 Shield wrote:On July 03 2016 15:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 03 2016 07:26 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Well, if you truly want to know the motivation of a certain Australian poster, from our interactions, he supports brexit because he visited London last year and was upset that there wasn't as many white British faces as he would had preferred to see. There are no black people in Poland. UK government has made it harder for Non-EU immigration because of soaring white EU immigration so this argument of yours has no basis in reality.Those campaigning to keep the status quo are the racists here because the current system preferences overwhelmingly white EU citizens over non EU migration. There are several good arguments to be made but it is strange to me that the youth wants to keep the status quo when London house prices have doubled since 2009.Is it mostly spoiled rich kids that live with their parents protesting in London? Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Italians are coming to the country because their own economies are fucked, with the EU austerity measures partly to blame.Just makes it harder for those kids to get decent jobs, drives down wages all at a time when London house prices rose 5% last year.Well above inflation.Are these kids really so brainwashed they cannot see this? BBC had some table of how house prices are going to change in and out of EU. While prices in the event of leaving EU were cheaper, they were still increasing every year. They weren't massively cheaper, so I don't think this solves the problem. It just makes it slightly easier to get a house now. House prices will still increase, the growth in house prices may slow. Because of QE, negative sentiment, and potential loss of reserves, banks may be less willing to lend. I think it will either be harder to buy a house in the UK, or about the same. not exactly replying to your post but to the initial posts there. I never understand how people can relate immigrants to housing issue. Chinese/middle eastern billionaires/americans are the ones who bought a whole block of buildings in London and rebuild them into hotels/bnbs etc, the rich just come here to play the property game and thats including local rich as well ('why would i rent out for £1000 when i can rent out £2000?'). The housing/renting issue is tied to the economical factors rather than immigration. Yes, there are some rare cases of council housing the government gave them to non-british but hell, that must be some really rare cases in london. And just like every city/medium town in the world, housing price is always rising Migrants all aggregate in specific neighborhood in areas near the center of the city. Since the center is too expensive, and since non migrants don't want to live in the same neighborhood as migrants, they go further away in the suburb. That's what is happening where I live : I live the "banlieue" near paris, in the department with the most migrants. Middle class flee where I live for specific neighborhoods (where the housing prices are really high) and, if they don't have enough money (which is the case for most of the white worker class) they go farther away from the center of the city (Paris "intra muros") to live in the suburb. Seriously, people who don't understand the effect of migrants on housing prices don't think enough. They don't increase the prices everything equal, they create fluctuation in the cost per m² from one neighborhood to another (because they aggregate and people flee them). Near where I live, there is a city where you can buy a big ass house for 60 000 to 80 000 € (which is nothing for paris, my appartment cost 150 000 m² and it's a 52 m², and I'm not in the richest part of the area at all). But nobody wants to buy those houses because the neighborhood as a REALLY bad reputation. Surely if they go to the same neighbourhood, then prices there should increase, right? So, there's only that many immigrants/French people could afford to go there. It should eventually stop the trend because it's too expensive?
No migrants go there because it's cheap, and it's cheap because there's migrants (and usually because it's the part of the city with the least infrastructures). To increase prices, you need to invest in infrastructures, or in the quality of housing (isolation and such) to attract people with more income.
It's actually happening in many places, especially after the arrival of public transportation (the metro) - in cities close to paris such as Montreuil, Saint Denis, where the price per m² is increasing steadily, and where the population is quickly changing (from mostly migrants to middle class white people). I've been to London a few years ago, I'm pretty sure it's the same kind of dynamic.
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Its hard to see how the effect of migrants could be anywhere near the level of the effect of successive governments failing to ensure that there is enough new housing.
British governments have been failing at this for decades, this was a predictable housing crisis, not caused by migrants at all.
The most frustrating thing is that our current government seems to have no interest in trying to solve the problem by building new houses.
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EPT
