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On June 25 2016 06:29 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:26 OtherWorld wrote:On June 25 2016 06:09 plasmidghost wrote:
I mean I don't trust the media either, but I am quite worried about Putin. I wonder if the UK would ally with Russia. The media wanted the UK to remain and enough people didn't accept that so perhaps they would think the media is trying to make Putin look like a bad guy (which I think he is) for whatever reason A vast majority of articles concerning Brexit in British newspaper were pro-Brexit, get your facts straight before going on with the whole "corrupted medias" bs Huh, all I saw were sources like the Guardian which were very pro-EU and saying how awful Brexit would be for the world
Just because they cite an alternative view on how this is going to play out doesn’t mean its bias. There is no “objective truth” to this that the press is seeking. They just provide you with a perspective. That is why you should read more than one newspaper/news source.
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On June 25 2016 06:31 JazVM wrote:
The thing I am most curous about is what the pro-Brexit camp thinks about what "Brexit" really means. Complete isolation from the EU? A non-member but a de facto member? A member without the freedom of movement of workers? And if it's something that doensn't include beeing a member of the European Union (and therefore the freedom of movement of workers), how do those people imagine it better from Great Britain? I mean economy wise, not in a sense of accomplishment of a national(ist) idea.
No one knows. There was no proposal. Not even Farage thought it would actually happen.
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On June 25 2016 06:29 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:26 OtherWorld wrote:On June 25 2016 06:09 plasmidghost wrote:
I mean I don't trust the media either, but I am quite worried about Putin. I wonder if the UK would ally with Russia. The media wanted the UK to remain and enough people didn't accept that so perhaps they would think the media is trying to make Putin look like a bad guy (which I think he is) for whatever reason A vast majority of articles concerning Brexit in British newspaper were pro-Brexit, get your facts straight before going on with the whole "corrupted medias" bs Huh, all I saw were sources like the Guardian which were very pro-EU and saying how awful Brexit would be for the world
See http://nyti.ms/28LnN4i ; in short, if you take into account newspapers' influence, 82% of articles about the referendum are pro-Brexit.
But yes, clearly the medias are manipulating us. Just not in the way most people think.
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On June 25 2016 06:19 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:11 Azarkon wrote:On June 25 2016 06:05 plasmidghost wrote:On June 25 2016 06:02 Holy_AT wrote:
The UK? What UK?
it just broke on this very day and it will shatter with Scotland beeing the first to leave.
If that is moderate nationalism, then it seems to be english nationalism not the one of the UK, which ripped appart this very day. I support both, if the majority of England want out of the EU, they should leave. If the majority of Scotland and Northern Ireland want out of the UK and to rejoin the EU, they should also leave. Democracy means that the people do what they think is best for them, even if it doesn't work out. I'm pretty libertarian on this subject matter, let the majority of the people have freedom or whatever they decide, provided it doesn't directly affect others negatively. Then again, what is affected directly by this is a completely different argument that I honestly don't have a part in since I'm not a UK citizen. I support the UK decision on principle So here is how democracy works in the libertarian sense: 1. Vote on an issue, lose. 2. "What the fuck? It's obvious people here don't share our values!" 3. Demand independence for province/county/city/town/village. 4. Repeat until all semblance of government collapses. 5. "Why won't anyone do anything about these bandits?" aka Eastern Europe, but if it's what the people want, then let them. That freedom, I believe, is the most important one. People will vote for independence because of disagreements or whatever, then ally and unite for security or whatever, then repeat the process ad infinitum.
Yes if people want their own country we should let them. I still think Brexit is a big negative for the world though.
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On June 25 2016 06:31 JazVM wrote:
The thing I am most curous about is what the pro-Brexit camp thinks about what "Brexit" really means. Complete isolation from the EU? A non-member but a de facto member? A member without the freedom of movement of workers? And if it's something that doensn't include beeing a member of the European Union (and therefore the freedom of movement of workers), how do those people imagine it better from Great Britain? I mean economy wise, not in a sense of accomplishment of a national(ist) idea.
They mostly seem to assume that England will re-negotiate all the trade deals with minimal loss and halt unwanted immigration.
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On June 25 2016 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:31 JazVM wrote:
The thing I am most curous about is what the pro-Brexit camp thinks about what "Brexit" really means. Complete isolation from the EU? A non-member but a de facto member? A member without the freedom of movement of workers? And if it's something that doensn't include beeing a member of the European Union (and therefore the freedom of movement of workers), how do those people imagine it better from Great Britain? I mean economy wise, not in a sense of accomplishment of a national(ist) idea. They mostly seem to assume that England will re-negotiate all the trade deals with minimal loss and halt unwanted immigration.
How can any educated person not just "lol" to that kinda thinking?
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Everything is fearmongering and speculation though, there's very little in terms of facts that happens when votes like Brexit occurs. It's a shame but humans are naturally fearful creatures
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On June 25 2016 06:31 JazVM wrote:
The thing I am most curous about is what the pro-Brexit camp thinks about what "Brexit" really means. Complete isolation from the EU? A non-member but a de facto member? A member without the freedom of movement of workers? And if it's something that doensn't include beeing a member of the European Union (and therefore the freedom of movement of workers), how do those people imagine it better from Great Britain? I mean economy wise, not in a sense of accomplishment of a national(ist) idea.
It baffles my mind too ...
Do they think that britain will now florish ? ... be better of? Have less unemployment?
That all their problems are gone ?
Leaving the EU is a solution to what?
I always here talk about independence quak, but really what horrible laws did they introduce to get away?
Or will leaving the EU make the refugees go away?
I really don't get it.
Yes times are tougher economically speaking, but leaving wont make them any better, but if their is some guy who tells the people that all their problems will be solved by the simple act of leaving the Union, well then it has to be true. A true messiah has come to deliver us from the clutches of the EU!
Well thats how the populist politians argue because they prey and leech on the feeble and helpless to suck them out even more and then blame the EU even more because they behvae like dicks and then the third European civil war will start !
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 25 2016 06:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:18 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure... Meanwhile he has 90% support in Russia. To be fair he also gets 105% of the vote in provinces hes afraid he was going to lose
He was never in danger of losing any elections throughout his political career in Russia.
And never got 105 either, it was the parlament elections when TV graphics showed 146% combined voting for one of the regions. ~_~
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On June 25 2016 06:37 JazVM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:36 Gorsameth wrote:On June 25 2016 06:31 JazVM wrote:
The thing I am most curous about is what the pro-Brexit camp thinks about what "Brexit" really means. Complete isolation from the EU? A non-member but a de facto member? A member without the freedom of movement of workers? And if it's something that doensn't include beeing a member of the European Union (and therefore the freedom of movement of workers), how do those people imagine it better from Great Britain? I mean economy wise, not in a sense of accomplishment of a national(ist) idea. They mostly seem to assume that England will re-negotiate all the trade deals with minimal loss and halt unwanted immigration. How can any educated person not just "lol" to that kinda thinking?
You will have to ask them.
Even if they somehow manage to get trade deals of equal quality they are still going to be bound by many EU regulations to be allowed to trade with the EU.
Regulations they now no longer have a say in.
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On June 25 2016 06:37 plasmidghost wrote:
Everything is fearmongering and speculation though, there's very little in terms of facts that happens when votes like Brexit occurs. It's a shame but humans are naturally fearful creatures
What if they are really afraid?
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On June 25 2016 06:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:29 plasmidghost wrote:On June 25 2016 06:26 OtherWorld wrote:On June 25 2016 06:09 plasmidghost wrote:
I mean I don't trust the media either, but I am quite worried about Putin. I wonder if the UK would ally with Russia. The media wanted the UK to remain and enough people didn't accept that so perhaps they would think the media is trying to make Putin look like a bad guy (which I think he is) for whatever reason A vast majority of articles concerning Brexit in British newspaper were pro-Brexit, get your facts straight before going on with the whole "corrupted medias" bs Huh, all I saw were sources like the Guardian which were very pro-EU and saying how awful Brexit would be for the world Just because they cite an alternative view on how this is going to play out doesn’t mean its bias. There is no “objective truth” to this that the press is seeking. They just provide you with a perspective. That is why you should read more than one newspaper/news source.
Strangely enough, I usually only read from sources I disagree with
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On June 25 2016 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:37 plasmidghost wrote:
Everything is fearmongering and speculation though, there's very little in terms of facts that happens when votes like Brexit occurs. It's a shame but humans are naturally fearful creatures What if they are really afraid?
I'm afraid and most likely so are nearly half the country. Like a dumbass I'm already weary of spending cash while this suits going on, but I can help it.
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the salt from the remain side is unreal.. older people should have their voting rights removed, working class are xenophobic, links between a lack of university education and voting leave so they're all uneducated plebians. so mad.
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On June 25 2016 06:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:37 plasmidghost wrote:
Everything is fearmongering and speculation though, there's very little in terms of facts that happens when votes like Brexit occurs. It's a shame but humans are naturally fearful creatures What if they are really afraid?
They probably are. Terrorism, the economy potentially crashing at any moment, any number of things really are causing them fear. All I can do is hope that they make sound, logical choices, which they didn't. Even though they didn't, they made the choice they wanted to and now must accept the consequences. Such is how the world works
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On June 25 2016 06:27 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure... Exactly ... Putin is no evil, he is a very smart guy. A KGB agent, liar, mafia "associate" ... But in any case, he is clearly a megalomaniac, because Russia needs for this role some megalomaniac. But no evil. A very smart, rich and corrupt guy. If Trump stops to support the no-army EU with his military and the only country having some reasonable army, UK, leaves, there is a good possibility that Putin comes to (at least a part of) Europe to save the people with his tanks from the western decadence. Very dangerous.
Most people here who talk about Russia with their "clever" one-liner zingers clearly have about as much knowledge about how things actually work in Russia as Yahoo News comment section trolls. I think that the Western propaganda channels have done a good enough job of demonizing him that that starts to seem acceptable. In case there are any people here who actually want some information, here's a tidbit that might be worth something.
Putin definitely looks pretty bizarre by Western standards, in large part because he inherited one of the shittiest economic collapses possible, and has to deal with a rather corrupt system. Obviously he is not without fault, as he was a member of the corrupt elite that inherited the nation's wealth after 1991, but he stopped the economic raids of the 90s and coalesced those who inherited a lot into the new wealthy elite. Probably the best outcome given that those new billionaires were generally those who knew how to run the industry they acquired. And there's been quite a lot of successful anti-corruption measures in Russia over his tenure, especially starting about 5 years ago. Voting is of course problematic but his approval ratings (generally between 60% and 80%, though they've been much lower than that before) and electoral support are genuine.
Most of the dislike for him, however, comes from the fact that Russian leaders, including Putin, have a tendency to be willing to oppose NATO interests, with force if necessary. It's been interesting to see how Western media oscillates between portraying him as a pragmatic leader and the next Hitler, depending on whether or not US and Russian FP interests align. Generally you can expect Russian action in some US sphere of influence to be followed by a propaganda blitz all over the US-allied world.
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Well, the UK will have a few possibilities:
1. The Norway model - complete access to the EU markets, paying about 80% of their today's contribution into the EU budget, they would have to adapt a lot of EU legislation, but would not be able to influence it.
2. The Swiss model - a partial access to the EU markets, paying about 40% of their today's contribution into the EU budget, but the access would not include services (which are the most important export thing for the UK)
3. EFTA treaty - free trade with the EU without the need to contribute to the EU budget. No free movement of people, but very difficult bilateral negotiations.
4. WTO treaty - complete separation, just treaties based on the World Trade Organisation membership.
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On June 25 2016 06:45 Espers wrote:
the salt from the remain side is unreal.. older people should have their voting rights removed, working class are xenophobic, links between a lack of university education and voting leave so they're all uneducated plebians. so mad.
Plus it's so many young people that are complaining, yet they were the group that showed up the least in numbers to vote
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On June 25 2016 06:49 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:45 Espers wrote:
the salt from the remain side is unreal.. older people should have their voting rights removed, working class are xenophobic, links between a lack of university education and voting leave so they're all uneducated plebians. so mad. Plus it's so many young people that are complaining, yet they were the group that showed up the least in numbers to vote
I'm sure some people here would know better than I would: why is the youth population as pro-EU as they are?
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On June 25 2016 06:27 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure... Exactly ... Putin is no evil, he is a very smart guy. A KGB agent, liar, mafia "associate" ... But in any case, he is clearly a megalomaniac, because Russia needs for this role some megalomaniac. But no evil. A very smart, rich and corrupt guy. If Trump stops to support the no-army EU with his military and the only country having some reasonable army, UK, leaves, there is a good possibility that Putin comes to (at least a part of) Europe to save the people with his tanks from the western decadence. Very dangerous.
you did forget that the UK isn't the only military power in the european union, France is also one and the most active (both have the nuclear weapon)
the thing is, none of them would push the button except if the integrity of their own territory are in direct danger since none of them have the manpower to counter balance a ground offensive of Russia
UK leaving won't change much in that regard
take a look at this, a funny explanative video
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