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On June 25 2016 05:57 Diabolique wrote:
The problem is not the UK. The problem is Brussels and its current direction of the EU towards a "superstate" ruled by the superpeople from Brussels, the professional buerocrats and politicians. And either they understand it and change it, in which case it would be the best if the UK came back, or they do not understand it and continue with their agenda, and in this case, there will be other referendums, exits and potentially even some wars.
Yeah, because national governments are not at all dominated by bureaucrats and professional politicians seeking their own power/wealth over the people's interest, right?
Truth is, most issues european countries are facing atm are homegrown and thus have little to do with the EU. But I guess many people buy the national politicians' excuse that "it's the mean EU's fault, I'm not incompetent !"
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On June 25 2016 06:19 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:11 Azarkon wrote:On June 25 2016 06:05 plasmidghost wrote:On June 25 2016 06:02 Holy_AT wrote:
The UK? What UK?
it just broke on this very day and it will shatter with Scotland beeing the first to leave.
If that is moderate nationalism, then it seems to be english nationalism not the one of the UK, which ripped appart this very day. I support both, if the majority of England want out of the EU, they should leave. If the majority of Scotland and Northern Ireland want out of the UK and to rejoin the EU, they should also leave. Democracy means that the people do what they think is best for them, even if it doesn't work out. I'm pretty libertarian on this subject matter, let the majority of the people have freedom or whatever they decide, provided it doesn't directly affect others negatively. Then again, what is affected directly by this is a completely different argument that I honestly don't have a part in since I'm not a UK citizen. I support the UK decision on principle So here is how democracy works in the libertarian sense: 1. Vote on an issue, lose. 2. "What the fuck? It's obvious people here don't share our values!" 3. Demand independence for province/county/city/town/village. 4. Repeat until all semblance of government collapses. 5. "Why won't anyone do anything about these bandits?" aka Eastern Europe, but if it's what the people want, then let them. That freedom, I believe, is the most important one. People will vote for independence because of disagreements or whatever, then ally and unite for security or whatever, then repeat the process ad infinitum.
I really think it defeats the purpose of democracy, you know, if every time an important vote happens, the losers refuse to accept the will of the majority and demand independence.
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On June 25 2016 06:19 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:18 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure... Meanwhile he has 90% support in Russia. and KJU has 100% support in North Korea
Exactly!
Anyway I am so distrustful of the mainstream media and I take everything they say about anything with a big reserve. So in the case of Putin I base all of my symphaties to him on his actions in Syria.
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Zurich15365 Posts
On June 25 2016 06:20 JazVM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:12 LegalLord wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:On June 25 2016 04:33 Diabolique wrote:On June 25 2016 04:25 Hryul wrote:On June 25 2016 03:15 Banaora wrote:
It was the worst decision ever Merkel has taken. There is mass unemployment in southern Europe and instead of incentivising them to come to Germany they take 1-2 Million "refugees" in. A decision that the public in majority does not support.
She should have closed the border immediately and not allow anyone from Hungary or Austria enter Germany. Enforce Dublin rules. The whole story about how Europe would have been destroyed had she acted differently is not true. She wanted these people in Germany for whatever reason. I still don't know why.
About "unaccountable civil servants" - that is completely wrong. They are accountable towards their employer like every civil servant at least in Germany and that is the European Commission for them. I wonder if that is different in Britain. My guess is that it's related to her appearence some weeks before. She was at some public gathering and a girl wanted asylum but got rejected. The girl then started crying and Merkel patted her on the head saying "she did a good job", most likely meaning her performance in presenting her case. Merkel also continued saying that she [M.] doesn't have the power to overturn these kind of decisions and there can't be special cases just b/c someone just met the chancelor. This got the left media in an uproar, describing her as "cold" and "calculating", also not understanding the needs of the little girl. Then some weeks later we got the refugees stranded in cruel land that is hungary and it seems like she saw that as her chance to redeem herself. Furthermore, Peter Altmaier, Kanzleramtschef (= chief of staff of the chancellor/ secretary of state) has some very interesting connections to lobbys like proAsyl, which can be quoted saying It was him, also within his political responsiblity - we don't talk about it much publicly - who opened doors for us Er war es auch, der uns als Staatssekretär – das verkünden wir nicht groß öffentlich – auch Türen geöffnet hat. Very interesting. But it seems a very stupid reason to bring Europe into this kind of catastrophe. The worst thing is that I read recently quite frustrating article that if the political correctness wins in the short term, the harsh actions that will follow in the long term will be similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 , but now it will not be hundreds of dead people, but tens of thousands ... Well the problem is on the one hand that she seems to be very "cold" and calculating which seems to be true for the most part. But she is also insecure and poll-driven. My prime example is the so called "Energiewende" which took place some time before. The backstory is that Germany was about 50%/50% on the nuclear power plants (afaik). Then the Red/Green Government of Schröder (2002) passed a law which would shutdown some NPP and fix the "long term goal" of shutting down all NPP over a long period of time in a law. Then Merkel came and basically reverted that law in giving the existing NPP a longer run time. I don't know why, but I guess there was heavy lobbying involved. Then Fukushima happened and there were elections upcoming in Baden-Württenberg (BaWü). (and some other state, i forgot). The then CDU-minister-president was a firm beliver in nuclear energy. Polls plummeted and the danger of the "loss" of BaWü was eminent. (BaWü for the CDU was something like Texas for the Reps). Now Merkel enters the picture: She doesn't want to be responsible for a heavy loss and she has to do something. So she does the most radical thing possible: She shuts down all NPP for three months (until well after the elections), then gets some "ethic comittee" which says NPP are evil and shuts down 8 NPP for good, and all the others until 2022. The result: CDU lost BaWü, they now have a Green minister-president who just got reelected. Germany got the second highest costs for electricity in Europe. Thanks for that. From an outsider's perspective it always does seem like Merkel oscillates between being generally rational and making mind-numbingly fucking stupid decisions. Seems very similar in style (strongly poll-driven politics without a firm platform) to Hillary Clinton in the US. Really dropped the ball on immigration though. The countries that realized that a solution to this problem doesn't really look pretty managed to minimize the impact on their own economies. On June 25 2016 06:03 Hryul wrote:On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. I don't know how people really think about him in Ger/Aut, but he is portrayed as a powerhungry megalomaniac. They were angry for his support of Assad and then he took the Krim just after "they"* overthrew evil Yanukovich. There are a lot of cold warriors left in Germany who were all too happy to pick up that fork again. * "They" may or may not include CIA agents and/or political foundations from Germany to promote western democracy. Very common tactic of the US/NATO leadership to portray the leaders of any country they don't like as the next Hitler. And Russia is definitely geopolitically significant enough for them to put in that kind of effort. To me it seems more like she is only getting involved when she know's it crucial for her own or her party's success on a national level. Apart from that she doesn't get involved much in federal politics. Let's call it a pragmatic aproach. I don't really mind. She isn't a super-leader but if you look at the alternatives in Germany, she is the best we can have right now.
Yeah everyone prepare their WTF faces for the day Von Der Leyen follows Merkel ...
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On June 25 2016 06:22 plasmidghost wrote:
Anyways, now that the UK isn't locked into agreements with the EU (well, after 2 years or however long it takes for them to leave officially), I hope they trade with Canada and the US. I've always wanted Mars Bars in stores near me
Wait, you don't have Mars Bars in the US? :O
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On June 25 2016 06:18 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure... Meanwhile he has 90% support in Russia.
To be fair he also gets 105% of the vote in provinces hes afraid he was going to lose
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On June 25 2016 06:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:18 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure... Meanwhile he has 90% support in Russia. To be fair he also gets 105% of the vote in provinces hes afraid he was going to lose
Other politicians hate him because of this one simple trick: Election Fraud!
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On June 25 2016 06:23 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:22 plasmidghost wrote:
Anyways, now that the UK isn't locked into agreements with the EU (well, after 2 years or however long it takes for them to leave officially), I hope they trade with Canada and the US. I've always wanted Mars Bars in stores near me Wait, you don't have Mars Bars in the US? :O
They litterally have the same stuff over there but its simply other brands ....
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On June 25 2016 06:18 Holy_AT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:15 Deleuze wrote:On June 25 2016 06:09 Zaros wrote:On June 25 2016 06:06 Deleuze wrote:
I work in higher education in the UK and this is totally fucked. How can we lead the world in the pursuit of knowledge when we've signalled we're closing the doors on our closest global partners. Its about democracy and opening the UK up to the world instead of an insular European union. This populism. The UK has always been open internationally, but it wasn't about the EU it is about total insularity, the chief concern was migration. Migration? Its an effing island there are no 1.000.000 syriens and africas paddeling over the channel, they are the ones who are best of. And first they play effing empire and subjugate and enslave millions and then they want to wahs their hands clean and talk about whooo migration...
Yeah. Exactly. Built on bullshit. Sorry if my tone wasn't clear.
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On June 25 2016 06:09 plasmidghost wrote:
I mean I don't trust the media either, but I am quite worried about Putin. I wonder if the UK would ally with Russia. The media wanted the UK to remain and enough people didn't accept that so perhaps they would think the media is trying to make Putin look like a bad guy (which I think he is) for whatever reason
A vast majority of articles concerning Brexit in British newspaper were pro-Brexit, get your facts straight before going on with the whole "corrupted medias" bs
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On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure...
Exactly ... Putin is no evil, he is a very smart guy. A KGB agent, liar, mafia "associate" ... But in any case, he is clearly a megalomaniac, because Russia needs for this role some megalomaniac. But no evil. A very smart, rich and corrupt guy. If Trump stops to support the no-army EU with his military and the only country having some reasonable army, UK, leaves, there is a good possibility that Putin comes to (at least a part of) Europe to save the people with his tanks from the western decadence. Very dangerous.
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On June 25 2016 06:14 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 05:54 NukeD wrote:On June 25 2016 05:51 Hryul wrote:
Erdogan is portrayed almost as evil as Putin. Putin is evil? I'm quite a fan of the guy myself. So is most of Croatia. I wonder how rest of the European countries resonate on this. Annihilation of free press, murders of journalsits, maybe the richest person in the world, nah he's a great guy, sure...
Don't forget he also stole the Moon and makes it rain when you forget your umbrella.
I think pulling the boogie man card means we are at the frustration faze... its only gets better from here for the remain crowd.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5doWJga.jpg)
edit: Oh fuck, I think TL general forum is actually stuck in that circle in the middle 
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On June 25 2016 06:26 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:09 plasmidghost wrote:
I mean I don't trust the media either, but I am quite worried about Putin. I wonder if the UK would ally with Russia. The media wanted the UK to remain and enough people didn't accept that so perhaps they would think the media is trying to make Putin look like a bad guy (which I think he is) for whatever reason A vast majority of articles concerning Brexit in British newspaper were pro-Brexit, get your facts straight before going on with the whole "corrupted medias" bs
The british media is mayhaps the queen of trash ...
They dont promote news and facts only opinions.
(With some exceptions of high quality perpers and media outlets of course.)
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On June 25 2016 06:28 Holy_AT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:26 OtherWorld wrote:On June 25 2016 06:09 plasmidghost wrote:
I mean I don't trust the media either, but I am quite worried about Putin. I wonder if the UK would ally with Russia. The media wanted the UK to remain and enough people didn't accept that so perhaps they would think the media is trying to make Putin look like a bad guy (which I think he is) for whatever reason A vast majority of articles concerning Brexit in British newspaper were pro-Brexit, get your facts straight before going on with the whole "corrupted medias" bs The british media is mayhaps the queen of trash ... They dont promote news and facts only opinions. (With some exceptions of high quality perpers and media outlets of course.)
Trusting the British press and media?
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The thing I am most curous about is what the pro-Brexit camp thinks about what "Brexit" really means. Complete isolation from the EU? A non-member but a de facto member? A member without the freedom of movement of workers? And if it's something that doensn't include beeing a member of the European Union (and therefore the freedom of movement of workers), how do those people imagine it better from Great Britain? I mean economy wise, not in a sense of accomplishment of a national(ist) idea.
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EPT
