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United States44373 Posts
On June 24 2016 11:37 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:35 KwarK wrote:
Scotland is naturally extremely pro-European and the strong independence movement is too. I can explain why in more depth to any Americans interested but they were always going to vote remain and if they vote remain and the UK does actually attempt to leave (unlikely) the odds are good that Scotland will stay. I'd be interested in this.
The fear of the independent Scotland movement is the degree to which there is dependence on the UK for trade, raw materials and so forth and that rather than being interdependent, as England is by far the larger and more powerful party the dependence only goes one way. In particular with the end of the North Sea oil boom Scotland is dependent upon English markets and English capital for its fiscal survival and has always been a net recipient of central funds, much like some of the southern US states. The fear was always that an independent Scotland wouldn't make it. However since the entry of the UK into the EEC (now the EU) there has been a larger organization that both are members of which guarantees the free flow of goods and capital across the border. The argument has since been made that independence would actually involve any real economic dislocation but rather simply a move of powers from Westminster to Holyrood while everything else continued much as it did before. This argument is, of course, predicated on the continued membership of the UK within the EU. If the UK leaves then Scotland goes back to being England's bitch and even if Scotland stayed and England left (the most likely scenario for other reasons, see part 2) they would again be vulnerable to economic leverage (although they'd be in the same bargaining unit as the rest of the EU so while Scottish interests wouldn't be represented strongly they would be part of the stronger unit).
Scotland has also historically been far to the left of England. They were a Labour stronghold until the independence movement started gathering steam and when the working class movement schismed between the nationalist, protectionist trade union bloc and the internationalist liberal "what really is a country, we're all humans" bloc Scotland was firmly in the second camp. While the Scots see themselves as very definitely not English and not wishing to be ruled from England a significant amount of the same group also see themselves as Europeans and believe in the EU Federalist dream. They wish to be self governing as part of a larger community but don't want that larger body to all be made of arrogant Englishmen who forget they exist. A part of this is also that England has ridden over them democratically for a long time. Hell, the UK is currently ruled by a government which got almost no Scottish votes. They see the EU as a workable alternative to that in which power is so diffused that the local interests of small nations can no longer be overlooked.
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On June 24 2016 11:48 Espers wrote:
Noel Gallagher on Brexit Referendum - "What are you asking the people for? 99 percent of the people are thick as pig shit."
half the people at the polling station i went to didn't even know they wanted
Well heaven forbid people are unsure about a truly monumental decision. Not everyone is a political junkie who knows what they believe down to the merest detail and can make a decision in an instant as to what side they're on because they think about politics all the time. Not everyone is young either, young people make decisions quick and stick to them strongly. Older people are more ambivalent.
People like Noel Gallagher shoot their political preferences in the foot when they throw tantrums like that.
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Or in short: they'd simply be better off.
It's btw not just oil that scotland has/had plenty of. The biggest fishgrounds (and something that many brexiteers are citing constantly) are in scotland/shetlands.
I don't think that scotland would be worse off without being governed by westminster. And i don't think they think that either.
edit: ah, and kinda obviously the nuclear submarine harbors, something like that?
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On June 24 2016 11:52 m4ini wrote:
Or in short: they'd simply be better off.
It's btw not just oil that scotland has/had plenty of. The biggest fishgrounds (and something that many brexiteers are citing constantly) are in scotland/shetlands.
I don't think that scotland would be worse off without being governed by westminster. And i don't think they think that either.
Where are you from?
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On June 24 2016 11:45 Plansix wrote:
That would spell disaster for the rest of the UK. I doubt they let that happen. But it'll be fun to see the hypocrites in in full force.
Depression is whats coming, not a recession.US debt has doubled since Obama has been in office for example.The fiat system is over, the global economy will collapse worse than 2008 on this result.It's been building for years, they've been creating money like crazy to paper over the cracks.This (vote) is just the trigger not the cause.
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Thanks for the summary Kwark
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United States44373 Posts
A big part of why the Brexit mentality is so strong is that the political elites have, for 37 years now, viewed this as a question for them and not for the people. And while that is how our political system is structured and while the elected representatives do wield absolute power 37 years is a long time to take the piss for. "Leave" is partly a vote for "you never asked me if I wanted this and you should have". It's not just that people don't like the EU, they don't like the arrogance of politicians either.
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On June 24 2016 11:53 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:52 m4ini wrote:
Or in short: they'd simply be better off.
It's btw not just oil that scotland has/had plenty of. The biggest fishgrounds (and something that many brexiteers are citing constantly) are in scotland/shetlands.
I don't think that scotland would be worse off without being governed by westminster. And i don't think they think that either. Where are you from?
Don't know why that'd make a difference to you. Does my heritage make my statement less or more true?
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On June 24 2016 11:51 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:48 Espers wrote:
Noel Gallagher on Brexit Referendum - "What are you asking the people for? 99 percent of the people are thick as pig shit."
half the people at the polling station i went to didn't even know they wanted Well heaven forbid people are unsure about a truly monumental decision. Not everyone is a political junkie who knows what they believe down to the merest detail and can make a decision in an instant as to what side they're on because they think about politics all the time. People like Noel Gallagher shoot their political preferences in the foot when they throw tantrums like that.
which is why we have an elected government who are there to make educated decisions, as opposed to people from Sunderland who have little to no clue about this issue.
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So is it still too early to call?
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On June 24 2016 11:54 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:53 bardtown wrote:On June 24 2016 11:52 m4ini wrote:
Or in short: they'd simply be better off.
It's btw not just oil that scotland has/had plenty of. The biggest fishgrounds (and something that many brexiteers are citing constantly) are in scotland/shetlands.
I don't think that scotland would be worse off without being governed by westminster. And i don't think they think that either. Where are you from? Don't know why that'd make a difference to you. Does my heritage make my statement less or more true?
I'm curious. Humour me.
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United States44373 Posts
On June 24 2016 11:52 m4ini wrote:
Or in short: they'd simply be better off.
It's btw not just oil that scotland has/had plenty of. The biggest fishgrounds (and something that many brexiteers are citing constantly) are in scotland/shetlands.
I don't think that scotland would be worse off without being governed by westminster. And i don't think they think that either.
edit: ah, and kinda obviously the nuclear submarine harbors, something like that?
The Scots are against Trident but I doubt they'd be against a shared defence policy with England if it came to that. But even if they are we'd just lease the harbours. Things like that are problems that are well within the capacity of civil servants to find a working solution for. Hell, the Royal Navy used the harbours of the Irish for decades after Irish independence and they hated us, they just also recognized that $ is $.
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On June 24 2016 11:44 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:42 Vin{MBL} wrote:On June 24 2016 11:38 Wegandi wrote:On June 24 2016 11:34 m4ini wrote:On June 24 2016 11:31 KwarK wrote:On June 24 2016 11:28 m4ini wrote:
Sidenote, i don't know if anyone noticed, a small but really funny fact, in regards to sovereignty and stuff (you know, the thing the whole fuzz is about).
One entire country in the UK voted with big majority for "stay". Isn't that wonderfully ironic that it actually doesn't matter, because sovereignty gets only called for if it suits people? We are not a federal state, we are a unitary state. Sovereignty only exists in the person of the queen (and Westminster, on her behalf). All other power is devolved from that single source. England does not have any power, nor Scotland, nor Northern Ireland, nor Wales. Only Westminster. The people demanding sovereignty back are not demanding it back for any specific country, they are demanding it be returned to Westminster. So not, it's not ironic, it's simply the way the UK works. We're a constitutional monarchy, not a federation. Yeah. Right. Because as we remember, it CLEARLY wasn't about sovereignty in the last referendum the scots held. Right? Right. Must've dreamed that then. edit: If I'm not mistaken didn't the Scots vote to remain united politically with England? At least England let's their constituencies have such a choice, unlike the in toto US where the threat of death is levied upon folks who want to leave DC politically.
Yes. Ask yourself how that would've turned out if they knew then what'd happen today. I'm sure they can always take another vote on the issue if it suits their fancy. How about you let Texas have a vote on if they can leave DC? Or Alaska, or New Hampshire, etc. Certainly, England on this front is vastly ahead of other similar countries (re: US/Canada/etc.). I wonder if Canada will ever let Quebec have a vote if they want to leave. Quebec did have a vote on independence in 1995. They decided to remain but it was extremely close (0.5%) Good to know, but was it a binding vote (e.g. that the Government of Canada would have abided by its results?)?
Grey area. Apparently it went to the supreme court of Canada, which ruled that leaving would have been illegal.
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On June 24 2016 11:56 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:54 m4ini wrote:On June 24 2016 11:53 bardtown wrote:On June 24 2016 11:52 m4ini wrote:
Or in short: they'd simply be better off.
It's btw not just oil that scotland has/had plenty of. The biggest fishgrounds (and something that many brexiteers are citing constantly) are in scotland/shetlands.
I don't think that scotland would be worse off without being governed by westminster. And i don't think they think that either. Where are you from? Don't know why that'd make a difference to you. Does my heritage make my statement less or more true? I'm curious. Humour me.
I said it earlier. I'm gladly repeating myself though, to "humour you". I live in the Vale of Glamorgan.
The Scots are against Trident but I doubt they'd be against a shared defence policy with England if it came to that. But even if they are we'd just lease the harbours. Things like that are problems that are well within the capacity of civil servants to find a working solution for. Hell, the Royal Navy used the harbours of the Irish for decades after Irish independence and they hated us, they just also recognized that $ is $.
While true, that is money spent that the UK won't have. On top of losing their biggest fishing grounds, because i sincerely doubt that the Scots will just watch the UK overfish their fishing grounds again.
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On June 24 2016 11:55 Espers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:51 DeepElemBlues wrote:On June 24 2016 11:48 Espers wrote:
Noel Gallagher on Brexit Referendum - "What are you asking the people for? 99 percent of the people are thick as pig shit."
half the people at the polling station i went to didn't even know they wanted Well heaven forbid people are unsure about a truly monumental decision. Not everyone is a political junkie who knows what they believe down to the merest detail and can make a decision in an instant as to what side they're on because they think about politics all the time. People like Noel Gallagher shoot their political preferences in the foot when they throw tantrums like that. which is why we have an elected government who are there to make educated decisions, as opposed to people from Sunderland who have little to no clue about this issue.
So let me get this right: The people who are idiots, are supposed to be bright enough to elect the right people who do have the knowledge to make the "right" decisions, but the people aren't smart enough to actually vote on issues as large as political unions? Did you take a moment to spot the dichotomy there? Dumb people are supposed to be smart enough to vote in the right Technocrats. Why not just skip the people voting part altogether, or do you need some pretense of legitimacy so you feign support for democracy?
I might want to add that I'm no fan of democracy, and tend to share the same view that the common person if given all the power will quickly devolve into a nasty state of affairs, but to move from that to well, they should be ruled by wise omnipresent technocrats who know what is best for all veers way off the farm imho.
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On June 24 2016 11:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So is it still too early to call?
It's looking more and more likely Leave will win
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On June 24 2016 12:01 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 11:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
So is it still too early to call? It's looking more and more likely Leave will win
Yeah, it's pretty much over.
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I am ignorant on modern politics in the UK. What will happen if the UK leaves the EU? I would assume serious financial reprecussions? Can anyone enlighten me?
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EPT
