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Please attempt to distinguish between extremists and non extremists to avoid starting the inevitable waste of time that is "can Islam be judged by its believers?" - KwarK |
On May 23 2013 06:02 edlover420 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 05:52 ShadeR wrote:On May 23 2013 05:45 Sverigevader wrote:On May 23 2013 05:40 edlover420 wrote:On May 23 2013 05:24 ImperialFist wrote:
Can Islam be judged by its believers?
Absolutely not, this is utter nonsense.
These killers can easily find verses in the Qoran which would support actions like this. People are not inherently evil but Islam is.
User was temp banned for this post. Actually by the most accepted interpretation of Qur'an it is actually stated that Allah will never forgive you if you kill another man and jihad is interpreted as a battle with yourself and your bad side to become better as a person. Yet some demagogues explain the words in Qur'an differently to naive uneducated people of the 3rd world countries, mainly not because they would believe so but because of their own economical interests and they train young man to become extremists and do crazy shit like this. What happened was indeed extremely shameful and all extremists are a disgrace for our religion. What about Muhammed? He killed a lot of people right? He was a full-time warlord i would assume so. Muslims view that the Muhammad fought only when attacked, or in the context of a wider war of self-defense. They argue that Muhammad was the first among the major military figures of history to lay down rules for humane warfare, and that he was scrupulous in limiting the loss of life as much as possible.
Lets also put things in historical perspective. What we consider warcrimes and genocide was normal warfare back in the day for everyone. History is an aweful place to be in but you just cant rip things out of context. George washington owned slaves but he was very progressive for his day and from most of the history i read a great person.
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On May 23 2013 06:02 edlover420 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 05:52 ShadeR wrote:On May 23 2013 05:45 Sverigevader wrote:On May 23 2013 05:40 edlover420 wrote:On May 23 2013 05:24 ImperialFist wrote:
Can Islam be judged by its believers?
Absolutely not, this is utter nonsense.
These killers can easily find verses in the Qoran which would support actions like this. People are not inherently evil but Islam is.
User was temp banned for this post. Actually by the most accepted interpretation of Qur'an it is actually stated that Allah will never forgive you if you kill another man and jihad is interpreted as a battle with yourself and your bad side to become better as a person. Yet some demagogues explain the words in Qur'an differently to naive uneducated people of the 3rd world countries, mainly not because they would believe so but because of their own economical interests and they train young man to become extremists and do crazy shit like this. What happened was indeed extremely shameful and all extremists are a disgrace for our religion. What about Muhammed? He killed a lot of people right? He was a full-time warlord i would assume so. Muslims view that the Muhammad fought only when attacked, or in the context of a wider war of self-defense. They argue that Muhammad was the first among the major military figures of history to lay down rules for humane warfare, and that he was scrupulous in limiting the loss of life as much as possible.
If only this were remotely true. All that conquest and destruction and raiding was certainly in the context of self-defense, right? Same goes for Attila I guess huh.
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United States44450 Posts
On May 23 2013 06:02 Yuljan wrote:
Horrible to hear, but at least they attacked a soldier instead of a civilian.
If you believe you're at war then there is a huge moral difference between attacking a soldier and a civilian. I'd say "that's why we pay our soldiers and give them the benefits we do, being instruments of government policy makes them a target" but we don't pay them shit.
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On May 23 2013 06:01 Stol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 05:45 Doctorbeat wrote:On May 23 2013 05:40 edlover420 wrote:On May 23 2013 05:24 ImperialFist wrote:
Can Islam be judged by its believers?
Absolutely not, this is utter nonsense.
These killers can easily find verses in the Qoran which would support actions like this. People are not inherently evil but Islam is.
User was temp banned for this post. Actually by the most accepted interpretation of Qur'an it is actually stated that Allah will never forgive you if you kill another man and jihad is interpreted as a battle with yourself and your bad side to become better as a person. Yet some demagogues explain the words in Qur'an differently to naive uneducated people of the 3rd world countries, mainly not because they would believe so but because of their own economical interests and they train young man to become extremists and do crazy shit like this. What happened was indeed extremely shameful and all extremists are a disgrace for our religion. Hadith is a bitch. Though the religion is still partly to blame, when you have claims of it being the literal word of God. And many of the extremists are not 3rd world people but young muslims who grow up in Western nations and radicalize. Religion is never to blame, you are always accountable for your own actions and even in religious texts I have at least personally never heard of someone saying: "Do whatever you want, God doesnt care". If you, as an individual, are to put the blame on God for your actions you would actually have to know that its what God wants. With religion being a matter of belief this is in itself a contradiction. People who assume they know what God wants are to blame. People who use religion as a tool to get others to do their bidding are to blame. People who use religion as an excuse to harm others are to blame. Religion is a belief and even God, should there be one, would hold you responsible for your own actions. You can only try to do what you think is right in the name of God and you alone are to blame for your actions.
That's not true. People make up "what God wants" or they listen to their peers for it. No one actually knows, but that doesn't stop the fact that it's this belief pushing them to take actions. I agree, you are the only one accountable for your actions, but that doesn't mean these people don't believe they really are one with God, and that God isn't telling them to do things. I think you put too much stock in a person who believes their morals are decided by a God who they know through texts, preachers, or their own subconscious. To really understand this phenomenon you have to accept that people will believe in illusions and lies even if you think they're ridiculous.
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On May 23 2013 06:02 edlover420 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 05:52 ShadeR wrote:On May 23 2013 05:45 Sverigevader wrote:On May 23 2013 05:40 edlover420 wrote:On May 23 2013 05:24 ImperialFist wrote:
Can Islam be judged by its believers?
Absolutely not, this is utter nonsense.
These killers can easily find verses in the Qoran which would support actions like this. People are not inherently evil but Islam is.
User was temp banned for this post. Actually by the most accepted interpretation of Qur'an it is actually stated that Allah will never forgive you if you kill another man and jihad is interpreted as a battle with yourself and your bad side to become better as a person. Yet some demagogues explain the words in Qur'an differently to naive uneducated people of the 3rd world countries, mainly not because they would believe so but because of their own economical interests and they train young man to become extremists and do crazy shit like this. What happened was indeed extremely shameful and all extremists are a disgrace for our religion. What about Muhammed? He killed a lot of people right? He was a full-time warlord i would assume so. Muslims view that the Muhammad fought only when attacked, or in the context of a wider war of self-defense. They argue that Muhammad was the first among the major military figures of history to lay down rules for humane warfare, and that he was scrupulous in limiting the loss of life as much as possible.
I don't mean to offend here, but that's the same line of reasoning that many extremists (like the culprit in this op) are likely to use when killing people. He had to kill that soldier to make the world a better place for Muslims just like Muhammad had to liberate so many cities for Muslims, right? I think the major problem here is that theres too many things pulling in too many directions. You can argue that Jihad is an inner struggle or that Allah forbids killing, but you can very easily argue that the opposite is true.
Regardless, hope everything gets sorted out quick and that they can avoid more bloodshed over there.
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Does a random lunatic appealing to God after murdering a stranger really justify an explanation of the crime as motivated by religion? If we always took such religious appeals at face value, Goebbels’ infamous speech about going into battle "as if they were in for a church service“ and the Red Army singing ‘Свяще́нная война́’ (sacred war) would mean that World War II was a religious war... I'm just saying, maybe we need a little more backup than a simple phrase.
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Cowards and fools. Given a chance we all get, to be a great man or woman, they throw it away in mere seconds.
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On May 23 2013 03:23 Ettick wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 03:19 ThomasjServo wrote:
This doesn't seem like something on an exceedingly organized level. I am sure more will come out on the subject, but yelling "Allahu Akbar," on its own, to me doesn't immediately point one way or the other. The means of the attack is more indicative of the nature of the attack to me than anything. They could have just shouted it to make people think it was an attack made by Islamists to confuse people into thinking less of them.
Your right. It probably was a couple of members from the British equivalent of the tea party.
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On May 23 2013 06:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 06:02 Yuljan wrote:
Horrible to hear, but at least they attacked a soldier instead of a civilian. If you believe you're at war then there is a huge moral difference between attacking a soldier and a civilian. I'd say "that's why we pay our soldiers and give them the benefits we do, being instruments of government policy makes them a target" but we don't pay them shit.
That doesn't make his statement false though, just shows that you should pay them more since they're clearly in a more dangerous position than you thought ("you" being the UK gov, and while we're at it, germanies as well).
Horrible? Yes. But better to have a soldier killed than a civilian - at least a soldier is remotely connected to the "war" (if you want to call it that).
edit: that being said, every single death is one too much.
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Random thugs attacking someone while screaming "alahu akhbar": a whole country on alert. Yep, it would seem that the terrorists have won.
I wonder what would happen if a christian extremist did the same screaming "God Wills It!".. That person would probably just be described as a madman.
Muslims killing people: terrorists out to destroy the country. People of other faiths killing people: just nutjobs we forgot to put in an insane asylum. Hypocrisy is the name of the game nowadays!
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but people get murdered every day for the most trivial reasons. I don't see why this particular case would warrant much attention.
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United States44450 Posts
On May 23 2013 06:32 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 06:16 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 06:02 Yuljan wrote:
Horrible to hear, but at least they attacked a soldier instead of a civilian. If you believe you're at war then there is a huge moral difference between attacking a soldier and a civilian. I'd say "that's why we pay our soldiers and give them the benefits we do, being instruments of government policy makes them a target" but we don't pay them shit. That doesn't make his statement false though, just shows that you should pay them more since they're clearly in a more dangerous position than you thought ("you" being the UK gov, and while we're at it, germanies as well). Horrible? Yes. But better to have a soldier killed than a civilian - at least a soldier is remotely connected to the "war" (if you want to call it that). edit: that being said, every single death is one too much.
I was agreeing with him. Sorry if that was unclear.
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He was beheaded? Shit....
Luckily it was only one victim this time, but it's still one too many.
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On May 23 2013 06:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 06:32 m4inbrain wrote:On May 23 2013 06:16 KwarK wrote:On May 23 2013 06:02 Yuljan wrote:
Horrible to hear, but at least they attacked a soldier instead of a civilian. If you believe you're at war then there is a huge moral difference between attacking a soldier and a civilian. I'd say "that's why we pay our soldiers and give them the benefits we do, being instruments of government policy makes them a target" but we don't pay them shit. That doesn't make his statement false though, just shows that you should pay them more since they're clearly in a more dangerous position than you thought ("you" being the UK gov, and while we're at it, germanies as well). Horrible? Yes. But better to have a soldier killed than a civilian - at least a soldier is remotely connected to the "war" (if you want to call it that). edit: that being said, every single death is one too much. I was agreeing with him. Sorry if that was unclear.
Nah, might very well be clear and i just misunderstood it, i'm tired.
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On May 23 2013 06:33 maartendq wrote:
Random thugs attacking someone while screaming "alahu akhbar": a whole country on alert. Yep, it would seem that the terrorists have won.
I wonder what would happen if a christian extremist did the same screaming "God Wills It!".. That person would probably just be described as a madman.
Muslims killing people: terrorists out to destroy the country. People of other faiths killing people: nutjobs.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but people get murdered every day for the most trivial reasons. I don't see why this particular case would warrant much attention.
Because there's a political angle in that. To jihadis politics and religion are very nearly the same thing so that gets people freaked out.
Some Christian extremist yelling "God wills it!" wouldn't have the same impact because much more often the political angle is not there, the motivation comes from believing God is talking to him. Anti-abortion bombers and shooters are an exception but Christians getting violent over a belief God wills it is much more rare than Muslims doing the same thing.
Two counterexamples disproving your theory, Anders Breivik had a religious and a political angle to his crazy ideology and people definitely made a huge deal out of it because it was a huge deal.
And this French guy that shot himself in the Notre Dame over gay marriage, the political angle to his actions is causing greater coverage and concern over it than otherwise.
Politics and religion mixing in such a fantastically violent way is a big deal to people in the West because it is alien to us; we used to be that way but not for hundreds of years. It's a cultural shock.
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On May 23 2013 06:33 maartendq wrote:
Random thugs attacking someone while screaming "alahu akhbar": a whole country on alert. Yep, it would seem that the terrorists have won.
I wonder what would happen if a christian extremist did the same screaming "God Wills It!".. That person would probably just be described as a madman.
Muslims killing people: terrorists out to destroy the country. People of other faiths killing people: just nutjobs we forgot to put in an insane asylum. Hypocrisy is the name of the game nowadays!
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but people get murdered every day for the most trivial reasons. I don't see why this particular case would warrant much attention.
No idea why but that part made me wanna watch KoH again, made me chuckle.
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On May 23 2013 06:38 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 06:33 maartendq wrote:
Random thugs attacking someone while screaming "alahu akhbar": a whole country on alert. Yep, it would seem that the terrorists have won.
I wonder what would happen if a christian extremist did the same screaming "God Wills It!".. That person would probably just be described as a madman.
Muslims killing people: terrorists out to destroy the country. People of other faiths killing people: nutjobs.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but people get murdered every day for the most trivial reasons. I don't see why this particular case would warrant much attention. Because there's a political angle in that. To jihadis politics and religion are very nearly the same thing so that gets people freaked out. Some Christian extremist yelling "God wills it!" wouldn't have the same impact because much more often the political angle is not there, the motivation comes from believing God is talking to him. Anti-abortion bombers and shooters are an exception but Christians getting violent over a belief God wills it is much more rare than Muslims doing the same thing. Two counterexamples disproving your theory, Anders Breivik had a religious and a political angle to his crazy ideology and people definitely made a huge deal out of it because it was a huge deal. And this French guy that shot himself in the Notre Dame over gay marriage, the political angle to his actions is causing greater coverage and concern over it than otherwise. Politics and religion mixing in such a fantastically violent way is a big deal to people in the West because it is alien to us; we used to be that way but not for hundreds of years. It's a cultural shock.
A little off topic, but Breivik cannot be considered cristian or religious. This is taken from his 'manifesto', which can be found online: + Show Spoiler +’m not going to pretend I’m a very religious person as that would be a lie. I’ve always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment. In the past, I remember I used to think;
“Religion is a crutch for weak people. What is the point in believing in a higher power if you have confidence in yourself!? Pathetic.”
Perhaps this is true for many cases. Religion is a crutch for many weak people and many embrace religion for self serving reasons as a source for drawing mental strength (to feed their weak emotional state f example during illness, death, poverty etc.). Since I am not a hypocrite, I’ll say directly that this is my agenda as well. However, I have not yet felt the need to ask God for strength, yet… But I’m pretty sure I will pray to God as I’m rushing through my city, guns blazing, with 100 armed system protectors pursuing me with the intention to stop and/or kill. I know there is a 80%+ chance I am going to die during the operation as I have no intention to surrender to them until I have completed all three primary objectives AND the bonus mission. When I initiate (providing I haven’t been apprehended before then), there is a 70% chance that I will complete the first objective, 40% for the second, 20% for the third and less than 5% chance that I will be able to complete the bonus mission. It is likely that I will pray to God for strength at one point during that operation, as I think most people in that situation would….If praying will act as an additional mental boost/soothing it is the pragmatical thing to do. I guess I will find out… If there is a God I will be allowed to enter heaven as all other martyrs for the Church in the past. (p. 1344)
It just bothers me that people consider him 'cristian'.
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On May 23 2013 06:33 maartendq wrote:
Random thugs attacking someone while screaming "alahu akhbar": a whole country on alert. Yep, it would seem that the terrorists have won.
I wonder what would happen if a christian extremist did the same screaming "God Wills It!".. That person would probably just be described as a madman.
Muslims killing people: terrorists out to destroy the country. People of other faiths killing people: just nutjobs we forgot to put in an insane asylum. Hypocrisy is the name of the game nowadays!
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but people get murdered every day for the most trivial reasons. I don't see why this particular case would warrant much attention.
Actually I think there would be more press if the person was christian. The media was making claims that the Boston bombers could be christian or right wing.
This is a big issue due to the number of Muslim/Islamic immigrants moving into the western world. I would think that these immigrants are moving into these countries for a better life.It seems that they do not want to assimilate into their host countries. It is also disturbing that the majority of Muslims want sharia law. Quite a few immigrants also believe that. As there are sharia law courts in England (Civil Courts)
"The percentage of Muslims who say they want sharia to be “the official law of the land” varies widely around the world, from fewer than one-in-ten in Azerbaijan (8%) to near unanimity in Afghanistan (99%). But solid majorities in most of the countries surveyed across the Middle East and North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia and Southeast Asia favor the establishment of sharia, including 71% of Muslims in Nigeria, 72% in Indonesia, 74% in Egypt and 89% in the Palestinian territories. "
The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society
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I'm sure the UK can handle this without losing their dignity. Stiff upper lip and all that. They weathered the terror of the IRA, some extremist idiots will not make them lose their shit (unlike other nations I could mention).
User was warned for this post
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On May 23 2013 06:42 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 06:38 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 23 2013 06:33 maartendq wrote:
Random thugs attacking someone while screaming "alahu akhbar": a whole country on alert. Yep, it would seem that the terrorists have won.
I wonder what would happen if a christian extremist did the same screaming "God Wills It!".. That person would probably just be described as a madman.
Muslims killing people: terrorists out to destroy the country. People of other faiths killing people: nutjobs.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but people get murdered every day for the most trivial reasons. I don't see why this particular case would warrant much attention. Because there's a political angle in that. To jihadis politics and religion are very nearly the same thing so that gets people freaked out. Some Christian extremist yelling "God wills it!" wouldn't have the same impact because much more often the political angle is not there, the motivation comes from believing God is talking to him. Anti-abortion bombers and shooters are an exception but Christians getting violent over a belief God wills it is much more rare than Muslims doing the same thing. Two counterexamples disproving your theory, Anders Breivik had a religious and a political angle to his crazy ideology and people definitely made a huge deal out of it because it was a huge deal. And this French guy that shot himself in the Notre Dame over gay marriage, the political angle to his actions is causing greater coverage and concern over it than otherwise. Politics and religion mixing in such a fantastically violent way is a big deal to people in the West because it is alien to us; we used to be that way but not for hundreds of years. It's a cultural shock. A little off topic, but Breivik cannot be considered cristian or religious. This is taken from his 'manifesto', which can be found online: + Show Spoiler +’m not going to pretend I’m a very religious person as that would be a lie. I’ve always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment. In the past, I remember I used to think;
“Religion is a crutch for weak people. What is the point in believing in a higher power if you have confidence in yourself!? Pathetic.”
Perhaps this is true for many cases. Religion is a crutch for many weak people and many embrace religion for self serving reasons as a source for drawing mental strength (to feed their weak emotional state f example during illness, death, poverty etc.). Since I am not a hypocrite, I’ll say directly that this is my agenda as well. However, I have not yet felt the need to ask God for strength, yet… But I’m pretty sure I will pray to God as I’m rushing through my city, guns blazing, with 100 armed system protectors pursuing me with the intention to stop and/or kill. I know there is a 80%+ chance I am going to die during the operation as I have no intention to surrender to them until I have completed all three primary objectives AND the bonus mission. When I initiate (providing I haven’t been apprehended before then), there is a 70% chance that I will complete the first objective, 40% for the second, 20% for the third and less than 5% chance that I will be able to complete the bonus mission. It is likely that I will pray to God for strength at one point during that operation, as I think most people in that situation would….If praying will act as an additional mental boost/soothing it is the pragmatical thing to do. I guess I will find out… If there is a God I will be allowed to enter heaven as all other martyrs for the Church in the past. (p. 1344) It just bothers me that people consider him 'cristian'.
He also said that his fantasy Europe would be:
"I believe Europe should strive for: A cultural conservative approach where monoculturalism, moral, the nuclear family, a free market, support for Israel and our Christian cousins of the east, law and order and Christendom itself must be central aspects (unlike now)."
He believed that Christianity in Europe today needed to be replaced with his nostalgic view of the muscular and vigorous Christianity of a Calvin or a Catherine d'Medici.
He also contradicted himself a bunch of times about religion and other things in his youtube videos and his manifesto, he wasn't exactly the smoothest ideologue.
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United States44450 Posts
There are not sharia law courts in England, no matter how much you hear it repeated. Two parties may voluntarily opt to ask a third party to offer non binding arbitration in a civil dispute rather than go through the courts. Should they not like the result they can still go through the courts. The third party can be a bloke from the pub if they want, it can also be a Muslim scholar who bases his solution upon sharia law. All it is is saving everyone money by offering to let people resolve their disputes among themselves if the dispute is not of a criminal nature.
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EPT
