EPT30 Days of Sexism - Alanah Pearce - Page 8
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Phil0s0pher
Australia317 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:14 MasterOfPuppets wrote: I'm not sure how I feel about this post. In a way, you got the right idea, but then again you don't really seem to. "Troll" designates a person making posts that he may or may not agree with, usually inflammatory or controversial in nature, for the sole purpose of garnering a reaction. In almost every conceivable case, if you react to it, the troll has won. There is no debating this, he/she wanted attention, you provided the attention, bam, the troll won. There are few exceptions, personally I love to analyze a troll for a little while before deconstructing their personality to them and trying, just like them, to provoke an emotional response by making them feel worthless and pathetic (which, I would argue, many trolls are). So while it's good that you're excited to have at them, some big, fancy moral crusade on the internet will really accomplish nothing more than satiate their craving for attention and validate them and their actions. And then, the fact that we here at Team Liquid have the privilege of not having to deal with these trolls is not indicative of anything. This is owed to a squad of hard-working moderators who have to sift through crappy threads on a daily basis and get rid of the shit posters. And it's challenging enough as it is, imagine that for a site with 5 or 10 times the active population. Team Liquid might look big, and we all love it, but in the grand scheme of things it's only a spec of sand in the desert that is the internet. And then, you assume that trolls are bullies. They're really not. Unlike in real life, on the internet it takes almost no effort at all to ignore them and their efforts. A troll is only as influential on you as you let him be. If you don't give him/her the attention and validation that they crave, they'll move on. Of course, like I mentioned earlier in passing, smacking them down can be equally effective sometimes. It's all about what you make it. If you let yourself be affected by these pathetic low-lives, then there's a problem. If you don't let them affect you, it's not. I somewhat agree, but then in saying that, there is also disagreement. I think Trolls are bullies, their tactics are exactly that of bullies, picking on those who they think are weaker (in a sense) then themselves. I understand what a Troll is, there is no need to designate a definition of trolling to me. I'm not calling for a moral crusade of the "Whole Internet", we need to start small, but having a community which stands up to people who are trolls and says "No, we will not allow ur bullshit to ruin us" is important. This may imply a mixture of ignoring the person or engaging with the "troll" to the extent that they tire themselves out...In terms of trying to out-troll-the-troll. I think we need to negate the premiss of the idea that "the troll is only as influential on you as you let him be" because trolling can have a passive influence, like a new member of tl seeing a thread which is full of bullshit and the community ignoring the bullshit. The new member may not appreciate that we aren't standing up to the bullshit and move on elsewhere. Like I said in my original post, our goal should be to grow and open boundaries not restrict them. | ||
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Prugelhugel
Austria637 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:23 zbedlam wrote: How is this person any different than any other person that gets trolled on the internet? Because she is a woman she should be treated like a sensitive flower petal? People like her are the REASON sexism is rampant on the internet. http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/ | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:20 McBengt wrote: Which was exactly the point. The word has mutated into some kind of strange colloquialism for women complaining about stuff. Like I said, extremists overriding an intellectual train of thought. Some women out there who found this and hopped onto the bandwagon, ironically under the guise of gender equality but in reality for nothing more than their own personal benefit, an entitlement that may not be criticized lest you face being called a redneck bigot. Obviously they're not indicative of feminists in general or feminism as a movement, but it's an indisputable fact that these people exist and they've been very influential in making the terms feminist and feminism get this connotation that is, as you put it, "so loaded and toxic". | ||
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McBengt
Sweden1684 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:19 gedatsu wrote: That is not its actual definition, and feminism is not *the* struggle for equality between the sexes. The definition of feminism is more complicated than that (first of all it requires that you subscribe to patriarchy theory), and there are other struggles for equality between the sexes. See for example MRA. There is a huge difference between feminism (an ideology) and equality (which is the alleged goal of said ideology). To try to equalize feminism with either equality or "the" struggle for equality, is nothing but an attempt to silence differing opinions ("you think X so you must be a feminist, but you also said Y which is not feminist so you have to stop saying Y"). Furthermore, people can have different opinions about what equality truly means. Bob defines equality as when all men go to work and all women stay at home to cook and clean, but both these jobs are equally valued. You wouldn't call Bob a feminist, would you? It's the same error as, say, labeling libertarianism as "the" struggle for freedom. Freedom is the goal of libertarianism, but it's not the only ideology that aims for freedom and different people have different ideas of what freedom really is. So no. Stop telling lies about feminism. It does not do your movement any good anyway. I never suggested it was the only struggle, or that it would confine anyone to a specific set of values. It's a malleable concept, more a general idea than a laundry list of issues. I'm not really sure how anyone could not recognize at least parts of the patriarchy, it has some fairly extensive historic backing. As for Bob, I'd probably call him an asshole. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Of course sexism on the internet is appalling but I would appreciate the message SO much more if it weren't coming from a journalist at the start of her career. So much of this article reeks of 'what can I write about?'. If it were a paper made by someone who stands to gain far less directly to their career from the attention and increased profile it would be easier to accept...because the message is fair enough. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
I haven't seen anything from the woman writing the article, maybe she's just one of those gamers who want to do games for a living, but there are a lot of women (and, I guess, probably men too) in the industry who simply don't care about gaming, or their appearance, who are simply trying to build a career in media by bandwagoning on this whole "gamer" thing, which is resented by people who consider themselves "true" gamers, and she's probably getting alot of the crap she's getting because of both of those groups. The women who wear revealing clothing, post instagrams of themselves licking xbox controllers and clearly have no clue what they are talking about, should they get the same respect men in jeans and t-shirts or suits get when they actually produce worthwhile content? Or for that matter, women? No, are you kidding me? Using sex to sell shit should not be encouraged, it's a blatant attempt to bypass our mammalian brains right into the wallet next to our libido, and it's insulting. Sure, everyone should have the freedom to do it, but I'm gonna go ahead and judge the shit out of them based on my own values all the same. Just like I think game developers should be ridiculed and boycotted for making their female models fight wars dressed in thongs. Not because women shouldn't be allowed to fight war in thongs, if they want to die I guess that's their business, but because the sales pitch is so embarrassingly transparent, they are insulting their audience. Are the people in the youtube comments retards? Of course they are, the youtube comments are the black sheep of the internet. It's the lowest form of content. And guess what, assholes gonna asshole. As far as I'm concerned it could just as well have been a gay man, or a black man, or a man with a lisp, or a man wearing the wrong shirt, or a man with a unibrow, or a man with large forearms. This has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with people being dickwads on the internet. Which, in itself, is nothing new. As it happens, I also have a problem with affirmative action. A girl is holding the mic at the SC finals, clearly, clearly because she is a girl, not because she's the best person for the job. Just like the token black guy in the all-white cast on TV. But unlike the token black guy, the girl with the mic wasn't put there to promote acceptance or girls in e-sports. Just like the infamous "booth babes", she was put there because the producers figured they'd get more viewers if the announcer had tits. It's ugly and it sucks, but it's insulting to the community and it's unfair to the girl with the mic. If we promote girls in the industry for no better reason than because they are girls we're not helping, we're hurting. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:24 Phil0s0pher wrote: I somewhat agree, but then in saying that, there is also disagreement. I think Trolls are bullies, their tactics are exactly that of bullies, picking on those who they think are weaker (in a sense) then themselves. I understand what a Troll is, there is no need to designate a definition of trolling to me. I'm not calling for a moral crusade of the "Whole Internet", we need to start small, but having a community which stands up to people who are trolls and says "No, we will not allow ur bullshit to ruin us" is important. This may imply a mixture of ignoring the person or engaging with the "troll" to the extent that they tire themselves out...In terms of trying to out-troll-the-troll. I think we need to negate the premiss of the idea that "the troll is only as influential on you as you let him be" because trolling can have a passive influence, like a new member of tl seeing a thread which is full of bullshit and the community ignoring the bullshit. The new member may not appreciate that we aren't standing up to the bullshit and move on elsewhere. Like I said in my original post, our goal should be to grow and open boundaries not restrict them. Well I'm not advocating that we let trolls run rampant, but rather that we don't talk to them, or even about any particular troll. Let them be banned, but don't respond to them or take their posts as being legitimate. I think that would be even more painful for a troll, getting banned before managing to provoke any response. Basically, don't validate his existence or presence and let the mods deal with him. Of course, this only goes for communities where there are sufficient active moderators. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:25 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Like I said, extremists overriding an intellectual train of thought. Some women out there who found this and hopped onto the bandwagon, ironically under the guise of gender equality but in reality for nothing more than their own personal benefit, an entitlement that may not be criticized lest you face being called a redneck bigot. Obviously they're not indicative of feminists in general or feminism as a movement, but it's an indisputable fact that these people exist and they've been very influential in making the terms feminist and feminism get this connotation that is, as you put it, "so loaded and toxic". This is not true at all, feminists are generally misrepresented in the media not because only extremist groups are highlighted, but because common feminist beliefs/groups are framed as extremist. On May 02 2013 21:27 Osmoses wrote: Just like I think game developers should be ridiculed and boycotted for making their female models fight wars dressed in thongs. Not because women shouldn't be allowed to fight war in thongs, if they want to die I guess that's their business, but because the sales pitch is so embarrassingly transparent, they are insulting their audience. http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=975038&page=1 someone tried this and was ridiculed by the dota community. Apparently the audience wasn't very insulted... | ||
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McBengt
Sweden1684 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:27 Osmoses wrote: As it happens, I also have a problem with affirmative action. A girl is holding the mic at the SC finals, clearly, clearly because she is a girl, not because she's the best person for the job. Just like the token black guy in the all-white cast on TV. But unlike the token black guy, the girl with the mic wasn't put there to promote acceptance or girls in e-sports. Just like the infamous "booth babes", she was put there because the producers figured they'd get more viewers if the announcer had tits. It's ugly and it sucks, but it's insulting to the community and it's unfair to the girl with the mic. If we promote girls in the industry for no better reason than because they are girls we're not helping, we're hurting. This irritates me beyond my ability to explain in the english language. It's an insult to my intelligence, and my sincerity. I am at the point where I will simply mute the stream and play something else or browse youtube between games. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:31 Grumbels wrote: This is not true at all, feminists are generally misrepresented in the media not because only extremist groups are highlighted, but because common feminist beliefs/groups are framed as extremist. This goes back to my previous post, that extremists are the ones who always garner the most media coverage and attention. Too bad the media is all about ratings and controversy rather than actual information. (and this is why the issue is complicated, because it has its roots in other problems of society as well) | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway348 Posts
Now, being a woman means that part of whatever harassment she gets will be of a sexual nature. Nobody thinks this is acceptable, just like calling someone a goatfucker is not acceptable language. That's why this sort of comments come up - they are being deliberately offensive, in whatever way they think might get to her. Unless she gets extra abuse for being a woman, on top of what everybody gets on the internet for being surrounded by too many anonymous assholes, this does not have anything to do with sexism. The difference between a minority being offensive pricks on purpose and a problem of sexism in the society is sort of important, just like telling the difference between a girlfriend cheating on you and labeling women in general as sluts. | ||
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Kotreb
Croatia1392 Posts
What i'm trying to say is that those who believe/fight for the equality of all the people in the name of feminism are hampering themselves and their goal from the start. In the end, even if you manage to achieve your goal, some may question it because of that specific notion in the name of general/global thing. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:31 Grumbels wrote: This is not true at all, feminists are generally misrepresented in the media not because only extremist groups are highlighted, but because common feminist beliefs/groups are framed as extremist. http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=975038&page=1 someone tried this and was ridiculed by the dota community. Apparently the audience wasn't very insulted... That thread hardly seems unanimous. Seems a pretty clear case of vocal minority to me. | ||
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:26 McBengt wrote: I never suggested it was the only struggle, or that it would confine anyone to a specific set of values. It's a malleable concept, more a general idea than a laundry list of issues. I'm not really sure how anyone could not recognize at least parts of the patriarchy, it has some fairly extensive historic backing. As for Bob, I'd probably call him an asshole. Yes you did. Right here: Nothing. Feminism is the struggle for equality between the sexes, that is its actual definition. Patriarchy theory states, in general terms, that society benefits men at the expense of women. In my opinion the reverse is closer to the truth: if society can be said to have a purpose, it is to protect and serve women. Usually at men's expense. If you look at the groups in society with the lowest standing, they are all male. We think to ourselves that it is their own faults for ending up there, but if a woman were to end up there with them, we look for a culprit. When girls do poorly in school, we blame the school system, but when boys do poorly in school we blame the boys. Ironically, the reason that feminism sees such success is also the very thing that feminism tries to fight. Because at its core it is still a bunch of women complaining about stuff, and society doing what it has always done: rising to fix their problem. It is a very sexist behavior, but it is one that benefits women. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10716 Posts
I'm all for equality, but my "problems" are that it does not seem that "simple"... Examples: Payment inequality is a problem, but studies have shown that part of this is due to women demanding less than men and therefore often end up being paid less. I'm 100% for equal pay, but to adress this issue you would have to "hardcode" the paiements a person in a specific job/position/company can get. In Switzerland men are pretty much predestined losers when it comes to a divorce and all the things related to this. Boys do GENERALLY worse in schools than girls (ithe diffrence is actually growing) Boys have a (way) higher suicide rate in their teens (i can't imagine the shitstorm feminists would make if this would be the other way around). Not many Women are leading big companies. Now, my problem with "feminism" is that they only care for 2 of these problems, the two dealing directly with woman. As for the topic here: My problem is, that this does not shout "sexism" at me and i don't like her playing the "sexism" card, it's 08/15 internet trolling... It's not good but i don't really see how to change this "in general" (other than moderation and disabling comments). | ||
zatic
Zurich15328 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:35 Kotreb wrote: Ok, there seems to be a lot of discrepancy here between the definition of the meaning. Despite what philospher says, i think people should determine the basic terms and their meanings before having any argument. Because, honestly, women being equal on all grounds doesn't bother me (feminism, at least wiki definiton), but what bothers me is that someone seeks rights for all the people while centered around one term (like i said before, seeking equality for all the people with the term feminism, who is centered around women and their rights). If it is the same, then why isn't it called gypsyism, arabism etc. (you get the point). I don't understand your problem with this. Feminism is about gender equality. If it was about ethnic equality it would probably be called something different. | ||
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NDDseer
Australia204 Posts
On May 02 2013 19:03 ven wrote: People on the internet being assholes is news to anyone? Give me a break. This guy has it down. Complaining about trolls on the internet is like rolling in a dog shit you see on the sidewalk and screaming "Why do people let their dogs do this?" instead of just walking around it. The whole thing seems like a "I'm female, flock to my defense plz!!!" plea. If the gaming community is so bad, just leave. Noones forcing you to play games, and there's no requirement to participate in any gaming communities as a part of playing games anyway, so if you enjoy games but not trolls then just stay off the internet. Jesus. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On May 02 2013 19:39 KwarK wrote: The replies to this topic so far have been pretty demoralising. Whenever a topic like this comes along I like teamliquid a little less. This. I don't even bother actually replying to these kinds of things anymore, it just makes me sad.  .... :'( | ||
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