EPTHuh
Well I guess it could change.
We'll just have to get rid of that bothersome puberty thing.
30 Days of Sexism - Alanah Pearce - Page 10
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
Huh Well I guess it could change. We'll just have to get rid of that bothersome puberty thing. | ||
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McBengt
Sweden1684 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:53 MasterOfPuppets wrote: I really don't understand why it's so hard to be civil and courteous to your fellow man and explain to him why your opinion is different, or indeed, why he's wrong, rather than being condescending, trying to stigmatize him as "one of those" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and pretty much calling ggnore without making an argument. It's just poor form to be arguing like "no u", "no u", especially when, playing devil's advocate, one can also misconstrue feminism as "strange persecution complex; labour under the massive misapprehension that society does not generally favour females." I'm just saying, you're doing a poor job of representing your case and belief if this is how you're going to argue. Refuting his points about how society is actually sexist in reverse and favours women would be an exercise in futility, and a very time-consuming one at that. Historical documentation is readily available on the subject, and it's rather unequivocal. I don't really argue with people who say the earth is flat, and for similar reasons. Arguing that women have not been oppressed and that feminism is some ploy to get freebies and extra perks is simply beneath what I consider a rational enough argument to combat. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
We'll just have to get rid of that bothersome puberty thing. It's more about nowadays parents behaviour and general education that are pathetic. We live in a society where you're supposed to shit on everybody to get a good place, how do you want kids/adolescents to think about respect and empathy? | ||
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NDDseer
Australia204 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:57 BallinWitStalin wrote: People down-vote it, they do post against it, and it's a complete consensus that this sort of behavior is inappropriate. It doesn't even need to be discussed, because 90% of people would instantly say "this guy is a fucking asshole", and he'd get banned. The same attitude is not taken regarding sexism. Think about it, didn't a caster even get fired for using the n-word in matches before? I mean, that was even a bit much, but it goes to show you the level at which that sort of stuff isn't tolerated. Ultimately, most of the posters should just end up being ignored, with moderators taking whatever action feasible against them (which is what happens on this site, for example). But it's okay to discuss the issue without resorting to insulting the person who feels seriously impacted by it. I do genuinely feel like many posters on gaming websites have weird resentment issues towards women. It's definitely something I find strange.... Exactly. So the situation is either a. You decide to post on well-moderated sites where "unacceptable" behaviour will be filtered out for you b. You venture out into the rest of the Internet, and cop the same flak as everyone else It's pretty rich to say "Well I want to be able to put myself all over the Internet, but be assured minority protection as I would receive in the moderated parts, because I am a woman". You can't have your cake and eat it. And as I understand it, this woman has videos on Youtube and plays around with Reddit, which means she is definitely volunteering herself for the shit-filled side. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On May 02 2013 18:33 FrogOfWar wrote: The video game youtuber Alanah Pearce has written a piece on the sexism she encounters online that I think is relevant to gaming culture, especially pertaining to the question why there aren't more females into video games and how this could be changed: Quote: Before I record the videos I create for various different companies I change my shirt from the loosely fitting singlet I usually wear during the day, to a high-collared t-shirt that will minimise my chances of being objectified. It’s less comfortable, it’s not what I would generally choose to wear, but I do it in attempt to avoid comments about my breasts, my chest, and my physique in general – I try to negate any harassment I possibly can. ... Obviously, it doesn’t work. Instead of having people disregard gender entirely as it really shouldn’t be relevant to a video about game news, there are streams of responses from men complaining that a woman hasn’t revealed herself to them, as though it’s expected or it’s their right to ask for that. Not only is this incredibly discouraging – these videos take hours and hours of effort to create – it’s easy to feel like you simply can’t win. You can only ignore the comments, but that would make responding to the pleasant viewers or the ones who ask genuine questions impossible. http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/04/30-days-of-sexism/ This will probably be nothing fundamentally new for most, but the examples she uses are really sickening and it's interesting to read abaut her thoughts and feelings when that stuff is posted. She makes the comparison to a normal office job, where something like that would be considered extreme cases of mobbing/harassment and would be a strong reason to quit your job if the situation can't be remedied. She also says that she has in fact considered leaving the community and that the posters who oppose the insulting ones (who are sometimes ridiculed as "white knights" I might add) are part of what kept her going so far. If jerks on the internet are given a free-pass and allowed to hide behind anonymity when they’re being sexist to someone, then there’s absolutely no reason you can’t use that same anonymity to criticise or educate them. Honestly, just seeing one down-vote or having one person stick up for me is a part of the reason I’m still here and I’m not going to stop fighting. Every single person has the power to fight sexism. This is maybe a good occasion to say thank you to the TL.net mods for doing a great job in keeping this site civil. You're not going to educate the typical anonymous kid on the internet. These are the same people that will post anything just hoping you'll respond in any fashion. It doesn't matter if you acknowledge them they won't change, but they will feel as if the succeeded. Also I have seen her work, and it is fairly well done and tasteful, but then 2 streams over you have NASL with the playboy model, and the Barbie(i think) streamer with a cam view of pretty much just her tits. People just don't see the difference I guess, where one streamer lures viewers in with tits and the other attempts to lure them in with hard work. Maybe I myself should give more props when others are being distasteful in all streams/youtube comments, but I simply don't find it worth the time. Kids are going to be kids. | ||
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Kotreb
Croatia1392 Posts
btw, i wrote "of only one group", not "only for one group", changes the meaning completely. @marvellosity: she is complaining about that feminism today is all about destroying men, not equality for women and that she doesn't conform to that idea. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On May 02 2013 22:00 Nimix wrote: It's more about nowadays parents behaviour and general education that are pathetic. We live in a society where you're supposed to shit on everybody to get a good place, how do you want kids/adolescents to think about respect and empathy? Oh so you're going with the old traditional family values argument and the "I REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN YOUNGUNS WERE RESPECTFUL AND WELL MANNERED ALL THE TIME" argument. 1/10 Every generation likes to think this, but it's never been true. | ||
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PaNiCterrran
Sweden47 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:41 NDDseer wrote: This guy has it down. Complaining about trolls on the internet is like rolling in a dog shit you see on the sidewalk and screaming "Why do people let their dogs do this?" instead of just walking around it. The whole thing seems like a "I'm female, flock to my defense plz!!!" plea. If the gaming community is so bad, just leave. Noones forcing you to play games, and there's no requirement to participate in any gaming communities as a part of playing games anyway, so if you enjoy games but not trolls then just stay off the internet. Jesus. It's these kind of responses that makes me so pissed. Just leave? She clearly enjoys what she is doing when she's not being harassed. With that logic we should probably also let bullies run rampant in school and if the victims don't like it they can go to another school. And if immigrants are being treated poorly in their new country, tell them to gtfo. In general I feel people aren't taking women seriously enough, especially on the internet. There is probably not a single video on youtube with over 1000 000 views featuring a woman where she isn't sexually subjugated somewhere in the comment section. And now that she highlights this people are shrugging this off, saying she's only out for attention. Besides, who would't complain about dog shits on the sidewalk, that's disgusting. | ||
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:48 McBengt wrote: Oh, ok, you're one of those. I am sorry that you have this strange persecution complex and that you labour under the massive misapprehension that society does not generally favour males. Your claims are a tad bit ridiculous, but I am glad you agree with yourself. Good job ignoring the issues I brought up. If you try hard enough, maybe you can will them out of existence. I see that you are from Sweden. Here are some fun facts about feminism and equality in Sweden: 1) women had the right to vote before men did, 1921 vs 1923. 2) when the male-only military draft was ended in 2010, only the feminist parties were in opposition. 3) women earn about 85% of what men do (not because of discrimination, but because of working less and in different jobs). However, due to high taxes and welfare payouts, women more than make up for the difference in a lifetime. 4) it is illegal to mutilate a baby girl's genitals, but perfectly ok to mutilate a baby boy's. 5) a woman gets two different ways out of an unwanted pregnancy, regardless of what the father feels. A man gets none, unless the woman agrees with him. 6) girls receive better grades simply for being girls. When the examiner does not know the gender of the examinee, girls do not get this bonus. 7) women receive lighter sentences by the judicial system, when committing the same crime. Now why don't you tell me some of the benefits I enjoy simply for being a man. | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1092 Posts
Have to say alot of these video's and posts have really opened my eyes to a problem I knew nothing off (because I don't tend to do much of youtubing and most of the people I watch are pro's), but it's pretty sickening how females are treated by essentially children for literally no reason. There was an article on Polygon not that long ago that was about a woman who used to be pro at guitar hero/rock band and some of the clips she had from other scenes where just sickening. I don't understand it at all, and it would be something I wish we as a community would be actively and almost aggressively against. Opening 'gaming' up to as many people as possible (be they male/female) is only a positive as it brings more money to our scene and allows us to grow and be taken seriously. | ||
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Sugarfluff
Sweden132 Posts
On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote: Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard. The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan. Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." I don't really agree with this statement. Holding certain values to yourself doesn't, in my eyes, qualify you for anything. Sure I believe in those things and I hope they're successfully implemented. But that's it. I have other causes I, personally, feel strongly for and actively do something about. I'm here merely to educate myself further on one of societies issues. Most problems do stem from ignorance so I suppose simple self education could be seen as a small step in the right direction, or some such. And if that is all it takes in your eyes feel free to call me a feminist, but I will not. I am not a feminist and I am not a bigot. This might have been slightly off-topic. Wanted to give my opinion on it since the whole "you are a feminist or you are a bigot, there is no middle ground" annoys me. | ||
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mbsupermario
United States101 Posts
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NDDseer
Australia204 Posts
On May 02 2013 22:06 PaNiCterrran wrote: It's these kind of responses that makes me so pissed. Just leave? She clearly enjoys what she is doing when she's not being harassed. With that logic we should probably also let bullies run rampant in school and if the victims don't like it they can go to another school. And if immigrants are being treated poorly in their new country, tell them to gtfo. In general I feel people aren't taking women seriously enough, especially on the internet. There is probably not a single video on youtube with over 1000 000 views featuring a woman where she isn't sexually subjugated somewhere in the comment section. And now that she highlights this people are shrugging this off, saying she's only out for attention. Besides, who would't complain about dog shits on the sidewalk, that's disgusting. For sure, there probably isn't. Youtube "Jenna Marbles", and marvel at the occasional pathetic "Can I have your babies?" (also considered by Alanah to be "offensive" and "sexist" when it's really just an incredibly pitiable female-glorification). I think you might struggle to find "tits or gtfo" comments though, and Marbles has hundreds of thousands of views per video. Edit: the thing that differentiates the internet from a sidewalk is that there are both moderated and unmoderated sections of it, and if you choose to walk in the unmoderated bits you're going to see shit there. Noone comes to China and then starts kicking up a fuss about people spitting on the street, if you want to not see that then you live in America. Also note that any access to the internet (unlike countries, in case you fail with this one too) permits access to all of it, which is obviously different in the real world. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
You can't do, on one hand, what you can to draw the douchiest part of the "gaming community" to you (as this community exist in the first place) and at the same time whine because the guys who respond to your videos only talk about your tits. I don't understand those people that don't get what is the internet. Publicize yourself as a black, gay, french, spanish, german, japanese, or whatever, and you will get shit upon, you will draw out insults from frustrated people, that's how it is. So just stop being a "female" gamer and be a gamer, period. There is no need to tell to strangers that you are a girl when you play on the internet, no reasons at all. But yeah, if she did not tell everyone that she indeed was a girl, she could never pursue a "carreer" in the gaming community. Ho the hypocrisy. | ||
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SolPhantSN
21 Posts
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Darkwhite
Norway348 Posts
On May 02 2013 22:08 baldgye wrote: There was an article on Polygon not that long ago that was about a woman who used to be pro at guitar hero/rock band and some of the clips she had from other scenes where just sickening. I don't understand it at all, and it would be something I wish we as a community would be actively and almost aggressively against. What sort of activity and aggression do you suggest, short of not responding to comments, moderating and deleting comments where feasible and banning offenders where possible? This seems to be the current standard. Do you also suggest we police people not picking up their dogs' droppings more actively and aggressively? Or do you think there might be some threshold level which is hard to get rid of? | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
On May 02 2013 22:06 PaNiCterrran wrote: It's these kind of responses that makes me so pissed. Just leave? She clearly enjoys what she is doing when she's not being harassed. With that logic we should probably also let bullies run rampant in school and if the victims don't like it they can go to another school. And if immigrants are being treated poorly in their new country, tell them to gtfo. In general I feel people aren't taking women seriously enough, especially on the internet. There is probably not a single video on youtube with over 1000 000 views featuring a woman where she isn't sexually subjugated somewhere in the comment section. And now that she highlights this people are shrugging this off, saying she's only out for attention. Besides, who would't complain about dog shits on the sidewalk, that's disgusting. Isn't this the same thing though as Incontrol being called fat all the time(though at DH he did look good imo) and streams from every race being called whatever expletive, and the popular flamer being called a f** in every youtube video he posts? It isn't about people not taking women seriously. It is that kids don't have to give a shit they want to talk shit 24/7 if it is from the safety of their computer. To stop all the harassment you would need a virtual beat down program installed on all computers. And since that won't happen you simply just need to either have people moderate your comments/chats, grow thicker skin, and keep doing what you want. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
Grow some thick skin or get off the internet. That's how its been since the year 2000. | ||
zatic
Zurich15328 Posts
On May 02 2013 22:04 Kotreb wrote: @ zatic: i'm wondering why isn't it called egalitarianism, which denotes equality in its basic meaning? Maybe i'm misinformed but from what i've read feminism is about women equality (sure, you can say it's gender quality) but then what about racism, minorities etc? They should also be equal but it has nothing to do with the gender when it comes to those problems. btw, i wrote "of only one group", not "only for one group", changes the meaning completely. Egalitarianism is not specific to gender issues. Feminism is about gender equality, specifically. Again, there is no such thing as "women equality", there is just equality between men and women = gender equality. Racism, minorities, etc are different topics from gender equality, that is why they are not included in the term. | ||
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Jormundr
United States1678 Posts
On May 02 2013 22:17 zatic wrote: Egalitarianism is not specific to gender issues. Feminism is about gender equality, specifically. Again, there is no such thing as "women equality", there is just equality between men and women = gender equality. Racism, minorities, etc are different topics from gender equality, that is why they are not included in the term. Feminism is about women. It sometimes tips the balance in certain areas towards equality, but its main goal is to improve the conditions of women. This is different than a gender equality perspective, which is neutral. | ||
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