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On May 02 2013 21:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 20:55 Phil0s0pher wrote:
We should not be discussing the meta-philosophical debates of feminism or what they stand for. That is not exactly for us to discuss. We should discuss how we can better accept female gamers into our community, into the greater gaming community. Gender Issues do not have a place in a forum on Starcraft and DotA, there is no need for them. You think there is no connection between the way that men treat women online and the way they treat them offline? In the first three pages this topic went through "boys will be boys", "she's overreacting", "she just wants attention" and "she was asking for abuse by being a woman who men are aware of". The immediate responses sexist men are giving here are entirely representative of the behavior of men generally which comes down to feminism and gender theory. The problems she is experiencing online are rooted in the same shit that leads to rape apologism. If you think you can view this in isolation then you just don't get it.
No, I agree with you. I think you must have slightly misread me, I meant was that discussions on the specific meaning of the ideology of feminism don't actually help us in the situation we are trying to discuss. I added on by saying 'Gender Issues do not have a place in a forum on Starcraft', but because of the things you stated, they do, but because people enforce them by always using them
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Just one question, isn't feminism the movement for the equality of the women while the movement for the equality (can't remember the name right now,maybe egalitarianism) should be for equality of all the people?
edit: Kreb was a bit faster than me
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United States43293 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:03 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote:
Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard.
The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan.
Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." While I somewhat agree with what you say, whats the difference between "feminism" and "equality" (between sexes) then? The word feminism is kinda missleading in that case, since it quite clearly indicates its about something related to..... females.
Not much, the difference between a humanist and a feminist in my opinion is basically that a humanist is unaware of the gender issues in society so doesn't take a stance on them. If he knew how fucked shit was then he'd suddenly find himself firmly in the feminist camp. Fortunately you can be both, you don't have to stop caring about men to become a feminist.
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On May 02 2013 21:03 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote:
Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard.
The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan.
Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." While I somewhat agree with what you say, whats the difference between "feminism" and "equality" (between sexes) then? The word feminism is kinda missleading in that case, since it quite clearly indicates its about something related to..... females.
Nothing. Feminism is the struggle for equality between the sexes, that is its actual definition. The two are interchangable, the reason it was called feminism was simply because females have historically been oppressed and disenfranchised.
Just one question, isn't feminism the movement for the equality of the women while the movement for the equality (can't remember the name right now,maybe egalitarianism) should be for equality of all the people?
Again, basically the same. If males had been in the historical shoes of females, the situation would have been reversed. A struggle for equality necessitates a concerted effort to empower disenfranchised groups.
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United States43293 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:06 Kotreb wrote:
Just one question, isn't feminism the movement for the equality of the women while the movement for the equality (can't remember the name right now,maybe egalitarianism) should be for equality of all the people?
edit: Kreb was a bit faster than me
No, historically feminism has actually been pretty shitty at advocating equality among women having largely been in the interests of white middle class straight women. That's one of the reasons feminism has become so splintered.
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I realise a fair few of you seem to think females are the only one affected by this sort of behaviour. This is simply absurd i suggest you see this link. He covers some of the basic ideas feminists often argue. The fact is that humans tend to pick on the minority (I realise this is not always the case but a lot of the time, it is). In the gaming community woman are a minority, this is a fact, you cannot argue against this. That being said, it is not only females who are a minority. If you are overweight, disabled, mentally challenged etc. you will find similar cases. Instead of harping on about solely women (I realise the topic of the thread is focused on women and it cannot be avoided), we need to be aiming for equality, and this means for all demographics.
Now, the problem with abuse over of the Internet is derived from a number of things but none of these are easily changed. For example, moderating chat is one way of attacking this problem but it can be time consuming and often too slow, you need moderators who volunteer and are trustworthy (two traits harder to find than you might think) with large scale streams and videos with hundreds of thousands of views this is simply not feasible. My point is discussing this topic is one thing but when it comes to tackling this problem, no one seems to have the answers which are easy to implement and this is because they don't exist. Companies like twitch are a business, their primary goal is to make a profit, if something like moderating chat is not going to help make a profit, they will not endorse it.
MasterOfPuppets is making a good argument in understanding the fundamental problems with this topic and saying if Alanah Pearce cannot cope in this working environment she needs to either leave or adapt. Adapting will involve IGNORING a large portion if not all of these derogatory comments (which to be honest are not particularly bad compared to some comments) if she cannot do this, due to the fundamental issues I have talked about above she will not survive and does not belong.
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On May 02 2013 21:07 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:03 Kreb wrote:On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote:
Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard.
The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan.
Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." While I somewhat agree with what you say, whats the difference between "feminism" and "equality" (between sexes) then? The word feminism is kinda missleading in that case, since it quite clearly indicates its about something related to..... females. Nothing. Feminism is the struggle for equality between the sexes, that is its actual definition. The two are interchangable, the reason it was called feminism was simply because females have historically been oppressed and disenfranchised.
Actually that is not the definition, but you made your point.
@Kwark: then this is confusing to me. How can you fight for the rights of all the people but be more focused or center your fight around one group?
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Kwark beat me to another thread again  Time to lurk for hours while this plays out again 
But to those saying that the girls should grow a backbone, that statement shows extreme evidence of your privilege. Even in New England, the so called most accepting and tolerant place in the US thought that many blacks were asking for too much during civil rights.
Oh god, someone just linked AmazingAtheist
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On May 02 2013 19:48 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 19:44 edlover420 wrote:
KwarK you don't get it. Her complaining is the same as it would be if I complained for every time I get flamed after starcraft match by my opponent. It's pointless. Unless you hold her to the different standards because she's a female. Than you are the most sexist person here.
Also you're tone with idontthinksobro was extremely hateful and it's pretty uncalled for. You can't compare sexual harassment, even online to that of getting flamed at the end of a starcraft. The point is, had she been a man, this wouldn't happen, and its not fair that because she wants to do what she enjoys she should be assaulted because of her sex.
what?
everyone on the internet gets flamed all the time for no reason whatsoever. the more you show of yourself the more you get flamed.
that isnt a female-exclusive.
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On May 02 2013 21:05 Phil0s0pher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:01 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2013 20:55 Phil0s0pher wrote:
We should not be discussing the meta-philosophical debates of feminism or what they stand for. That is not exactly for us to discuss. We should discuss how we can better accept female gamers into our community, into the greater gaming community. Gender Issues do not have a place in a forum on Starcraft and DotA, there is no need for them. You think there is no connection between the way that men treat women online and the way they treat them offline? In the first three pages this topic went through "boys will be boys", "she's overreacting", "she just wants attention" and "she was asking for abuse by being a woman who men are aware of". The immediate responses sexist men are giving here are entirely representative of the behavior of men generally which comes down to feminism and gender theory. The problems she is experiencing online are rooted in the same shit that leads to rape apologism. If you think you can view this in isolation then you just don't get it. No, I agree with you. I think you must have slightly misread me, I meant was that discussions on the specific meaning of the ideology of feminism don't actually help us in the situation we are trying to discuss. I added on by saying 'Gender Issues do not have a place in a forum on Starcraft', but because of the things you stated, they do, but because people enforce them by always using them
Showing people that feminism is nothing to be afraid of is a big part of making women more comfortable in male-dominated online communities.
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I don't really think that writing this article is going to make any of these people stop being assholes but maybe I'm wrong.
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On May 02 2013 20:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 20:54 stroggozz wrote:
dam there is so much hate vs women on the internet.
if you arn't a feminist you are a bigot. This should be an uncontroversial fact. Or simply ignorant of feminism. I think an awful lot of people have no real clue about the issues. The fact that they deliberately wallow in their ignorance is also somewhat problematic.
being ignorant of feminism, in my views makes you a bigot. I mean 2000 years ago women were a mans property. Does that make them sexist? Does it make them ignorant of feminism even though it would have taken genius to conceive of the type of rights women have now? Yes for both of them. They may not have been bigots by nature, but imposed bigotry is still bigotry.
There is a good article i read a month or two back on aljazeera. Strip clubs have been eliminated in iceland, and the country is now ranked #1 in gender equality, up from #4.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/04/20134274739879996.html
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On May 02 2013 20:55 Phil0s0pher wrote:
I am of the opinion that if enough people seek to change something, then change will occur. If people stand up to the bully in the playground then the bully will become powerless. Trolls are anonymous bullies (most of them are also idiots). As a community we should acknowledge the troll and drive them out with fire and pitchforks. Burning their metaphorical bodies on a pile of wood. Most people at this suggestion will say "but if we do that, the troll wins". No, That is complete bullshit, we must reject this logic. We must look upon the troll like a bug that has infected our computers, inhibiting our ability to live a fulfilling life and say to that piece of shit "NOT TODAY!" As a community we must stand together against this kind of bullshit. Against not only sexism, but also Racism and Homophobia. The troll, the attention seeking parasite has no power against those who do not accept the premiss of the troll.
I'm not sure how I feel about this post. In a way, you got the right idea, but then again you don't really seem to.
"Troll" designates a person making posts that he may or may not agree with, usually inflammatory or controversial in nature, for the sole purpose of garnering a reaction. In almost every conceivable case, if you react to it, the troll has won. There is no debating this, he/she wanted attention, you provided the attention, bam, the troll won. There are few exceptions, personally I love to analyze a troll for a little while before deconstructing their personality to them and trying, just like them, to provoke an emotional response by making them feel worthless and pathetic (which, I would argue, many trolls are).
So while it's good that you're excited to have at them, some big, fancy moral crusade on the internet will really accomplish nothing more than satiate their craving for attention and validate them and their actions.
And then, the fact that we here at Team Liquid have the privilege of not having to deal with these trolls is not indicative of anything. This is owed to a squad of hard-working moderators who have to sift through crappy threads on a daily basis and get rid of the shit posters. And it's challenging enough as it is, imagine that for a site with 5 or 10 times the active population. Team Liquid might look big, and we all love it, but in the grand scheme of things it's only a spec of sand in the desert that is the internet.
And then, you assume that trolls are bullies. They're really not. Unlike in real life, on the internet it takes almost no effort at all to ignore them and their efforts. A troll is only as influential on you as you let him be. If you don't give him/her the attention and validation that they crave, they'll move on. Of course, like I mentioned earlier in passing, smacking them down can be equally effective sometimes.
It's all about what you make it. If you let yourself be affected by these pathetic low-lives, then there's a problem. If you don't let them affect you, it's not.
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On May 02 2013 21:12 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:05 Phil0s0pher wrote:On May 02 2013 21:01 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2013 20:55 Phil0s0pher wrote:
We should not be discussing the meta-philosophical debates of feminism or what they stand for. That is not exactly for us to discuss. We should discuss how we can better accept female gamers into our community, into the greater gaming community. Gender Issues do not have a place in a forum on Starcraft and DotA, there is no need for them. You think there is no connection between the way that men treat women online and the way they treat them offline? In the first three pages this topic went through "boys will be boys", "she's overreacting", "she just wants attention" and "she was asking for abuse by being a woman who men are aware of". The immediate responses sexist men are giving here are entirely representative of the behavior of men generally which comes down to feminism and gender theory. The problems she is experiencing online are rooted in the same shit that leads to rape apologism. If you think you can view this in isolation then you just don't get it. No, I agree with you. I think you must have slightly misread me, I meant was that discussions on the specific meaning of the ideology of feminism don't actually help us in the situation we are trying to discuss. I added on by saying 'Gender Issues do not have a place in a forum on Starcraft', but because of the things you stated, they do, but because people enforce them by always using them Showing people that feminism is nothing to be afraid of is a big part of making women more comfortable in male-dominated online communities.
I think that showing people that the majority of us will stand up to dickhead behaviour when confronted with it, or when members of our community are confronted by it will do more then a discussion on the meta-philosophical basis of the ideology of feminism.
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On May 02 2013 21:07 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:03 Kreb wrote:On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote:
Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard.
The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan.
Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." While I somewhat agree with what you say, whats the difference between "feminism" and "equality" (between sexes) then? The word feminism is kinda missleading in that case, since it quite clearly indicates its about something related to..... females. Nothing. Feminism is the struggle for equality between the sexes, that is its actual definition. The two are interchangable, the reason it was called feminism was simply because females have historically been oppressed and disenfranchised. Show nested quote +
Just one question, isn't feminism the movement for the equality of the women while the movement for the equality (can't remember the name right now,maybe egalitarianism) should be for equality of all the people?
Again, basically the same. If males had been in the historical shoes of females, the situation would have been reversed. A struggle for equality necessitates a concerted effort to empower disenfranchised groups.
Yet some, or all, people would look very strangely at me if I uttered something along these lines:
"In the name of feminism I think men should have equal child custody rights as women".
Whatever the difinition is (who decides the definition anyway?), what you're describing is certainly not what people are using the word for.
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United States43293 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:14 stroggozz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 20:57 KwarK wrote:On May 02 2013 20:54 stroggozz wrote:
dam there is so much hate vs women on the internet.
if you arn't a feminist you are a bigot. This should be an uncontroversial fact. Or simply ignorant of feminism. I think an awful lot of people have no real clue about the issues. The fact that they deliberately wallow in their ignorance is also somewhat problematic. being ignorant of feminism, in my views makes you a bigot. I mean 2000 years ago women were a mans property. Does that make them sexist? Does it make them ignorant of feminism even though it would have taken genius to conceive of the type of rights women have now? Yes for both of them. They may not have been bigots by nature, but imposed bigotry is still bigotry. There is a good article i read a month or two back on aljazeera. Strip clubs have been eliminated in iceland, and the country is now ranked #1 in gender equality, up from #4. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/04/20134274739879996.html
I'm all for strip clubs. I'm a very sex positive feminist.
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On May 02 2013 21:07 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:03 Kreb wrote:On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote:
Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard.
The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan.
Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." While I somewhat agree with what you say, whats the difference between "feminism" and "equality" (between sexes) then? The word feminism is kinda missleading in that case, since it quite clearly indicates its about something related to..... females. Nothing. Feminism is the struggle for equality between the sexes, that is its actual definition. The two are interchangable, the reason it was called feminism was simply because females have historically been oppressed and disenfranchised.
That is not its actual definition, and feminism is not *the* struggle for equality between the sexes. The definition of feminism is more complicated than that (first of all it requires that you subscribe to patriarchy theory), and there are other struggles for equality between the sexes. See for example MRA. There is a huge difference between feminism (an ideology) and equality (which is the alleged goal of said ideology). To try to equalize feminism with either equality or "the" struggle for equality, is nothing but an attempt to silence differing opinions ("you think X so you must be a feminist, but you also said Y which is not feminist so you have to stop saying Y").
Furthermore, people can have different opinions about what equality truly means. Bob defines equality as when all men go to work and all women stay at home to cook and clean, but both these jobs are equally valued. You wouldn't call Bob a feminist, would you?
It's the same error as, say, labeling libertarianism as "the" struggle for freedom. Freedom is the goal of libertarianism, but it's not the only ideology that aims for freedom and different people have different ideas of what freedom really is.
So no. Stop telling lies about feminism. It does not do your movement any good anyway.
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On May 02 2013 21:15 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:07 McBengt wrote:On May 02 2013 21:03 Kreb wrote:On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote:
Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard.
The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan.
Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." While I somewhat agree with what you say, whats the difference between "feminism" and "equality" (between sexes) then? The word feminism is kinda missleading in that case, since it quite clearly indicates its about something related to..... females. Nothing. Feminism is the struggle for equality between the sexes, that is its actual definition. The two are interchangable, the reason it was called feminism was simply because females have historically been oppressed and disenfranchised.
Just one question, isn't feminism the movement for the equality of the women while the movement for the equality (can't remember the name right now,maybe egalitarianism) should be for equality of all the people?
Again, basically the same. If males had been in the historical shoes of females, the situation would have been reversed. A struggle for equality necessitates a concerted effort to empower disenfranchised groups. Yet some, or all, people would look very strangely at me if I uttered something along these lines: "In the name of feminism I think men should have equal child custody rights as women". Whatever the difinition is (who decides the definition anyway?), what you're describing is certainly not what people are using the word for.
Which was exactly the point. The word has mutated into some kind of strange colloquialism for women complaining about stuff.
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Zurich15355 Posts
On May 02 2013 21:15 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 21:07 McBengt wrote:On May 02 2013 21:03 Kreb wrote:On May 02 2013 20:51 McBengt wrote:
Feminism is one of the most misunderstood and vilified terms in modern politics. I know several people who would never call themselves feminists because the term is so loaded and toxic, but when you actually ask them about core feminist issues like equal pay, right to choose, anti-discrimination laws, protection from sexual harassment in the workplace/school etc, they are all aboard.
The challenge generally is not to make people agree with (most)feminist agendas, instead it's getting them to understand that fighting for them is what actually constitutes feminism in the first place. The women, and men, who fought for the right to vote, the right to control their own bodies, the right to participate in government and positions of power, they were all feminists by definition. Yet few people recognise or even comprehend this, they see it as an excuse for angry shrews to bitch and moan.
Whenever I'm asked about this I always say; "yes I am a feminist, and so are you, even if you don't know it." While I somewhat agree with what you say, whats the difference between "feminism" and "equality" (between sexes) then? The word feminism is kinda missleading in that case, since it quite clearly indicates its about something related to..... females. Nothing. Feminism is the struggle for equality between the sexes, that is its actual definition. The two are interchangable, the reason it was called feminism was simply because females have historically been oppressed and disenfranchised.
Just one question, isn't feminism the movement for the equality of the women while the movement for the equality (can't remember the name right now,maybe egalitarianism) should be for equality of all the people?
Again, basically the same. If males had been in the historical shoes of females, the situation would have been reversed. A struggle for equality necessitates a concerted effort to empower disenfranchised groups. Yet some, or all, people would look very strangely at me if I uttered something along these lines: "In the name of feminism I think men should have equal child custody rights as women". Whatever the difinition is (who decides the definition anyway?), what you're describing is certainly not what people are using the word for.
Nothing strange about this. Arguing for equal rights is exactly what feminism is about, and the majority of feminists today would support you on this.
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How is this person any different than any other person that gets trolled on the internet?
Because she is a woman she should be treated like a sensitive flower petal?
People like her are the REASON sexism is rampant on the internet.
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EPT
