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Shival
Netherlands643 Posts
On December 09 2013 06:08 sam!zdat wrote: you're right Mrs. Thatcher No need for that, I'm asking you for an example, since you so eloquently blame capitalism for something that is prevalent in every societal form. If you cannot give one, just say so instead of trying to be derogatory. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
rather than wasting time with inane cliches about human nature, why don't you put some effort into thinking about our problems and how we might go about solving them | ||
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Mstring
Australia510 Posts
On December 09 2013 05:25 sam!zdat wrote: my point is that it's a structural problem in the capitalist system and you can't ever regulate it away, there will always be financial crisis and shady dealings as long as there is capitalism. While this may very well be true, how does 'blame capitalism' help anyone to whom the thought is so far removed from their daily reality? Perhaps before we rid ourselves of money and property we first must rid ourselves of the parasites which have been chronically distorting property and money for thousands of years. The need for 'growth' is entrenched in everyone's brain, yet no one is talking about why things need to grow (except in circular arguments: X must grow because otherwise it can't compete with Y which is growing). Fiat isn't inherently inflationary. Creating money at will doesn't necessarily lead to inflation. The current method of creating and destroying money absolutely does however, and everyone just swallows it out of ignorance because it's been layered in a hundred miles of complexity, all of it band-aids for the root problem which is never addressed. Maybe 'capitalism' is indeed a deeper cause still, I just don't see how we get there without first cutting off the branches. Every cent in circulation today is part of the principal of an interest bearing 'loan'. The system essentially allows us the following bargain: "Allow me to access X amount of labour today and I'll labour X+Y down the line". Can anyone else see the problem? Who in their right mind would make such an insane and unsustainable promise? Who thinks there would be inflation/deflation in the following system? If the total currency in circulation was exactly equal to the total outstanding debt on property which was exactly equal to the market value of that represented property. 'Repayments' in this system would match the depreciation of property value, a laughibly small number compared to repayments today. Quality goods that last longer would be preferred because they would cost less present labour to 'repay'. Infact, on a theoretical item that never depreciates in value, there would be no 'repayments', a natural evolution to a non-monetary system. Compare this to the current system in which the circulation is perpetually diminished in relation to the total outstanding debt, forcing continual whatever-it-takes future-sacrificial promises in order to merely make ends meet in the present. The current system is a quintessential parasite, holding the host on the brink of death until the last day. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On December 09 2013 06:52 Mstring wrote: While this may very well be true, how does 'blame capitalism' help anyone to whom the thought is so far removed from their daily reality? to develop class consciousness and accomplish the move from the in-itself to the for-itself Perhaps before we rid ourselves of money and property we first must rid ourselves of the parasites which have been chronically distorting property and money for thousands of years. capitalism is not the same thing as "money and property," capitalism is about M-C-M' and the alienation of the worker from the means of production the problem is how to find a non-expansionary economic order. i'm open to suggestions. things people like to say that are utterly useless are 1) capitalism is human nature 2) communism didn't work so therefore TINA edit: oh and here's something far more exciting than any bitcoin bullshit http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec13/berkshares2_12-08.html | ||
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Mstring
Australia510 Posts
On December 09 2013 06:56 sam!zdat wrote: the problem is how to find a non-expansionary economic order. i'm open to suggestions. I don't know what you mean by "non-expansionary" but if you want a suggestion, read the second last paragraph of my previous post. | ||
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0x64
Finland4553 Posts
Shival, what I don't understand is that by buying bitcoin, you are actually trading savings (money not invested) with someone. Therefor your money will be invested by that person somewhere else. If we take the most extrem case that one person owns all the bitcoins, and that it becomes valueless, then all the money he used is in the real economy. If people are not investing in the bitcoin, then there is no liquidity for those who needs it to make purchases or transfers. What would stop the bitcoin to behave like gold or better. I don't think anyone would replace the cash with the BTC... | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:02 Mstring wrote: I don't know what you mean by "non-expansionary" but if you want a suggestion, read the second last paragraph of my previous post. no, that doesn't help. there's no monetary solution to the problem, that's just getting lost in the fetish. the problem is that the system demands infinite growth in a world with finite resources, because of the nature of the M-C-M' circuit. In order to get the creditor classes to invest their money, you have to promise them more money at the end of a turnover cycle. what we need instead is a system in which 0 GDP growth is the goal, but what that social order can possibly look like is a tricky question On December 09 2013 07:09 0x64 wrote: Woooow slow down guys... This is derailing. dreadfully sorry to be talking about something other than what YOU want to talk about | ||
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Mstring
Australia510 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:09 sam!zdat wrote: no, that doesn't help. there's no monetary solution to the problem, that's just getting lost in the fetish. What I said is nothing about "getting lost in the fetish" and is completely about removing the fraudulent lies from the fetish in order to see what truth is left over. On December 09 2013 07:09 sam!zdat wrote: the problem is that the system demands infinite growth in a world with finite resources, because of the nature of the M-C-M' circuit. In order to get the creditor classes to invest their money, you have to promise them more money at the end of a turnover cycle. what we need instead is a system in which 0 GDP growth is the goal, but what that social order can possibly look like is a tricky question In a system without inflation, there is no need for anyone to invest anything anywhere except their wallet. The current system rewards consumption of ever crappier products. The system I proposed does the opposite-- it rewards high quality, long lasting goods, with the highest reward for goods that last forever-- the exact opposite of demand for infinite resources. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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0x64
Finland4553 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:09 sam!zdat wrote: no, that doesn't help. there's no monetary solution to the problem, that's just getting lost in the fetish. the problem is that the system demands infinite growth in a world with finite resources, because of the nature of the M-C-M' circuit. In order to get the creditor classes to invest their money, you have to promise them more money at the end of a turnover cycle. what we need instead is a system in which 0 GDP growth is the goal, but what that social order can possibly look like is a tricky question dreadfully sorry to be talking about something other than what YOU want to talk about I just don't see how that is remotely relevant to this thread, you are raging... Take a long breath and try to chill! | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
don't try to pretend that this whole bitcoin farce doesn't have everything to do with the crisis of the late capitalist system at large | ||
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Shival
Netherlands643 Posts
On December 09 2013 06:45 sam!zdat wrote: financial crises are not prevalent in every social form, don't be thick. i'm not talking about all the sins of the human race here rather than wasting time with inane cliches about human nature, why don't you put some effort into thinking about our problems and how we might go about solving them Financial crisis is prevalent in every social form so far tried and likely in every probable social theory so far proposed. Again, name me one probable societal form where financial crisis is not possible. Who are you to tell me what to do? As if you've even got an inkling of what I do on a daily basis. Besides, I think I've shown a much more rational line of thought than mere dreaming without substance and blaming on everything that's the norm. In essence, cut the attacks on my person and discuss the subject itself with arguments please. On December 09 2013 06:56 sam!zdat wrote: to develop class consciousness and accomplish the move from the in-itself to the for-itself capitalism is not the same thing as "money and property," capitalism is about M-C-M' and the alienation of the worker from the means of production the problem is how to find a non-expansionary economic order. i'm open to suggestions. things people like to say that are utterly useless are 1) capitalism is human nature 2) communism didn't work so therefore TINA edit: oh and here's something far more exciting than any bitcoin bullshit http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec13/berkshares2_12-08.html Way to misinterpret my comments. Capitalism is far from human nature, it's human nature itself that causes the problems in capitalism, as in any societal form. I said none of the probable societal forms are a solution, not solely communism. Instead of merely rehashing the same blaming rubbish, come up with a logical thought that may in fact be a better working society. Besides, I'm not particularly looking for a major change in society, so in my opinion I'm not stating something useless if I were to say; capitalism is human nature. It's you who wants a major change, so you should have a thought as to where we should go and how. | ||
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Mstring
Australia510 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:23 sam!zdat wrote: so how do the capitalists make money if they sell things that people buy once I'm not sure I understand the question, so I'll just ramble on a bit and hope something sticks. You would obtain money in two ways, just like the current system. You'd labour to earn money already in circulation, or you'd create new money against new property, just like the current system. The only difference is that there isn't a parasite middleman sucking you dry through a fraudulent system, causing you to be pushed to your human limits to sustain your existence. When money is sold as a commodity that you must 'borrow' at interest, of course you're going to borrow the least you possibly can, ever driving the market of ever shittier goods and services, and ever shittier means of producing them. In a system where the creation of money isn't obfuscated by a fraudulent pack of liars, people who make the highest quality and longest lasting goods would be rewarded. New money would be created against the property, exactly as it is today, except only paid down (money destroyed) at the rate of depreciation. A super high quality good depreciates very slowly thus earning the producer a great deal of currency and costs the consumer very little to upkeep. I don't know the end-game of such a system and neither do you. It's obviously completely different to the current system (which is an honest labour-trade promise system hijacked with lies) that Satan himself would be proud of. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:50 Shival wrote: Financial crisis is prevalent in every social form so far tried and likely in every probable social theory so far proposed. haha ok mr anthropologist how about before they invented financial instruments? lots of financial crises in those societies I bet but yeah you're right this conversation will likely not go anywhere. I'm sure whatever you do on a daily basis is very important and helpful for humanity On December 09 2013 07:52 Mstring wrote: A super high quality good depreciates very slowly thus earning the producer a great deal of currency and costs the consumer very little to upkeep. but then the producers go out of business because everybody already has their thing | ||
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Shival
Netherlands643 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:54 sam!zdat wrote: haha ok mr anthropologist how about before they invented financial instruments? lots of financial crises in those societies I bet but yeah you're right this conversation will likely not go anywhere. I'm sure whatever you do on a daily basis is very important and helpful for humanity Trade has always happened... and even if there were no trade in those societies, you think we can go back to that? That's a laughable suggestion. Agreed, this will go nowhere fast, and I suppose I'll take that comment as a compliment for what I actually do. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:57 Shival wrote: Trade has always happened... and even if there were no trade in those societies, you think we can go back to that? That's a laughable suggestion. it's not a suggestion. I'm just saying that when you say "there have always been financial crises in every society" you are being stupid in a very obvious way | ||
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Mstring
Australia510 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:54 sam!zdat wrote: but then the producers go out of business because everybody already has their thing Instead of producing 1000 shitty chairs per day, they might produce a single high quality chair. You're right, they would eventually go out of business. That's what you want, right? Once everyone has their chair, we stop consuming resources to make new chairs. | ||
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Shival
Netherlands643 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:58 sam!zdat wrote: it's not a suggestion. I'm just saying that when you say "there have always been financial crises in every society" you are being stupid in a very obvious way I'm not, suggesting it isn't the case is stupid. Financial crisis (at whatever level and impact) happens whenever you have a society that's active in trade. Which may only exclude stone age civilization, but I believe even those had trade. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On December 09 2013 08:04 Shival wrote: I'm not, suggesting it isn't the case is stupid. Financial crisis (at whatever level and impact) happens whenever you have a society that's active in trade. Which may only exclude stone age civilization, but I believe even those had trade. i would love to see some literature on this if you weren't just talking out of your ass. trade and financial crises are very different things. even the sorts of debasement problems that the roman empire ran into, or the class imbalances that led to periodic necessity of land reform or debt jubilee, e.g., are very different beasts than a financial crisis of the sort we are concerned with here. I know you want to believe that everything is always the same and nothing ever changes and so therefore we don't have to worry about trying to solve problems | ||
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Shival
Netherlands643 Posts
On December 09 2013 07:09 0x64 wrote: Woooow slow down guys... This is derailing. Shival, what I don't understand is that by buying bitcoin, you are actually trading savings (money not invested) with someone. Therefor your money will be invested by that person somewhere else. If we take the most extrem case that one person owns all the bitcoins, and that it becomes valueless, then all the money he used is in the real economy. If people are not investing in the bitcoin, then there is no liquidity for those who needs it to make purchases or transfers. What would stop the bitcoin to behave like gold or better. I don't think anyone would replace the cash with the BTC... Anyway, to try and get the topic a bit more back on track. You're assuming the only money that goes into the system are savings, but whenever you can invest in something that can make your Peugeot 207 into a Porsche in a month, would you spend the money now, or wait a month? Exactly. Thus, it's not only savings that are being spend into bitcoin, there's even huge loans already put into bitcoin, hoping to gain alot quickly. Near to nothing will replace current valuta, BTC least of all, and yet it is hyped to be. If you take that possibility away, what exactly are you investing in? | ||
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