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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 08 2013 19:35 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 19:30 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2013 19:27 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:23 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2013 19:21 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:12 adwodon wrote:
The reason is fairly straight forward, it is a reasonable assumption that most people might not comfortable with it. You might not like this assumption or feel it is wrong in some way but this is how society generally feels about these things. i'm asking you to explain why there is a responsibility to disclose something just because "people might not be comfortable." i can claim to be uncomfortable with almost anything. everyone is different and everyone is comfortable and uncomfortable with different things based on their unique personality. since i can't predict the full extent of anyone's personality, how can i be expected to cater to all of their requisites for who is acceptable to sleep with? perhaps most importantly of all, why must the consideration be first for the person uncomfortable with sleeping with a transexual and not with the fact that a transexual may not be comfortable with disclosing it? Did you read what Kwark had to say about numbers? You can claim to be uncomfortable with anything, but is your discomfort shared by many, many other people? it doesn't matter because the point is that discomfort does not entitle you to information. the right to privacy about your history supersedes the "right" to information about a person you put your penis into. moreover, "many people agree" is an absolutely godawful argument in favor of anything concerning morality Sure, but the path you're doing down is that you're witholding information, information which has a high likelihood of making the person not want to sleep with you. You're ok with that deception? to me the word "deception" implies that you have a moral need to know the information in the first place. not telling people things they don't have a right to know doesn't fit my definition of "deception". if you're talking about a friendship or a relationship where people have mutual trust and expect each other to share information, that starts to get a little muddy and it would depend on the specific relationship. but as far as i know we're only talking about sex and the "right to know who you're having sex with," which is not a right i recognize if you categorize it as "deception," then yes, i'm absolutely okay with that deception
I mean simply enough, you have this piece of knowledge that has a high chance of affecting the possibilities that someone will sleep with you, and you choose to withold it in order to prevent the other person making that decision.
The rights and wrongs are pretty murky and it's clear what side you come down on, but you should be able to see the other side too here.
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this isn't meant to be provocative or troll, but do those of you in favor of trans disclosure also think that if you're mixed race but appear white, you have an obligation to disclose your ancestry to someone you know is racist out of respect for their comfort?
if the answer is no, i'm still stuck on the question of why agreeing to put your penis inside someone entitles you to know anything about their genitals other than "are they clean and safe"
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If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them.
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On August 08 2013 19:42 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 19:35 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:30 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2013 19:27 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:23 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2013 19:21 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:12 adwodon wrote:
The reason is fairly straight forward, it is a reasonable assumption that most people might not comfortable with it. You might not like this assumption or feel it is wrong in some way but this is how society generally feels about these things. i'm asking you to explain why there is a responsibility to disclose something just because "people might not be comfortable." i can claim to be uncomfortable with almost anything. everyone is different and everyone is comfortable and uncomfortable with different things based on their unique personality. since i can't predict the full extent of anyone's personality, how can i be expected to cater to all of their requisites for who is acceptable to sleep with? perhaps most importantly of all, why must the consideration be first for the person uncomfortable with sleeping with a transexual and not with the fact that a transexual may not be comfortable with disclosing it? Did you read what Kwark had to say about numbers? You can claim to be uncomfortable with anything, but is your discomfort shared by many, many other people? it doesn't matter because the point is that discomfort does not entitle you to information. the right to privacy about your history supersedes the "right" to information about a person you put your penis into. moreover, "many people agree" is an absolutely godawful argument in favor of anything concerning morality Sure, but the path you're doing down is that you're witholding information, information which has a high likelihood of making the person not want to sleep with you. You're ok with that deception? to me the word "deception" implies that you have a moral need to know the information in the first place. not telling people things they don't have a right to know doesn't fit my definition of "deception". if you're talking about a friendship or a relationship where people have mutual trust and expect each other to share information, that starts to get a little muddy and it would depend on the specific relationship. but as far as i know we're only talking about sex and the "right to know who you're having sex with," which is not a right i recognize if you categorize it as "deception," then yes, i'm absolutely okay with that deception I mean simply enough, you have this piece of knowledge that has a high chance of affecting the possibilities that someone will sleep with you, and you choose to withold it in order to prevent the other person making that decision. The rights and wrongs are pretty murky and it's clear what side you come down on, but you should be able to see the other side too here.
i see the other side so far as i understand the issue people are raising when they advocate disclosure, but in my mind it's still clear as day that transexuals do not deserve to be morally judged or scorned for not disclosing
i try to see both sides of every issue, but i don't think that has to involve softening my conviction on them
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 08 2013 19:44 Waise wrote:
this isn't meant to be provocative or troll, but do those of you in favor of trans disclosure also think that if you're mixed race but appear white, you have an obligation to disclose your ancestry to someone you know is racist out of respect for their comfort?
if the answer is no, i'm still stuck on the question of why agreeing to put your penis inside someone entitles you to know anything about their genitals other than "are they clean and safe"
Again, numbers. Do a large number of people fundamentally have a problem with sleeping with a mixed race person? You could open that question to the thread, and I reckon all the people who said they felt uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping with a trans person would say they weren't uncomfortable with this.
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On August 08 2013 11:50 RaspberrySC2 wrote:
The basis of Kwark's consent argument is that it is a "reasonable assumption" that most people would not be ok having sex with a trans person,
I do not agree that this is a reasonable assumption on the basis that it is not my experience and that the invocation of "reasonable assumption" has the same flaws as the invocation of "common sense" in that it is highly subjective.
The demand is that I accept a different experience that is not my own as my basis of "reasonable assumption."
That is not reasonable.
I can agree with this. My personal stance is not quite as "strict" as Kwark's. While I do believe a similar assumption is correct (that majority of the population wouldn't want to have sex with a trans person, even if I believe their reasons are silly) if you truly don't believe that to be the case, that's fine.
I think you should disclose things if you believe majority of the population would have a problem with that thing and that it's a big deal to a lot of people, provided you care for your partner and want to be moral. How do you determine that? Who knows, it's extremely subjective.
I may watch a lot of porn and while some people might find the details disgusting, it's an expected thing and while it may reduce the attraction, it probably wouldn't make it so a person suddenly doesn't want to bump uglies anymore.
A good example is being married. I think most people have a pretty clear idea that most people would like to know that their partner is married as it is likely to be a dealbreaker for them, therefore one should disclose their status. If you somehow convinced yourself that it's not a big deal and you are truly being honest with yourself, that's fine.
However, willfull ignorance or pretense in the form of "but it's not that big of a deal, right?" while actually believing it's not the case is just lying to yourself.
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On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them.
even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?)
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?)
This argument is circular.
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On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?)
If you're getting yourself involved with someone who would react in such a way, maybe that's the problem?
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United States60190 Posts
Its similar to lying about your age to sleep with someone younger than you. I have a baby face and can pass for a 24 year old, even though I am 33. If I went to a party with one of my grad student friends, age 22, where every other person there was age 20-24, it would be super creepy for me to try to sleep with someone giving them the impression that I was a student. I can argue no one is harmed and I am not responsible for their assumptions, but that doesn't make it less rapey.
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On August 08 2013 20:02 mcmartini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?) If you're getting yourself involved with someone who would react in such a way, maybe that's the problem?
so essentially the "if you don't want to get raped don't walk down a dark alley" argument?
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On August 08 2013 20:10 Plansix wrote:
Its similar to lying about your age to sleep with someone younger than you. I have a baby face and can pass for a 24 year old, even though I am 33. If I went to a party with one of my grad student friends, age 22, where every other person there was age 20-24, it would be super creepy for me to try to sleep with someone giving them the impression that I was a student. I can argue no one is harmed and I am not responsible for their assumptions, but that doesn't make it less rapey.
what the fuck? if you're of age and the girl is of age, lying about your age is not "rapey". it's a douche move, but it's not even in the same stratosphere as rape, and comparing it to rape trivializes actual rape. ill say it again: you do NOT get to know everything about a person before having consensual sex with them. it's your responsibility to make a character judgment and put your trust in them
more importantly, lying to make someone willing to fuck you is not comparable to situation where two people want to have sex and one of them feels no need to share specific information about their biological history which is not the other person's privilege to know.
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On August 08 2013 20:41 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 20:02 mcmartini wrote:On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?) If you're getting yourself involved with someone who would react in such a way, maybe that's the problem? so essentially the "if you don't want to get raped don't walk down a dark alley" argument?
As long as you agree your argument is essentially comes down to "lie to get what you want, fuck anyone who might get hurt as long as I profit?" No?
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On August 08 2013 19:48 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?) This argument is circular.
that's the point. saying "knowng they fucked a transexual would make the person uncomfortable" is no more compelling than me saying that sharing the truth would make the trans person uncomfortable.both people have a legitimate, subjective claim to their own discomfort. however, one person's motive is fear of emotional abuse and trauma, whereas the other person's motive "eww, a he-she". do you really not sympathize with my reason for siding with the trans person?
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On August 08 2013 20:54 mcmartini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 20:41 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 20:02 mcmartini wrote:On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?) If you're getting yourself involved with someone who would react in such a way, maybe that's the problem? so essentially the "if you don't want to get raped don't walk down a dark alley" argument? As long as you agree your argument is essentially comes down to "lie to get what you want, fuck anyone who might get hurt as long as I profit?" No?
jesus christ, what's wrong with you? by your logic, i am lying to you up until right now because i haven't told you that i've been in therapy for depression. how is "not telling people things they aren't entitled for any reason to know" considered lying?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 08 2013 20:56 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 19:48 marvellosity wrote:On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?) This argument is circular. that's the point. saying "knowng they fucked a transexual would make the person uncomfortable" is no more compelling than me saying that sharing the truth would make the trans person uncomfortable.both people have a legitimate, subjective claim to their own discomfort. however, one person's motive is fear of emotional abuse and trauma, whereas the other person's motive "eww, a he-she". do you really not sympathize with my reason for siding with the trans person?
Yes, I sympathise, doesn't necessarily mean I agree though. One is telling the truth, one is witholding it, for a start.
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On August 08 2013 20:58 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 20:54 mcmartini wrote:On August 08 2013 20:41 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 20:02 mcmartini wrote:On August 08 2013 19:47 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 19:44 mcmartini wrote:
If you believe that the information you're withholding would change someones mind....you should probably tell them. even if you're putting yourself at risk for emotional trauma if and when the person finds out and rejects you (and possibly also ridicules, mocks or even assaults you?) If you're getting yourself involved with someone who would react in such a way, maybe that's the problem? so essentially the "if you don't want to get raped don't walk down a dark alley" argument? As long as you agree your argument is essentially comes down to "lie to get what you want, fuck anyone who might get hurt as long as I profit?" No? jesus christ, what's wrong with you? by your logic, i am lying to you up until right now because i haven't told you that i've been in therapy for depression. how is "not telling people things they aren't entitled for any reason to know" considered lying?
My logic was that if something would change the persons mind in relation to sex you should probably tell them. You having been to therapy for depression is no more apart of that statement then the fact that I too have been to therapy for depression. We are not planning on having sex. You are not deceiving me to have sex with me. Please don't resort to attacks on me because my morals are different to yours.
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Gosh this thread is still on the same topic. The "rights" of trans persons to sleep with people who do not want to sleep with trans. Funnily enough the last thread was filled with discussion about how traps were mythical and never happen. Yet in this thread evidently most trans people here are all about trapping, because its their right to have sex with anyone even if that person doesn't want to sleep with transsexuals. Of course the other person doesn't matter because fuck those guys the life of a trans is so hard and sad so the trans person should get a free pass. Disgusting.
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I would be really pissed off if I found out a girl I just slept with was a biological male. Most guys would feel the same way. Wether or not I am entiteled to be pissed is beside the point; the girl knew I would be pissed ( or she would tell me ) and did it anyway. The rationale being that her need for sex outweighs my need to not have sex with men, a need I dont have to defend to anyone.
It's selfish and wrong.
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On August 08 2013 21:08 heliusx wrote:
Gosh this thread is still on the same topic. The "rights" of trans persons to sleep with people who do not want to sleep with trans. Funnily enough the last thread was filled with discussion about how traps were mythical and never happen. Yet in this thread evidently most trans people here are all about trapping, because its their right to have sex with anyone even if that person doesn't want to sleep with transsexuals. Of course the other person doesn't matter because fuck those guys the life of a trans is so hard and sad so the trans person should get a free pass. Disgusting.
The majority of trans people in this thread have said that they'd disclose, but that they do not feel a moral obligation and wouldn't force another trans person to disclose. And, yea, some of the trans people here have said some pretty insensitive things about other people's feelings / consent. But I don't think the general sentiment is that transsexuals feel entitled to sleep with anyone - but rather, that we shouldn't have to make the assumption that nobody would ever want to sleep with us when engaging in potential sexual encounters.
I can't speak for everyone, but I think the majority of trans people in this thread have stated that they would disclose if they *knew* the other person had a problem with it. The problem they have is assuming the other person has a problem with it.
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EPT
