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On August 21 2015 17:31 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 16:46 ETisME wrote:
The general consent from the China public is that if north Korea get involved in war, China must help them.
It is still a buffer zone for China and until China can have bigger influence on Asia, they won't let north Korea to go down. Of south Korea wins and it will put even more ideological pressure onto China (surrounded by pro western country)
Of cause it might be an old model but I believe when the government is trying to convey this image, it is safe to assume this is what they think as well. That's not what my understanding of the Chinese people's belief. It seems that in the case of a war, China would probably order the army in to take over instead of help...
I have a lot of Chinese friends and at least in the mean time I don't see it happening, there is no resource, lots of mouth to feed with a vastly different culture etc
The whole China Military thing is about "protecting" their "rightful" territory so I don't think the citizens will support it all that much (although the gov doesn't need the people support)
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On August 21 2015 16:31 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 16:28 Shiragaku wrote:On August 21 2015 16:17 whatisthisasheep wrote:
The scary thing is Dennis Rodman could probly get NK to back off. He knows them better than any world leader. What is truly depressing about this thread is that North Korea does something and suddenly everyone is an expert on North Korea. This isn't really any different from any possible topic though isn't it? 
At least in the other megathreads of common political discussions, people seem to be able able to realize that the people they are talking about are humans. When the discussion shifts to North Korea, you might as well make the discussion about Martians or a land where necromancers control zombies plotting evil things because that is what pops up
The reason why such conversations are infuriating is not just the intellectual laziness and the lack of opposition because LOL NORTH KOREA IS SO CRAY CRAY but because such a mindset is incredibly problematic in understanding and empathizing with what North Korea is whether it is the peasant or official in Pyongyang
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China is only defending N. Korea as a buffer against S. Korea and the U.S.
This has been stated many, many times but N. Korea would be amazingly stupid if they believe they have a ghost of a chance in an all out war against S. Korea. Then again, it's N. Korea and they been just dumb the past several years so who the heck knows anymore.
This isn't the 50s anymore, S. Korea is way ahead in every possible way. They have internet that would make everyone in the U.S. blush. N. Korean is nothing but words and threats they never carry out.
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Zurich15355 Posts
Shiragaku, I don't disagree. But I think in the case of NK the general ignorance is at least somewhat excusable. Until very recently true insight into NK was extremely sparse. Even compared to just 2010 we have only now a much much clearer picture of how NK society functions, not to speak of compared to say 10-15 years ago.
And then there is still areas where no one outside of NK, not even the majority of elites inside NK have any real idea about. Heck, we can't even know for sure who really runs the country. We can at best guess at the power balance between OGD and the Kim family, but even then we don't know if the OGD in turn is controlled by any singular block of power, if power is distributed, or if it more or less headless.
It's telling that to this day it is still unknown what caused Jaek Song Thaek's downfall, who orchestrated it, and who benefited from it.
With real insight into NK society being a very new feature, and no true insight into the leadership (including who that leadership even is) it's understandable that regular media, and by extension the general forum poster, is mostly ignorant about NK.
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N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China.
My friend i believe it was a mutual decision between US and Soviet Union to split the country as both had different views on how to run Korea. Soviet wanted a communist run country and America wanted the latter. So they physically split the country themselves so they had half each, a soviet communist run north Korea and they gave the power to a war hero whose name i forget and the South went the way of democracy.
You cannot blame America for splitting them up that is un fair, if anything you can blame the Soviet's for making the North a communist run state.
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On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China.
Couldn't agree more. South Korea is a buffer for American power projection that it simply cannot maintain with 10x the carrier fleet of any other naval power. Japan is like totally meaningless too, so the US has virtually zero power or influence is SE Asia without a presence in South Korea. Don't even get me started on the Philippines or Taiwan. It's totally practical that a united Korea would go a different path and align with China's regional hegemonic ambitions.
These noob victims of domestic propaganda. Everyone knows the state-owned American media shoves that shit down their throats. Thank god places like China and North Korea aren't exactly like that.
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On August 21 2015 17:46 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:31 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 16:46 ETisME wrote:
The general consent from the China public is that if north Korea get involved in war, China must help them.
It is still a buffer zone for China and until China can have bigger influence on Asia, they won't let north Korea to go down. Of south Korea wins and it will put even more ideological pressure onto China (surrounded by pro western country)
Of cause it might be an old model but I believe when the government is trying to convey this image, it is safe to assume this is what they think as well. That's not what my understanding of the Chinese people's belief. It seems that in the case of a war, China would probably order the army in to take over instead of help... I have a lot of Chinese friends and at least in the mean time I don't see it happening, there is no resource, lots of mouth to feed with a vastly different culture etc The whole China Military thing is about "protecting" their "rightful" territory so I don't think the citizens will support it all that much (although the gov doesn't need the people support)
Well yeah, a lot of people just don't give a shit about north korea.
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On August 21 2015 22:07 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 17:46 ETisME wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 16:46 ETisME wrote:
The general consent from the China public is that if north Korea get involved in war, China must help them.
It is still a buffer zone for China and until China can have bigger influence on Asia, they won't let north Korea to go down. Of south Korea wins and it will put even more ideological pressure onto China (surrounded by pro western country)
Of cause it might be an old model but I believe when the government is trying to convey this image, it is safe to assume this is what they think as well. That's not what my understanding of the Chinese people's belief. It seems that in the case of a war, China would probably order the army in to take over instead of help... I have a lot of Chinese friends and at least in the mean time I don't see it happening, there is no resource, lots of mouth to feed with a vastly different culture etc The whole China Military thing is about "protecting" their "rightful" territory so I don't think the citizens will support it all that much (although the gov doesn't need the people support) Well yeah, a lot of people just don't give a shit about north korea.
A lot of people do, but are very limited in the ways they can help the people in that country. No one has the political will to over throw that government and then invest the next 10-15 years in rebuilding that country.
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On August 21 2015 21:46 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China. My friend i believe it was a mutual decision between US and Soviet Union to split the country as both had different views on how to run Korea. Soviet wanted a communist run country and America wanted the latter. So they physically split the country themselves so they had half each, a soviet communist run north Korea and they gave the power to a war hero whose name i forget and the South went the way of democracy. You cannot blame America for splitting them up that is un fair, if anything you can blame the Soviet's for making the North a communist run state.
I don't think it was a mutual decision, rather it was more of a land-grab that happened to leave both sides with about half of Korea. Neither side was happy, so they fought the Korean War, which ended inconclusively and they ended up with half each at the end.
On August 21 2015 22:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:07 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 17:46 ETisME wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 16:46 ETisME wrote:
The general consent from the China public is that if north Korea get involved in war, China must help them.
It is still a buffer zone for China and until China can have bigger influence on Asia, they won't let north Korea to go down. Of south Korea wins and it will put even more ideological pressure onto China (surrounded by pro western country)
Of cause it might be an old model but I believe when the government is trying to convey this image, it is safe to assume this is what they think as well. That's not what my understanding of the Chinese people's belief. It seems that in the case of a war, China would probably order the army in to take over instead of help... I have a lot of Chinese friends and at least in the mean time I don't see it happening, there is no resource, lots of mouth to feed with a vastly different culture etc The whole China Military thing is about "protecting" their "rightful" territory so I don't think the citizens will support it all that much (although the gov doesn't need the people support) Well yeah, a lot of people just don't give a shit about north korea. A lot of people do, but are very limited in the ways they can help the people in that country. No one has the political will to over throw that government and then invest the next 10-15 years in rebuilding that country.
Or, in other words, they don't give enough shits to do anything.
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On August 21 2015 22:11 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 21:46 Pandemona wrote:On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China. My friend i believe it was a mutual decision between US and Soviet Union to split the country as both had different views on how to run Korea. Soviet wanted a communist run country and America wanted the latter. So they physically split the country themselves so they had half each, a soviet communist run north Korea and they gave the power to a war hero whose name i forget and the South went the way of democracy. You cannot blame America for splitting them up that is un fair, if anything you can blame the Soviet's for making the North a communist run state. I don't think it was a mutual decision, rather it was more of a land-grab that happened to leave both sides with about half of Korea. Neither side was happy, so they fought the Korean War, which ended inconclusively and they ended up with half each at the end. Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:10 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2015 22:07 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 17:46 ETisME wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 16:46 ETisME wrote:
The general consent from the China public is that if north Korea get involved in war, China must help them.
It is still a buffer zone for China and until China can have bigger influence on Asia, they won't let north Korea to go down. Of south Korea wins and it will put even more ideological pressure onto China (surrounded by pro western country)
Of cause it might be an old model but I believe when the government is trying to convey this image, it is safe to assume this is what they think as well. That's not what my understanding of the Chinese people's belief. It seems that in the case of a war, China would probably order the army in to take over instead of help... I have a lot of Chinese friends and at least in the mean time I don't see it happening, there is no resource, lots of mouth to feed with a vastly different culture etc The whole China Military thing is about "protecting" their "rightful" territory so I don't think the citizens will support it all that much (although the gov doesn't need the people support) Well yeah, a lot of people just don't give a shit about north korea. A lot of people do, but are very limited in the ways they can help the people in that country. No one has the political will to over throw that government and then invest the next 10-15 years in rebuilding that country. Or, in other words, they don't give enough shits to do anything.
Not enough to go to war and deal with 15 years of economic and cultural problems, no. I don't think that makes people terrible. And also that country has nukes.
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On August 21 2015 22:05 always_winter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China. Couldn't agree more. South Korea is a buffer for American power projection that it simply cannot maintain with 10x the carrier fleet of any other naval power. Japan is like totally meaningless too, so the US has virtually zero power or influence is SE Asia without a presence in South Korea. Don't even get me started on the Philippines or Taiwan. It's totally practical that a united Korea would go a different path and align with China's regional hegemonic ambitions. These noob victims of domestic propaganda. Everyone knows the state-owned American media shoves that shit down their throats. Thank god places like China and North Korea aren't exactly like that.
Is this a troll post? If so, maybe a warning?
I got tons of warning for way way way less.
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On August 21 2015 22:35 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:05 always_winter wrote:On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China. Couldn't agree more. South Korea is a buffer for American power projection that it simply cannot maintain with 10x the carrier fleet of any other naval power. Japan is like totally meaningless too, so the US has virtually zero power or influence is SE Asia without a presence in South Korea. Don't even get me started on the Philippines or Taiwan. It's totally practical that a united Korea would go a different path and align with China's regional hegemonic ambitions. These noob victims of domestic propaganda. Everyone knows the state-owned American media shoves that shit down their throats. Thank god places like China and North Korea aren't exactly like that. Is this a troll post? If so, maybe a warning? I got tons of warning for way way way less.
Sarcasm is hard on the Internet.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On August 21 2015 22:11 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 21:46 Pandemona wrote:On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China. My friend i believe it was a mutual decision between US and Soviet Union to split the country as both had different views on how to run Korea. Soviet wanted a communist run country and America wanted the latter. So they physically split the country themselves so they had half each, a soviet communist run north Korea and they gave the power to a war hero whose name i forget and the South went the way of democracy. You cannot blame America for splitting them up that is un fair, if anything you can blame the Soviet's for making the North a communist run state. I don't think it was a mutual decision, rather it was more of a land-grab that happened to leave both sides with about half of Korea. Neither side was happy, so they fought the Korean War, which ended inconclusively and they ended up with half each at the end. Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:10 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2015 22:07 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 17:46 ETisME wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 16:46 ETisME wrote:
The general consent from the China public is that if north Korea get involved in war, China must help them.
It is still a buffer zone for China and until China can have bigger influence on Asia, they won't let north Korea to go down. Of south Korea wins and it will put even more ideological pressure onto China (surrounded by pro western country)
Of cause it might be an old model but I believe when the government is trying to convey this image, it is safe to assume this is what they think as well. That's not what my understanding of the Chinese people's belief. It seems that in the case of a war, China would probably order the army in to take over instead of help... I have a lot of Chinese friends and at least in the mean time I don't see it happening, there is no resource, lots of mouth to feed with a vastly different culture etc The whole China Military thing is about "protecting" their "rightful" territory so I don't think the citizens will support it all that much (although the gov doesn't need the people support) Well yeah, a lot of people just don't give a shit about north korea. A lot of people do, but are very limited in the ways they can help the people in that country. No one has the political will to over throw that government and then invest the next 10-15 years in rebuilding that country. Or, in other words, they don't give enough shits to do anything.
The war came after 5 years of leadership from Kim Il-Sung when he mobilized an army and together with China and the Soviet Union invaded the south. Then the UN got involved and all hell broke loose. Now whether it was Kim II-Sung motivated the war or whether the Soviet/China push was the reason for it that is above my knowledge. But the facts that are written is he initiated the war with the help of Russia and China.
The land grabbing was the Soviet Union and America wanted the land, they agreed to draw an imaginary line and take half each. Soviet ran the north as a Communist and the South went Democratic via the US. 5 Years later...history unfolds.
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On August 21 2015 22:38 Plansix wrote:
Sarcasm is hard on the Internet.
Especially non-witty sarcasm.
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On August 21 2015 22:47 Alcathous wrote:Especially non-witty sarcasm.
Deadpan sarcasm is my main export. If you question if I'm being sarcastic, I've accomplished my goal.
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On August 21 2015 22:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:11 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 21:46 Pandemona wrote:On August 21 2015 19:46 Alcathous wrote:
N Korea isn't really a buffer zone for China.
It's more that South Korea is a buffer zone for the US. If way back Korea had been united, it would have been too likely to align with China. So the US split up the Koreas and even today, they suppress or disallow peace efforts from S Korea.
Saying N Korea is a buffer zone for China vs the US is backwards and shows you are a victim of domestic propaganda. The US doesn't even have any territory anywhere close. At least for N Korea, they share their biggest border with China. My friend i believe it was a mutual decision between US and Soviet Union to split the country as both had different views on how to run Korea. Soviet wanted a communist run country and America wanted the latter. So they physically split the country themselves so they had half each, a soviet communist run north Korea and they gave the power to a war hero whose name i forget and the South went the way of democracy. You cannot blame America for splitting them up that is un fair, if anything you can blame the Soviet's for making the North a communist run state. I don't think it was a mutual decision, rather it was more of a land-grab that happened to leave both sides with about half of Korea. Neither side was happy, so they fought the Korean War, which ended inconclusively and they ended up with half each at the end. On August 21 2015 22:10 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2015 22:07 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 17:46 ETisME wrote:On August 21 2015 17:31 gobbledydook wrote:On August 21 2015 16:46 ETisME wrote:
The general consent from the China public is that if north Korea get involved in war, China must help them.
It is still a buffer zone for China and until China can have bigger influence on Asia, they won't let north Korea to go down. Of south Korea wins and it will put even more ideological pressure onto China (surrounded by pro western country)
Of cause it might be an old model but I believe when the government is trying to convey this image, it is safe to assume this is what they think as well. That's not what my understanding of the Chinese people's belief. It seems that in the case of a war, China would probably order the army in to take over instead of help... I have a lot of Chinese friends and at least in the mean time I don't see it happening, there is no resource, lots of mouth to feed with a vastly different culture etc The whole China Military thing is about "protecting" their "rightful" territory so I don't think the citizens will support it all that much (although the gov doesn't need the people support) Well yeah, a lot of people just don't give a shit about north korea. A lot of people do, but are very limited in the ways they can help the people in that country. No one has the political will to over throw that government and then invest the next 10-15 years in rebuilding that country. Or, in other words, they don't give enough shits to do anything. Not enough to go to war and deal with 15 years of economic and cultural problems, no. I don't think that makes people terrible. And also that country has nukes.
Only 15 years, I feel like it would take much longer if ever to heal, will probably never fully, I mean look at Germany as it's still to a certain extent divided. There's the societal and probably a whole lot of problems as well.
I find the attitude now and in the past quite a few South Koreans have towards North Korean defectors to be interesting, that they in a way see them as parasites and that they're as a whole a burden.
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On August 21 2015 22:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:47 Alcathous wrote:On August 21 2015 22:38 Plansix wrote:
Sarcasm is hard on the Internet. Especially non-witty sarcasm. Deadpan sarcasm is my main export. If you question if I'm being sarcastic, I've accomplished my goal.
I don't question it. It is just really crude and shows lack of understanding of the views of the people you wish to ridicule.
Also, it is completely non-constructive. But I guess you just admitted your only goal was to derail meaningful debate.
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On August 21 2015 22:58 Alcathous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 22:52 Plansix wrote:On August 21 2015 22:47 Alcathous wrote:On August 21 2015 22:38 Plansix wrote:
Sarcasm is hard on the Internet. Especially non-witty sarcasm. Deadpan sarcasm is my main export. If you question if I'm being sarcastic, I've accomplished my goal. I don't question it. It is just really crude and shows lack of understanding of the views of the people you wish to ridicule. Also, it is completely non-constructive. But I guess you just admitted your only goal was to derail meaningful debate.
"Meaningful debate" isn't much of a thing when you can't even get your facts straight on the Korean war and why Korea is divided. And then you claimed people who believed that NK was a buffer zone for Chain(who took part in the Korean war) were victims of propaganda. And that we don't have allies in the region like Japan and other nations.
Not all topics of debate are created equal. This one isn't meaningful.
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I never made any claims on what caused the Korean war.
Never made claims about allies.
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EPT
