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This is some big news in Sweden, and it's called the biggest scandal of the decade.
Background: Swedish match is a Swedish company that basically has monopoly on Swedish tobacco production, but produces mainly a Swedish speciality called "snus". It's basically tobacco that you put behind your lip, resting on your gums that gives you a constant flow of nicotine. It gives you more nicotine overall than smoking, but in smaller portions, and it's considered a much healthier choice. It's been a Scandinavian speciality for about 200 years, and about 25% of the Swedish population is regularly using it.
Pictures of snus in the 'loose' form and the 'bags'.
![[image loading]](http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u555/AdrianCullberg/Snus_tobacco_zpsb66ee32a.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u555/AdrianCullberg/Portioned_snus_zpsec948622.jpg)
Swedish politicians a long with Swedish match have been lobbying to make it legal to sell on the EU market, where it's currently banned. The reasoning the lobbyists is that it's used to get off smoking, and a population using snus is a much healthier population than a smoking one. The health dangers of snus is that frequent use for over 50~ years can badly damage your gums, and it's rumoured to increase the risks of getting pancreas cancer. It's basically harmless compared to other tobacco products.
The reason for the EU to stop it is that they want to get rid of all tobacco products, and don't want any diversity. They're currently working on removing flavoured cigarettes, removing brand marketing on the covers, covering cigarette packages with medicinal pictures of smokers lungs etc. Bringing another kind of tobacco product out on the market would be against that.
This has pretty much been at a standstill for ages.
What's happened: Swedish match was contacted by a Maltese company that put forth the proposal that Swedish match should give them 60 million euros, and in exchange the Maltese EU commissioner would break the ban on sales of snus.
This rose a shitstorm, as it's the first big case of bribery and corruption that high up within the EU. The EU anti corruption commission has come to the conclusion that the Maltese commissioner was aware of the proposal and he's had to leave office.
The anti tobacco lobby claims that it's all a big plot that the tobacco company has cooked up, and that none of it is true.
I thought the case was interesting, because I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking.
I hope the article didn't come off as too biased.
http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/media-corner/press-releases/press-releases/2012/20121019_01_en.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/19/oukwd-uk-eu-health-dalli-idAFBRE89I0VQ20121019
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Don't worry, I like your article. Should this be true, this does should not make it only into swedish news, it concerns the whole EU. Do you have any english sources, or could you link a swedish one please?
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I don't really have an opinion of snus and it's pretty dumb to be illegal anyway but if this is true that's some grade A corruption from Malta. Snus still runs the risk of esophageal cancer also I'm sure, and that shit is not pretty.
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Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years).
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On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years).
Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned?
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On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned?
And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage.
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On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years).
You can get snus in the US at pretty much any gas station. The one I worked at had this little refrigerated display case for the containers. It's a little different than chewing tobacco.
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On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years).
I think it's disgusting, but I don't support the ban. Who am I to tell adults what they can and can't put in their bodies?
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On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage.
My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous.
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On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous.
I'm agreeing with you.
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On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous.
Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again.
The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity.
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On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned?
Don't take him out of context, you know what he means.
If snus is anything like chewing tobacco around here (which he seems to think it is), it needs to die fast.
(not saying I think it is like chewing tobacco, I have no idea personally)
As for my opinion on the ban, I like the war they're waging on tobacco products. Tobacco products tend to be boring, addictive and deadly. Even worse, the most popular products tend to fuck over people nearby as well. The sooner tobacco dies, the better.
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Does someone else have non-swedish sources for this? I don't know anything about the credibility of those, but if it is true, it is quite serious. You should not be able to change laws by paying some maltese company. Of course, it might just have been a scam by that maltese company, too.
How trustworthy are those swedish sources?
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On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity.
Well you guys have a long list of things you need to ban then. smoking, drinking alcohol, fatty foods...
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On October 23 2012 04:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? Don't take him out of context, you know what he means. If snus is anything like chewing tobacco around here (which he seems to think it is), it needs to die fast. (not saying I think it is like chewing tobacco, I have no idea personally) As for my opinion on the ban, I like the war they're waging on tobacco products. Tobacco products tend to be boring, addictive and deadly. Even worse, the most popular products tend to fuck over people nearby as well. The sooner tobacco dies, the better.
It is not like chewing tobacco.
The snus size of the portion ones is about as big as the last joint of your pinky (about 2cm~/0,8inches). It's not something you chew, and you get nicotine through absorption of the thin skin of the gums rather than through swallowing. You barely swallow any of the juices or anything.
On October 23 2012 04:26 Simberto wrote:
Does someone else have non-swedish sources for this? I don't know anything about the credibility of those, but if it is true, it is quite serious. You should not be able to change laws by paying some maltese company. Of course, it might just have been a scam by that maltese company, too.
How trustworthy are those swedish sources?
The case is up in EU anti corruption commission which is of the opinion that he was aware of this happening, and he's basically been forced to resign. This is information from basically every Swedish media outlet.
Here's the EU olaf press release: http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/media-corner/press-releases/press-releases/2012/20121019_01_en.htm
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May I ask why someone wants to put tobacco in his mouth? The smoke taste...OK, but that snus would need a lot of flavor enhancers to taste good. Other wise, every one who got accidentally some tobacco parts in his mouth can confirm that it tastes horrible.
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Chewing tobacco is way more dangerous for you than snus, apparently due to it being fire-cured rather than steam-cured like swedish snus.
edit:^ to above me, smoking also tastes like shit first time you do it. It's an acquired taste, swedish snus is generally very salty too.
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Thank you. I threw that in along with the EU press release.
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On October 23 2012 04:12 heliusx wrote:
I don't really have an opinion of snus and it's pretty dumb to be illegal anyway but if this is true that's some grade A corruption from Malta. Snus still runs the risk of esophageal cancer also I'm sure, and that shit is not pretty.
It is dumb for smoking/cigarettes/cigar/nicotine/lung cancer to be banned?
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On October 23 2012 04:39 either I or wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:12 heliusx wrote:
I don't really have an opinion of snus and it's pretty dumb to be illegal anyway but if this is true that's some grade A corruption from Malta. Snus still runs the risk of esophageal cancer also I'm sure, and that shit is not pretty. It is dumb for smoking/cigarettes/cigar/nicotine/lung cancer to be banned?
No the point would be that since it wont give you lung cancer but can be a substitute to cigarettes it is stupid to ban it. Especially if youre going to allow cigarettes that obviously is worse.
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"It's basically harmless compared to other tobacco products." - from OP
Does anybody else really hate this phrase? Every tobacco product is bad for your health, regardless of the way it is used. Saying something is "basically harmless" in relation to the other ways you can use tobacco is a pretty terrible argument. The wording of it is very misleading. When you can still get gum disease and cancer from tobacco, it is not "basically harmless". It's like comparing cigarettes to more hardcore drugs like meth in that cigarettes are "basically harmless" compared to meth. It's still really bad for you.
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On October 23 2012 04:28 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity. Well you guys have a long list of things you need to ban then. smoking, drinking alcohol, fatty foods...
Television increases the likelihood of obesity. Ban that.
Nascar encourages you to drive fast. They crash on a fairly regular basis. Ban that.
Google "Jenkem". We better ban taking a dump.
See how quickly this can turn ridiculous? Just because someone can abuse it doesn't mean we should ban it altogether. Btw, obesity causes a larger stress on the public health care system. Might wanna get on that one first.
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On October 23 2012 04:45 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:39 either I or wrote:On October 23 2012 04:12 heliusx wrote:
I don't really have an opinion of snus and it's pretty dumb to be illegal anyway but if this is true that's some grade A corruption from Malta. Snus still runs the risk of esophageal cancer also I'm sure, and that shit is not pretty. It is dumb for smoking/cigarettes/cigar/nicotine/lung cancer to be banned? No the point would be that since it wont give you lung cancer but can be a substitute to cigarettes it is stupid to ban it. Especially if youre going to allow cigarettes that obviously is worse.
Even though snus is practically harmless compared to many of our legal substances, the counter argument would be that as it isn't exactly healthy, there's no point in legalizing it.
It's not run by drug cartels, but by very qualified and regulated companies, so there's no "take it off the streets" argument that is found in the marijuana debate.
I'd like to see it legalized because as you said it's a substitute, it can be compared with bad fats and sweeteners when it comes to health effects, rather than smoking which is horrible in comparison. Imo it gets an undeserved bad rep because it contains tobacco.
I'd like to once more point out that it's not the same as chewing tobacco or the American version. The way it works is that you put a tiny tea bag with steam processed tobacco behind your lip and the thin skin absorbs the nicotine. You don't swallow juices, you don't spit around, you don't chew anything.
The man way of doing it is that you skip the bag and have it loose. Still the same idea, but it's moister, so you swallow more. Both are about as popular, with the bags more popular in the cities, and the man way is more spread in the countryside.
On October 23 2012 04:50 Epishade wrote:
"It's basically harmless compared to other tobacco products." - from OP
Does anybody else really hate this phrase? Every tobacco product is bad for your health, regardless of the way it is used. Saying something is "basically harmless" in relation to the other ways you can use tobacco is a pretty terrible argument. The wording of it is very misleading. When you can still get gum disease and cancer from tobacco, it is not "basically harmless". It's like comparing cigarettes to more hardcore drugs like meth in that cigarettes are "basically harmless" compared to meth. It's still really bad for you.
It's like saying that sugar and fats are basically harmless. Obviously it's not completely true. It's still bad for you, but it won't hurt you much as long as you don't overdo it or are particularly sensitive.
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On October 23 2012 04:50 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:28 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity. Well you guys have a long list of things you need to ban then. smoking, drinking alcohol, fatty foods... Television increases the likelihood of obesity. Ban that. Nascar encourages you to drive fast. They crash on a fairly regular basis. Ban that. Google "Jenkem". We better ban taking a dump. See how quickly this can turn ridiculous? Just because someone can abuse it doesn't mean we should ban it altogether. Btw, obesity causes a larger stress on the public health care system. Might wanna get on that one first.
I agree. His point was that it causes others no harm, my point was that it does but in a more indirect way. Second hand smoking, people becoming aggressive with alcohol and destroying stuff, healtchare burden, etc. I never said that you should ban it altogether.
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"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all...
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I don't see why this should not be allowed. As previous posters said, everybody should be in theory be free to do whatever they want with their body. The problem of smoking was that you also damage the health of the people next to you while you smoke.
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On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all...
Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we?
I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all.
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United States42076 Posts
On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity.
Not actually true. It works out that with universal healthcare plus social security it's cheaper to have people smoke themselves to death. It's not like only people with risky lifestyles die, everyone dies, the difference is that the long healthcare costs of smokers and drinkers happen around the same time they stop working whereas the morally superior healthy people claim pensions, spend years with their great grandchildren and eventually require hospice/full time care before they get some other type of cancer.
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It gives you more nicotine overall than smoking, but in smaller portions
What does this mean? So is it, or isn't it, more nicotine overall?
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eww this looks disgusting wouldnt this make your teeth really yellow
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On October 23 2012 05:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity. Not actually true. It works out that with universal healthcare plus social security it's cheaper to have people smoke themselves to death. It's not like only people with risky lifestyles die, everyone dies, the difference is that the long healthcare costs of smokers and drinkers happen around the same time they stop working whereas the morally superior healthy people claim pensions, spend years with their great grandchildren and eventually require hospice/full time care before they get some other type of cancer.
That makes sense.
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On October 23 2012 05:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity. Not actually true. It works out that with universal healthcare plus social security it's cheaper to have people smoke themselves to death. It's not like only people with risky lifestyles die, everyone dies, the difference is that the long healthcare costs of smokers and drinkers happen around the same time they stop working whereas the morally superior healthy people claim pensions, spend years with their great grandchildren and eventually require hospice/full time care before they get some other type of cancer.
source please
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On October 23 2012 04:39 either I or wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:12 heliusx wrote:
I don't really have an opinion of snus and it's pretty dumb to be illegal anyway but if this is true that's some grade A corruption from Malta. Snus still runs the risk of esophageal cancer also I'm sure, and that shit is not pretty. It is dumb for smoking/cigarettes/cigar/nicotine/lung cancer to be banned?
I recently read that the vast majority of lung cancer cases are unrelated to smoking. Interesting factoid.
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On October 23 2012 05:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:What does this mean? So is it, or isn't it, more nicotine overall?
You get more nicotine out of snus, but that's because you constantly got one in during the day. Smoking gives you overall less nicotine, but in much higher shock doses.
It's like drinking beer and drinking vodka. The beer drinker might get more alcohol, but as it's spread out over a longer period of time he doesn't get as drunk.
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On October 23 2012 05:25 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:17 KwarK wrote:On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity. Not actually true. It works out that with universal healthcare plus social security it's cheaper to have people smoke themselves to death. It's not like only people with risky lifestyles die, everyone dies, the difference is that the long healthcare costs of smokers and drinkers happen around the same time they stop working whereas the morally superior healthy people claim pensions, spend years with their great grandchildren and eventually require hospice/full time care before they get some other type of cancer. source please
The study was conducted by Arthur D. Little and found that smokers' early mortality and cigarette-tax revenue, outweighed the costs of health-care and lost tax revenue from early death.The study concluded through cost-benefit analysis "based on up-to-date reliable data and consideration of all relevant contributing factors, the effect of smoking on the public finance balance in the Czech Republic in 1999 was positive, estimated at +5,815 mil. CZK."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Finance_Balance_of_Smoking_in_the_Czech_Republic
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On October 23 2012 05:26 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:20 Dangermousecatdog wrote:It gives you more nicotine overall than smoking, but in smaller portions What does this mean? So is it, or isn't it, more nicotine overall? You get more nicotine out of snus, but that's because you constantly got one in during the day. Smoking gives you overall less nicotine, but in much higher shock doses. It's like drinking beer and drinking vodka. The beer drinker might get more alcohol, but as it's spread out over a longer period of time he doesn't get as drunk.
Nicotine =/= Alcohol
Even smoking cigarettes 24hrs a day wouldn't be enough to overdose on nicotine.
Shock doses doesn't exist for nicotine.
Addiction on the otherhand does.
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On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all.
You are being ridiculous and your addiction to nicotine is typing the words you are posting here, it's actually kind of sad to see.
The gums of long term snus users look absolutely terrible, several of which can fit a small sized potatoe cut in half behind their lip due to the hole from snus usage causing gum retraction. 6 years is not long term, especially if you started at a young age when the body is at its peak physical condition. The problems from nicotine don't arise in such a short timespan, I used to smoke for 10 years between the age of 14 to 24 and had no negative effects on my health during that time, I also used snus on and off.
I havent smoked a single cigarette or used nicotine in any way shape or form since. The short term effects were amazing, the feeling of accomplishment after going to the gym when your brain is free to stimulate your reward system is just something on a whole different level, sex becomes so much better and the feelings you experience when you accomplish difficult tasks is extatic.
You start encountering issues with poisoning your body and getting addicted to dopamine stimulation from drugs when you get older, making it that much harder to stop. Snus users run an increased risk of pancreatic cancer, have a dysfunctional metabolic system due to high nicotine intake and their blood vessels become increasingly ineffecient.
Just this year, type 2 diabetes was linked to the metabolic system and accepted in generally all medical journals, and studies have started not to determine <if> the metabolic dysfunction caused by nicotine increases the chance of diabetes, but by how much.
With nicotine being more addicting than both cocaine and heroin due to it's profound impact on the mesombilic pathway ,the psychological risks you take when becoming addicted to something that is 100% proven to retard your brains reward system are tremendous. It alters your whole persona and transforms your way of thinking, they way you experience good things that happen in life becomes less impactful due to the retardation caused by nicotine.
Basically, taking a snus is like writing a cheat code that causes you to feel good about yourself, now if you write that cheat code and have that experience 3-10 times a day, when you actually do something awesome your brain just goes "meh".
Your whole way of arguing by comparing snus to anything else is warped, you should take something for what it is on itself, you shouldn't cloud your judgement based on your own extreme nicotine addiction, the simple fact is you are a different person both mentally and physically in a negative way when addicting yourself to nicotine or any drug designed to retard your reward system.
And yes, alcohol should be illegal, but it will not because of the financial and cultural impact, mainly to how easy it is to produce for the general population, not because of the health risks.
Apple pie is delicious.
edit:
Take it from someone thats "been there and done that", breaking free of a 10 year+ nictoine addiction is one of the hardest things I've had to do in life. What I got in return is a perspective on certain things that nobody can teach you. Quit while you can, the feeling nicotine gives you is replaceable by being awesome.
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A friend of mine jammed a fork into his eye, therefore I think forks should be banned.
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On October 23 2012 05:50 theJob wrote:
A friend of mine jammed a fork into his eye, therefore I think forks should be banned.
Primary purpose of a fork isn't to be jammed into a person's eye. Primary purpose of a cigarette / snus is... fill in the blank yourself. You are supposed to get addicted off this stuff, it comes with the product.
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In Norway, where we label 'everything' dangerous, our sigarette packs says "smoking kills", "smoking leads to cancer", and so forth. On the snus packages the warnings are more vague and are labeled as "this tobacco item can cause health problems and is addictive". If there were hard evidence that snus 100% certainly leads to cancer, or other horrible diseases, the bleeding hearts in our government would have that warning on in a heartbeat.
EDIT:
The lables, translated from wikipedia:
Sigarettes:
On the front side of the pack:
• Smoking kills
• Smoking is very harmfull for you and your surroundings
On the back side of the pack:
• Smoking reduces your living age
• Smoking causes calcification of your veins and causes heart attack and strokes.
• Smoking leads to deadly lungcancer
• Smoking during pregnancy causes harm to the fetus
• Protect your children from tobacco smoke, don't let them breathe your smoke
• Contact a doctor or your farmacy for help to stop smoking
• Smoking is addictive. Don't start to smoke
• If you stop smoking you reduce the chance of deadly heart- and lung diseases
• Smoking can lead to a long and painful death
• Get help to stop smoking - call toll free 800 400 84
• Smoking can reduce your blod flow and lead to impotence
• Smoking causes early aging of your skin
• Smoking can reduce your sperm quality and reduce your fertility
• Sigarettes contains benzen, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and prussic acid
Snus
On the back side of the box:
• This tobacco item can be damaging to your health and is addictive.
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On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years).
Please don't talk bullshit when you have no f***ing idea what you are talking about...Just because you think it is like something that doesnt mean it is. Below your post others saw what you wrote and continues the bandwagon of useless posts of misinformation. This doesnt leave much other marks than drinking coffee would do. Unless you have done it for 50+ years like the OP says then you wont see it on a person.
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On October 23 2012 05:56 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:50 theJob wrote:
A friend of mine jammed a fork into his eye, therefore I think forks should be banned. Primary purpose of a fork isn't to be jammed into a person's eye. Primary purpose of a cigarette / snus is... fill in the blank yourself. You are supposed to get addicted off this stuff, it comes with the product.
Well, replace fork with sugar, transfats, alcohol, extreme sports, inactive lifestyle etc.
I view the ownership of my own body as infrangible and thus noone but me has the authority to control what I can or can't do with it.
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Is that what you tell yourself thejob, when you try to travel to and from the USA?
Is that what you tell yourself whenever you encounter the hundreds of laws or social situations which tell you what you can or cannot do?
Heck, there is probably a law from the authority of your government detailing your own seatbelt usage.
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You honestly think snus is "healthier" than other tobacco products?
I highly doubt that ...
I don't see why it should be banned though.
about the scandal - shit like that happens with politicians frequently, I don't really care.
I'm happy it was revealed though and the guy has to be punished of course.
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Afaik it's not the same thing really. From what I've understood the American versions basically forces you to spit around and such. The Swedish one doesn't get that moist and it's just dry in your mouth behind the lip.
I've been using it 18 hours a day for about 5 years now and the dentist think I have remarkably good teeth.[/QUOTE]
Snus also has the great benefit of keeping bacteria out of your mouth! It's true that dentists often remark "snusers" to have great mouth hygiene. I can vouch for this myself, as i am also a frequent snuser.
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On October 23 2012 05:47 Nihilnovi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. You are being ridiculous and your addiction to nicotine is typing the words you are posting here, it's actually kind of sad to see. The gums of long term snus users look absolutely terrible, several of which can fit a small sized potatoe cut in half behind their lip due to the hole from snus usage causing gum retraction. 6 years is not long term, especially if you started at a young age when the body is at its peak physical condition. The problems from nicotine don't arise in such a short timespan, I used to smoke for 10 years between the age of 14 to 24 and had no negative effects on my health during that time, I also used snus on and off. I havent smoked a single cigarette or used nicotine in any way shape or form since. The short term effects were amazing, the feeling of accomplishment after going to the gym when your brain is free to stimulate your reward system is just something on a whole different level, sex becomes so much better and the feelings you experience when you accomplish difficult tasks is extatic. You start encountering issues with poisoning your body and getting addicted to dopamine stimulation from drugs when you get older, making it that much harder to stop. Snus users run an increased risk of pancreatic cancer, have a dysfunctional metabolic system due to high nicotine intake and their blood vessels become increasingly ineffecient. Just this year, type 2 diabetes was linked to the metabolic system and accepted in generally all medical journals, and studies have started not to determine <if> the metabolic dysfunction caused by nicotine increases the chance of diabetes, but by how much. With nicotine being more addicting than both cocaine and heroin due to it's profound impact on the mesombilic pathway ,the psychological risks you take when becoming addicted to something that is 100% proven to retard your brains reward system are tremendous. It alters your whole persona and transforms your way of thinking, they way you experience good things that happen in life becomes less impactful due to the retardation caused by nicotine. Basically, taking a snus is like writing a cheat code that causes you to feel good about yourself, now if you write that cheat code and have that experience 3-10 times a day, when you actually do something awesome your brain just goes "meh". Your whole way of arguing by comparing snus to anything else is warped, you should take something for what it is on itself, you shouldn't cloud your judgement based on your own extreme nicotine addiction, the simple fact is you are a different person both mentally and physically in a negative way when addicting yourself to nicotine or any drug designed to retard your reward system. And yes, alcohol should be illegal, but it will not because of the financial and cultural impact, mainly to how easy it is to produce for the general population, not because of the health risks. Apple pie is delicious. edit: Take it from someone thats "been there and done that", breaking free of a 10 year+ nictoine addiction is one of the hardest things I've had to do in life. What I got in return is a perspective on certain things that nobody can teach you. Quit while you can, the feeling nicotine gives you is replaceable by being awesome.
There's no clear research on the health dangers of snus.
For instance there is research that suggests that having nicotine in your body increases the risk of dying once you have a heart attack, but it doesn't increase the risk of having one. Most research has counter arguments, and it's blurry to see what the actual risks are and how big they are.
Additional potential health risks (if there are any) are rather undiscovered, and there's mainly lobbying back and forth.
As it's salty, it's obviously corrosive. I won't deny that, but "long term" is still quite a bloody long time we're talking about. Yeah it's not a good habit to keep throughout your life.
It's quite possible you're correct with the mood approach. I haven't heard anything of that, but it makes sense. I do think you might be exaggerating the effect though. It's not like a smoker or a snuser won't ever feel a sense of accomplishment.
You take it from your own experience, but there's tonnes of people who've quit with different opinions and approaches, so I'm going to take it with a grain of salt. It's obviously fairly addictive but nowhere near heroin. It doesn't give you a physical withdrawal symptoms, and there's lot's of people who just quit on a whim after several years and never thought more of it. They said they had a harder time quitting with coffee.
Obviously this as well is anecdotal evidence I've gathered from my friends, but I hope it shows that there are different opinions on the matter.
Maybe it's just the nicotine talking though 
Edit. Sorry if I came off as too aggressive. I have a bad habit of doing that in discussions. Thank you for your input, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.
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On October 23 2012 04:17 WTFZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). You can get snus in the US at pretty much any gas station. The one I worked at had this little refrigerated display case for the containers. It's a little different than chewing tobacco.
where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots.
Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products.
I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though.
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On October 23 2012 06:18 Promethelax wrote:
where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots.
Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products.
I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though.
Are you sure that was snus..? Because that sounds fucking horrible. Like super fucking horrible. Anyone who has taken a swig of an ale bottle with snus (dumped) in it would agree.
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On October 23 2012 06:21 loladin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:18 Promethelax wrote:
where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots.
Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products.
I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though. Are you sure that was snus..? Because that sounds fucking horrible. Like super fucking horrible. Anyone who has taken a swig of an ale bottle with snus (dumped) in it would agree.
Well very few people in their teens drink vodka for the taste 
I guess they'd do it for the rush. I'm sure it tastes like liquid ass though.
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On October 23 2012 06:18 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:17 WTFZerg wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). You can get snus in the US at pretty much any gas station. The one I worked at had this little refrigerated display case for the containers. It's a little different than chewing tobacco. where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots. Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products. I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though.
That's interesting. I feel like those Snu shots are a mistake though, that can't be a good idea...
The "effects others" is the drawback that finally got me to quit smoking. I enjoyed being a smoker, I really did. Not the smoke itself, and definitely not the taste, but I loved the act of smoking. When I go to a bar, I bail immediately and go chill in the smoke pit once I've got a little bit of a buzz on. If my smoking wasn't a danger to my daughter, I'd still smoke to this day... So it makes me wonder where I'd be right now if they were available here in Canada. Hmm...
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Two things i don't get here:
a) Why would snus be banned.
b) Why would snus be any better than smoking if you overlook the effect on your friends/family.
And Nihilnovi's story was quite the treat  .
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On October 23 2012 06:26 Pimpmuckl wrote:Two things i don't get here: a) Why would snus be banned. b) Why would snus be any better than smoking if you overlook the effect on your friends/family. And Nihilnovi's story was quite the treat .
a) Because the EU is of the opinion that there's no point in legalizing. It's not something that's 'healthy' so why legalize? Might as well keep it restricted.
b) Nicotine is one of the lesser evils of smoking. The worst part is probably the fact that it's burning your lung tissue. Then there's all the other substances that are released when burning something. In a house fire, the smoke is what kills you, not the fire.
Snus is a whole different concept. The nicotine is the only dangerous substance, along with the fact that it's salty so it's slightly corrosive on your gums, which can turn bad after long (read 50 years+) of use.
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On October 23 2012 06:05 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Is that what you tell yourself thejob, when you try to travel to and from the USA?
Is that what you tell yourself whenever you encounter the hundreds of laws or social situations which tell you what you can or cannot do?
Heck, there is probably a law from the authority of your government detailing your own seatbelt usage.
Ones own personal view of the law and the one in effect in a country doesn't have to be the same.
For example I believe that the slaves in 17 century america and the jews in 1940 germany was the sole owners of their own body even though the law of the land didn't. And I do believe that I have to right to consume any given substance on this earth even though most state-laws forbid me to do so.
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All Im going to say is your country is healthier with this product than without atm. When cigarettes gets banned then you can start getting rid of this.
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On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all.
way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way.
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So what the heck is the difference between chewing tobacco?
I don't support a ban, but I hate that shit, just because people are so inconsiderate with it. It smells far worse than cigarettes and is a million times worse in cleaning up. I'd much rather someone drop a cigarette on my property than spit that crap on my property. Too many times has someone used a cup at a party (plastic cup) to spit their tobacco into, and when we're cleaning all the cups the next morning and just instantly dumping them into the sink, that shit gets all over and it's so disgusting to clean up.
Isn't it significantly more likely to cause tongue/throat cancer (assuming they even exist, just something I've heard)? I'm surprised to hear that it's more healthy than smoking as there's quite a stigma in the U.S. in terms of the health effects caused by chewing tobacco.
It's disgusting enough I'd never date a girl that had that habit for sure. I find it utterly repulsive.
EDIT: Apparentl ti's different than chewing tobacco.
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I find it equally disgusting to clean up beer cans/bottles with cig butts in them, hell that cant even be showed down the drain!
Tho it's always funny that the consequences of large-scale corruption is "stepping down" (prolly with a solid parachute as well?)
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On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way.
The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill.
With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful.
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Euronyme, you have turned what should be an impartial news report on corruption into an attempt to place some biased personal snus affirmation of your habit. really tired of seeing these kind of opening posts where the poster tries to affirm their own personal opinion into a new item. How disappointing.
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Regardless of what most people think, Snus (and chewing tobacco for the most part) is much healthier for you than smoking tobacco. Snus has very minor effects on ones health, besides slight gum recession because of the salt. American chewing tobacco is worse for you, because it causes you to salivate and swallowing tobacco spit is not good for you at all.
I mean come on, when you smoke your inhaling smoke into your lungs! Just that fact should make it obvious that snus is the lesser of the two evils.
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Snus destroys you mouth, I have several friends why use it actively and their dentists can see that they are users in around one second.
Any person who is new to snusing will have a bump above their lip. If you are an experienced user, you will not have that bump. Why is that? Because the snus is corrosive and will eat away at the flesh in your gum.
It may not seems so bad that it creates a nice pocket for itself but trust me, people who have used for long don't have pretty teeth.
There is a fundamental difference between snus and alcohol btw, when you look at either you have to weigh the benefits against the negatives. Banning snus in most of Europe has almost no negative consequences since there is no demand for it. Banning alcohol would create upheaval and would badly damage the economy and boost organized crime. Is either of them morally right? Nope, but moral is subjective
EDIT: Also, if you are a snuser you are not much of a kisser. That should be reason enough, shouldn't it?
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On October 23 2012 06:21 loladin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:18 Promethelax wrote:
where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots.
Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products.
I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though. Are you sure that was snus..? Because that sounds fucking horrible. Like super fucking horrible. Anyone who has taken a swig of an ale bottle with snus (dumped) in it would agree.
yes I'm sure and yes it was horrible. But it got you good and fucked up; I never knew anyone to take the snus shots and not black out.
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Difference between dip, chew, snuff and snus
Some forms of tobacco consumed in the mouth may be categorized as:
Snus (Scandinavian) is a moist Scandinavian form of snuff which is placed under the upper lip which does not result in the need for spitting.
Snus (American) is similar to the Scandinavian form of snus. Most American snus generally has a lower moisture content and lower pH, resulting in lower bioavailability of nicotine than Swedish varieties [3]
Chewing tobacco, tobacco furnished as long strands which is placed between the cheek and gum or teeth
Nasal snuff (luktsnus in Swedish and luktesnus in Norwegian), a dry form of snuff which is insufflated or "snuffed" through the nose.
Dipping tobacco (also known as dip, spit tobacco or confusingly moist snuff) is a moist American form of traditional snuff which is placed between the lower lip and the gums and often causes excess saliva while dipping.
Source
Difference between US and Swedish snus.
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On October 23 2012 04:56 Euronyme wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2012 04:45 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:39 either I or wrote:On October 23 2012 04:12 heliusx wrote:
I don't really have an opinion of snus and it's pretty dumb to be illegal anyway but if this is true that's some grade A corruption from Malta. Snus still runs the risk of esophageal cancer also I'm sure, and that shit is not pretty. It is dumb for smoking/cigarettes/cigar/nicotine/lung cancer to be banned? No the point would be that since it wont give you lung cancer but can be a substitute to cigarettes it is stupid to ban it. Especially if youre going to allow cigarettes that obviously is worse. Even though snus is practically harmless compared to many of our legal substances, the counter argument would be that as it isn't exactly healthy, there's no point in legalizing it. It's not run by drug cartels, but by very qualified and regulated companies, so there's no "take it off the streets" argument that is found in the marijuana debate. I'd like to see it legalized because as you said it's a substitute, it can be compared with bad fats and sweeteners when it comes to health effects, rather than smoking which is horrible in comparison. Imo it gets an undeserved bad rep because it contains tobacco. I'd like to once more point out that it's not the same as chewing tobacco or the American version. The way it works is that you put a tiny tea bag with steam processed tobacco behind your lip and the thin skin absorbs the nicotine. You don't swallow juices, you don't spit around, you don't chew anything. The man way of doing it is that you skip the bag and have it loose. Still the same idea, but it's moister, so you swallow more. Both are about as popular, with the bags more popular in the cities, and the man way is more spread in the countryside. + Show Spoiler +On October 23 2012 04:50 Epishade wrote:
"It's basically harmless compared to other tobacco products." - from OP
Does anybody else really hate this phrase? Every tobacco product is bad for your health, regardless of the way it is used. Saying something is "basically harmless" in relation to the other ways you can use tobacco is a pretty terrible argument. The wording of it is very misleading. When you can still get gum disease and cancer from tobacco, it is not "basically harmless". It's like comparing cigarettes to more hardcore drugs like meth in that cigarettes are "basically harmless" compared to meth. It's still really bad for you. It's like saying that sugar and fats are basically harmless. Obviously it's not completely true. It's still bad for you, but it won't hurt you much as long as you don't overdo it or are particularly sensitive.
There are snus in the us, but they are slightly different. And that's also how the more popular dipping tobacco is used in the us, sometimes called "dip","rub","chew" or "snuff" as slang, though it is actually "moist snuff"(regular dry snuff is inhaled). Dip is held between lip and gum to be absorbed through the skin(though usually lower lip instead of upper like snus). You don't swallow, but you are supposed to spit out juices that arise from the snuff mixing with your natural saliva. It's not actually chewed(that would be chewing tobacco, which has not been ground).
+ Show Spoiler +
Snus (Scandinavian) is a moist Scandinavian form of snuff which is placed under the upper lip which does not result in the need for spitting.
Snus (American) is similar to the Scandinavian form of snus. Most American snus generally has a lower moisture content and lower pH, resulting in lower bioavailability of nicotine than Swedish varieties
Chewing tobacco, tobacco furnished as long strands which is placed between the cheek and gum or teeth
Nasal snuff (luktsnus in Swedish and luktesnus in Norwegian), a dry form of snuff which is insufflated or "snuffed" through the nose.
Dipping tobacco (also known as dip, spit tobacco or confusingly moist snuff) is a moist American form of traditional snuff which is placed between the lower lip and the gums and often causes excess saliva while dipping.
Chewing and dipping tobacco are thought to cause several oral cancers, from tongue to lip to throat to cheek to gum, etc, but possibly at less risk than smoking. Snus are supposedly safer, but the other smokeless tobaccos aren't necessarily safe.
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Isn't this just another EU ploy to get $? Similar to Microsoft cases and other big company cases. They want to charge them $ because the economy is in a weakened state. The only issue is that these companies are doing a job if they want to raise the taxes on them I'm all for it, but making up a bullshit court case to get cash wastes the company's money on lawyers and it is time consuming for the company rather than just charge them in taxes.
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It's really bad but it's not that amazing.
Germany military companys payed millions to portuguese military to buy them submarines, the deals were over 1000 million euros just with the portuguese deal plus the Greeks.
Corruption is really bad and should be more investigated, especially in Portugal where no one goes to jail.
I'm a smoker and we allready pay for the most expensive tabacco in the world and we can't smoke in many places these days, don't see the need for more options. We should all just quit anyways.
If it's going to be allowed any day, it has to go by proper means, not by shaddy deals.
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On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful.
So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?
Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds.
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On October 23 2012 06:57 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:21 loladin wrote:On October 23 2012 06:18 Promethelax wrote:
where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots.
Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products.
I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though. Are you sure that was snus..? Because that sounds fucking horrible. Like super fucking horrible. Anyone who has taken a swig of an ale bottle with snus (dumped) in it would agree. yes I'm sure and yes it was horrible. But it got you good and fucked up; I never knew anyone to take the snus shots and not black out.
This is so strange. I've been on this stuff for 18 years and it has always been around in my environment, and I have never, ever, heard about someone doing something like that. Sure I've witnessed a poor soul that has taken a sip of a can that someone has put snus in, but that has only resulted in a funny face and lots of spitting. I can't imagine that snus would have any part in "fucked up" and "black out". I really can't. A vomit but that's it.
Anyway. Corruption is bad and it's interesting to read others (people from other countries) thoughts about snus.
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On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned?
yeah. theres no medicinal reason for allowing it, so why should we allow something that damages health into the larger EU world so that some company can make some easy money?
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Just because it contains tobacco, they do not allow it, this is stupid, it could help millions of people, to me it is just a nicotine substitute like those you can find in pharmacies, but there is also a big corruption story, like anywhere money is.
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On October 23 2012 06:48 blomsterjohn wrote:
I find it equally disgusting to clean up beer cans/bottles with cig butts in them, hell that cant even be showed down the drain!
Tho it's always funny that the consequences of large-scale corruption is "stepping down" (prolly with a solid parachute as well?)
Me too, but it's not really an issue b/c I don't let people smoke inside my place. Have had a few nasty incidents where I didn't realize a beer bottle had cigarette butts in in though.
The absolute worst was once my drunken friend though assumed someone merely didn't finish his beer (still during the party, not the next morning) and grabbed the beer and started to drink, only to find out someone was using it for their chewing tobacco. I think I'd personally instantly vomit.
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On October 23 2012 06:15 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:47 Nihilnovi wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. You are being ridiculous and your addiction to nicotine is typing the words you are posting here, it's actually kind of sad to see. The gums of long term snus users look absolutely terrible, several of which can fit a small sized potatoe cut in half behind their lip due to the hole from snus usage causing gum retraction. 6 years is not long term, especially if you started at a young age when the body is at its peak physical condition. The problems from nicotine don't arise in such a short timespan, I used to smoke for 10 years between the age of 14 to 24 and had no negative effects on my health during that time, I also used snus on and off. I havent smoked a single cigarette or used nicotine in any way shape or form since. The short term effects were amazing, the feeling of accomplishment after going to the gym when your brain is free to stimulate your reward system is just something on a whole different level, sex becomes so much better and the feelings you experience when you accomplish difficult tasks is extatic. You start encountering issues with poisoning your body and getting addicted to dopamine stimulation from drugs when you get older, making it that much harder to stop. Snus users run an increased risk of pancreatic cancer, have a dysfunctional metabolic system due to high nicotine intake and their blood vessels become increasingly ineffecient. Just this year, type 2 diabetes was linked to the metabolic system and accepted in generally all medical journals, and studies have started not to determine <if> the metabolic dysfunction caused by nicotine increases the chance of diabetes, but by how much. With nicotine being more addicting than both cocaine and heroin due to it's profound impact on the mesombilic pathway ,the psychological risks you take when becoming addicted to something that is 100% proven to retard your brains reward system are tremendous. It alters your whole persona and transforms your way of thinking, they way you experience good things that happen in life becomes less impactful due to the retardation caused by nicotine. Basically, taking a snus is like writing a cheat code that causes you to feel good about yourself, now if you write that cheat code and have that experience 3-10 times a day, when you actually do something awesome your brain just goes "meh". Your whole way of arguing by comparing snus to anything else is warped, you should take something for what it is on itself, you shouldn't cloud your judgement based on your own extreme nicotine addiction, the simple fact is you are a different person both mentally and physically in a negative way when addicting yourself to nicotine or any drug designed to retard your reward system. And yes, alcohol should be illegal, but it will not because of the financial and cultural impact, mainly to how easy it is to produce for the general population, not because of the health risks. Apple pie is delicious. edit: Take it from someone thats "been there and done that", breaking free of a 10 year+ nictoine addiction is one of the hardest things I've had to do in life. What I got in return is a perspective on certain things that nobody can teach you. Quit while you can, the feeling nicotine gives you is replaceable by being awesome. There's no clear research on the health dangers of snus. For instance there is research that suggests that having nicotine in your body increases the risk of dying once you have a heart attack, but it doesn't increase the risk of having one. Most research has counter arguments, and it's blurry to see what the actual risks are and how big they are. Additional potential health risks (if there are any) are rather undiscovered, and there's mainly lobbying back and forth. As it's salty, it's obviously corrosive. I won't deny that, but "long term" is still quite a bloody long time we're talking about. Yeah it's not a good habit to keep throughout your life. It's quite possible you're correct with the mood approach. I haven't heard anything of that, but it makes sense. I do think you might be exaggerating the effect though. It's not like a smoker or a snuser won't ever feel a sense of accomplishment. You take it from your own experience, but there's tonnes of people who've quit with different opinions and approaches, so I'm going to take it with a grain of salt. It's obviously fairly addictive but nowhere near heroin. It doesn't give you a physical withdrawal symptoms, and there's lot's of people who just quit on a whim after several years and never thought more of it. They said they had a harder time quitting with coffee. Obviously this as well is anecdotal evidence I've gathered from my friends, but I hope it shows that there are different opinions on the matter. Maybe it's just the nicotine talking though Edit. Sorry if I came off as too aggressive. I have a bad habit of doing that in discussions. Thank you for your input, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.
Nicotine has many impacts on you, and many serious withdrawal symptoms.
I covered the way it alters your self-perception in my previous post so I'm not going to touch on that, however there
are many things snus does to the body that may not be that apparent:
Decreases the appetite and sense of taste due to the constant pH imbalance in your mouth. Food tastes MUCH worse.
Try eating an unsalted potatoe, can you even taste the flavor? The salt intake in snus users is several times higher than non-users.
Raises the blood level of blood sugar (glucose) and increases insulin production.
Increases bowel activity, saliva, and phlegm.
Increases heart rate by around 10 to 20 beats per minute. A snus in your mouth is basically like sipping coffee very slowly.
Increases blood pressure by up to 10 mmHg (because it tightens the blood vessels).
Stimulates memory and alertness. People who use tobacco often depend on it to help them accomplish certain tasks and perform well, and can't focus when their nicotine levels get too low.
Boosts mood and may even relieve minor depression.
All nicotine does is replaces vital and essential parts of your bodies functions so that you have to keep using it to feel normal. Think about that for a second, nicotine makes you feel <normal>. What if you could feel this way ALL the time + have high points that overshadow nicotine-hindered high points?
Some things will come in your way, things like anxiety, tension, restlessness, frustration and impatience.
When you stop using nicotine, its not the first day thats bad, it starts after 2-3 days and gets worse.
Common symptoms are difficulties concentrating, drowsiness, irritability and depression followed by constant headaches as your brain is suffering from extreme dopamine withdrawal.
Withdrawal can last months, and the real kicker is that when withdrawal ends, EVERY time you chew, drink or stimulate saliva in any way shape or form you are instantly suffering from the urge to get some nicotine. This can last for over a year, and it sucks some serious ass, especially if you like panfried(caramelized) food(meat).
Most of these things are, generally speaking, not good for your health, no matter how you look at it. Heart attack and cancer are not the only relevant situations to discuss when talking about nicotine, as the media would want you to know. Nothing is set in stone, the oldest woman alive smoked for 80 years, that doesn't prove or disprove anything. MC winning a PvZ with Immortal Sentry doesn't mean PvZ is not forever broken- it's all about the likelyhood.
But risking your life and well being, the limited time you have with loved ones and to chase your dreams, just to replace a function in your brain that you already have- disagree all you want, it took me 10 years of smoking half a pack a day to realize how fucking retarded it is, I can only offer you my insights and wish you the best of luck to come to that realization faster than me.
http://www1.umn.edu/perio/tobacco/nicaddct.html gives some non-biased information on some of the points I bring up, for anyone that wants to see some source.
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Logical: Just saying "snus is better than cigarettes" is not an argument for snus. It's still a negative addition to anyone's life.
Opinion: It smells like shit (worse than cigarettes) and you can tell almost instantly if someone you meet uses snus, either by their breath or their teeth. It would be a blight on the world for more people to use snus for sure, but maybe it's fine if the only new users would be ex-smokers. I have a hard time believing that, though. We shouldn't increase availability/production of harmful substances, we should decrease it.
Sociological: Just to add some facts about snus for people not from Sweden. Snus contra cigarettes you'll find more snus in rural areas and more cigarettes in urban areas. Also you will find more snus in lower socio-economic status coterie and you'll find more cigarettes in higher socio-economic status coteries. So, in Sweden snus vs. cigarettes is not only a question of health, it's also a question of class and regionality.
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More than half the people I normally hang around use Snus, and there is no way even half of them again would smoke. Its great if some people manage to quit smoking because of snus, but I don't think thats the reason why most snusers snus.
Also there hasn't been much research regarding snus' impact on your health, people thought smoking was ok a few decades ago.
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I have myself never used either cigarettes or snus so I guess I'm pretty objective about it, and smoking smells far worse than snus does. While the smell from snus isn't exactly pleasant, it's not horrible and you can only smell it when people either put it into or takes it out of their mouth. Compare this to the time the average smoker spends smoking per day, and the smell from it, aswell as the knowledge that smoking badly hurts everyone around the smoker.
With this said, I wouldn't protest on a future complete ban on cigarettes once the amount of smokers gets low enough to make it possible, but banning snus is pretty silly. If EU seriously pursues a ban, the swedish support for EU gonna go from low to minimal, and I'm not sure we would be able to remain in the EU in that case, that's how big this stuff is in Sweden.
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On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds.
Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though!
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On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful.
There's plenty of research on what chewing tobacco does to you...
I used to smoke and did the lip too and 5 years after quitting my lungs are completely fine yet my gums sometimes get sore and have receded around some teeth. Any dentist will lecture you on the possible complications.
Of course, you can choose to be a stubborn sheep just to justify your shitty habit - that's your right. Just don't claim something that makes 0 sense.
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On October 23 2012 07:09 NoobSkills wrote:
Isn't this just another EU ploy to get $? Similar to Microsoft cases and other big company cases. They want to charge them $ because the economy is in a weakened state. The only issue is that these companies are doing a job if they want to raise the taxes on them I'm all for it, but making up a bullshit court case to get cash wastes the company's money on lawyers and it is time consuming for the company rather than just charge them in taxes.
Are you trying to be funny? Otherwise I think you need to read up on these cases. They wouldnt have made any money if only the companies complied with the directions they were given. As for the snus case, you care to elaborate how they would make money from banning it ?
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I think you're under representing the danger of snus to health.
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On October 23 2012 08:20 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds. Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though!
Haha, the plexiglass is just an urban legend. :D
The traditional paperboard bottomed can has a thin layer of food grade paraffin wax to keep the snus fresh. It can get mixed in the snus and look like small pieces of glass (which is the version I heard as a child).
+ Show Spoiler +Or maybe the wax is the legend. dramaticsquirrel.gif
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On October 23 2012 08:44 AlternativeEgo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 08:20 blomsterjohn wrote:On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds. Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though! Haha, the plexiglass is just an urban legend. :D The traditional paperboard bottomed can has a thin layer of food grade paraffin wax to keep the snus fresh. It can get mixed in the snus and look like small pieces of glass (which is the version I heard as a child). + Show Spoiler +Or maybe the wax is the legend. dramaticsquirrel.gif
eheh pretty much figured, this motivated me to do a quick scholar search
...In contrast to the most common form of SFT in the United States, moist snuff, the Swedish snus is not fermented and it is more or less sterilized before packaging by heat treatment. Even among different types of SFT products manufactured in Europe and the United States the risk of oral, pharyngeal and larynx cancer vary among reports and products. In a recent meta-analysis the highest risk was associated with use of dry snuff and the lowest with moist snuff, the latter apparently carrying no detectable increase in risk [6]. The safety data summarized briefly below pertain only to the Swedish product snus.
Cancer
Two case–control studies have investigated the risk of oral cancer in Swedish snus users [7,8]. In both studies snus found no increased risk of oral cancer while smoking and alcohol were associated with increased risk. In fact, the incidence of oral cancer in Sweden is among the lowest in Europe [9]. Lagergren et al. [10] found heavy smoking but not snus use to be associated with gastric carcinoma and oesophageal carcinoma. Similarly, Ye et al. [11] found no increased risk for gastric cancer among snus users. In two other studies analysing cancer at all sites no increased risk among snus users was found compared with non-tobacco users [12,13].
Cardiovascular risk
In a Swedish cohort study of construction workers carried out during the 1970s it was found that snus users had an increased risk of dying from cardiovascular disease, although the risk was lower than in cigarette smokers [12]. In the WHO cardiovascular risk factor project in northern Sweden two case–control studies investigated whether snus use was associated with myocardial infarction. No such increased risk for myocardial infarction could be observed [14,15]. From the many studies on the effect of snus on cardiovascular risk factors it seems that the risk factor profile of snus users is closer to non-tobacco users than to smokers [16–20]. With other disorders much less is known, but there are some data suggesting that snus use can lead to increased risk of type 2 diabetes [21].
In summary, it seems clear that while smoking tobacco is the skyscraper in terms of health risks the use of snus, although not risk-free, is a two-storey building and on a par with risks from many other unhealthy habits or products.
p 1192
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United States42076 Posts
On October 23 2012 05:25 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:17 KwarK wrote:On October 23 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:On October 23 2012 04:22 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:17 heliusx wrote:On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned? And because his friend is too dumb to limit his intake or stop when it begins to cause obvious damage. My thoughts are that if you wanna fuck up your body (Alcohol does it too, are we going to enter prohibition again?) then be my guest. I don't think anyone should push their views on others, especially if it's causing no harm (direct or indirect) to anyone else, that's morally presumptuous. Oh shit. Well, someone's gotta do it, again. The problem isn't that it hurts your body, you can jump off a goddamn cliff if you want, and be kind enough to die. The problem is that with universal healthcare everyone has to pay for your stupidity. Not actually true. It works out that with universal healthcare plus social security it's cheaper to have people smoke themselves to death. It's not like only people with risky lifestyles die, everyone dies, the difference is that the long healthcare costs of smokers and drinkers happen around the same time they stop working whereas the morally superior healthy people claim pensions, spend years with their great grandchildren and eventually require hospice/full time care before they get some other type of cancer. source please
This article includes references to many studies looking at this.
http://joedawson.org/Interests/SmokersRights/Essays/issues2.html
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On October 23 2012 08:20 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds. Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though!
Also, while both are bad, i'd prefer to have teeth removed to cancer any day. Not that i want any of those two things to happen.
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I've heard (more like read in on newssites and cant be bothered to look for a source) rumors about the EUs determination to ban snus (recently with the flavored tobacco) is linked with the nicotine chewinggum lobbyists. Wasnt it banned in Denmark really recently due to this or some other reason?
Kinda weird that the guy wasnt jailed or something. I mean he was so closely linked to the bribery that he was forced to step down.
Tried it once, tasted really good to my suprise, but was otherwise kinda pointless.
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On October 23 2012 08:20 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds. Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though!
Well, the damage to the jaw and teeth is common knowledge, it happens with all oral tobacco products.
"People who use Swedish moist snuff (snus) run twice the risk of developing cancer of the pancreas"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070510095314.htm
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Well the bribery kind of sets their attempts quite a bit back, wouldn't you agree? No, snus isn't a dangerous drug, but if you don't believe me, look at this large sum of money and reconsider!
OP is a little skewed. So many addicts (food, tobacco, television, any addiction) justify their usage by comparing it to something worse. However, he has the right to do this, because of how Western nations selectively ban "bad" things, and leave others uninhibited. If governments actually cared about our health, cigarettes would be illegal. If governments actually cared about or safety, alcohol would probably be illegal, at least in the States, where the drinking culture is pretty bad and the emphasis on violence and driving is deeply engrained into our history. So, you kind of get the double-standard criticism from people like the OP: why can [an EU guy] smoke but not snus? As with any ruling entity, the correct answer is, "because the lobbyists I said so"
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On October 23 2012 10:22 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 08:20 blomsterjohn wrote:On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds. Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though! Well, the damage to the jaw and teeth is common knowledge, it happens with all oral tobacco products. "People who use Swedish moist snuff (snus) run twice the risk of developing cancer of the pancreas" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070510095314.htm
It may just as easily be your mother talking for all that I know. I, too, have friends who have been snusing for a long time , however while maintaining hygienic dental health. Does that really prove anything? of course not.
But regardless, what you say there is pretty far from "having your jaw or teeth removed"
Moreover, your "twice the risk" must be taken in context of the numbers we are talking about here, from the report you cites:
The main contribution of the new study is its conclusion that Swedish moist snus can be carcinogenic. However, the study also shows that the risks for users are small, and, as far as can be judged, much smaller than the risks associated with smoking.
"If 10,000 non-smoking snus users are monitored for ten years, according to our data, eight or nine of them will develop pancreatic cancer, as opposed to four amongst those who use neither product. But 9,991 won't, so the odds aren't that bad"
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On October 23 2012 11:25 blomsterjohn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:22 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 08:20 blomsterjohn wrote:On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds. Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though! Well, the damage to the jaw and teeth is common knowledge, it happens with all oral tobacco products. "People who use Swedish moist snuff (snus) run twice the risk of developing cancer of the pancreas" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070510095314.htm It may just as easily be your mother talking for all that I know. I, too, have friends who have been snusing for a long time , however while maintaining hygienic dental health. Does that really prove anything? of course not. But regardless, what you say there is pretty far from "having your jaw or teeth removed" Moreover, your "twice the risk" must be taken in context of the numbers we are talking about here, from the report you cites: Show nested quote +The main contribution of the new study is its conclusion that Swedish moist snus can be carcinogenic. However, the study also shows that the risks for users are small, and, as far as can be judged, much smaller than the risks associated with smoking.
"If 10,000 non-smoking snus users are monitored for ten years, according to our data, eight or nine of them will develop pancreatic cancer, as opposed to four amongst those who use neither product. But 9,991 won't, so the odds aren't that bad"
I have no idea why you brought my mother into this...
So you think that having products that are addictive on the market is a good thing? I certainly don't, which is why I'm hoping cigarettes are banned soon as well.
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This whole prohibition thing is completley stupid. Make it legal, be open about its dangers, put warnings on the products, educate the population from a young age about the health issues that come with it. If after this they still decide to consume such product there is nothing you can do about it, you cant restrain free will, and an adult knows what he is going into.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.petamayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/snus1.jpg)
