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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
sure, inform me of that, because that would make me feel better about the situation. they seem to be counterprotests though.
however, the lack of any liberal theory in the state controlled media system, be it schools or teevee, is still a big concern.
the communist party ratio is a more complicated matter. it's more highly sought after by certain segments of the population, and is rationed out like a good.
i base a lot of this on internet comments on news articles on major portal sites.
the top commented article concerns japan asking for reparations for stores getting smashed by rioters presumably acting in nationalistic fervor.
http://comment5.news.qq.com/comment.htm?site=news&id=33081771
and of the top comments, 9 are basically saying fuck the japanese. 1 is an advertisement for a porn site.
the top comment with 56255 upvotes, in particular, says,
"[the question of reparations] must be answered by the 300000 souls who perished in Nanking; victims of the massacre in Lushun; bombing victims of Chongqing; and the 35 million Chinese who perished in the resistance war. It must be answered by the 1.3 billion people in China. If this unrepentant, shameless garbage race is not utterly destroyed, then there is no justice in the world."
这个要问问南京大屠杀遇难的30万同胞的冤魂愿不愿意；旅顺大屠杀的同胞冤魂愿不愿意；重庆大轰炸遇难同胞愿不愿意；在抗战中遇难的3500万中国人愿不愿意；全体13亿中国人愿不愿意。这个死不改悔、死不要脸的垃圾民族不灭，天理难容！
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I can't believe chinese are still arguing over a stupid rock in the middle of the ocean. You can't even live on it and the oil reserves arent confirmed. This anti-Japanese sentiment is so annoying, it's just because WWII isnt 100 years ago that people are still arguing about this. My classmates all hate on Japan because they've been taught that Japan is bad despite them driving Lexus/Toyota vehicles and using Sony laptops and eating sushi.
In 50 years time people will barely remember the details of the war just like how we've forgotten about the details in the american revolution and the rule of the mongolians.
“Our generation is not wise enough to find a common language on this question, our next generation will certainly be wiser. They will certainly find a solution acceptable to all.” Deng Xiaoping
He was most definitely wrong, the new generation is just more angry and spiteful.
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On September 20 2012 03:26 oneofthem wrote:
sure, inform me of that, because that would make me feel better about the situation. they seem to be counterprotests though.
however, the lack of any liberal theory in the state controlled media system, be it schools or teevee, is still a big concern.
the communist party ratio is a more complicated matter though. it's more highly sought after by certain segments of the population, and is rationed out like a good.
So you admit you aren't informed yet you make wild accusations. Apologize for comparing Chinese people to Child soldiers who also can't form coherent opinions about nationalism or their own government, the burden of proof when you make accusations should be on you the accuser, not me. Christ.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i will not apologize. this is what i see, and i will ask you to show the preponderance of these counter-protest sentiments given the widespread and dramatic nature of the other side, which i see plenty of.
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China should be utterly ashamed and disgraced of themselves. Utterly deplorable behavior, befitting of a truly 3rd world country indeed
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On September 20 2012 03:26 oneofthem wrote:http://comment5.news.qq.com/comment.htm?site=news&id=33081771and of the top comments, 9 are basically saying fuck the japanese. 1 is an advertisement for a porn site. the top comment with 56255 upvotes, in particular, says, "[the question of reparations] must be answered by the 300000 souls who perished in Nanking; victims of the massacre in Lushun; bombing victims of Chongqing; and the 35 million Chinese who perished in the resistance war. It must be answered by the 1.3 billion people in China. If this unrepentant, shameless garbage race is not utterly destroyed, then there is no justice in the world." 这个要问问南京大屠杀遇难的30万同胞的冤魂愿不愿意；旅顺大屠杀的同胞冤魂愿不愿意；重庆大轰炸遇难同胞愿不愿意；在抗战中遇难的3500万中国人愿不愿意；全体13亿中国人愿不愿意。这个死不改悔、死不要脸的垃圾民族不灭，天理难容！
Really now? You are going to base your accusation on internet comments on websites where no moderation on voting, repeat ips / votes or quality is enforced? Would I base my view of the American people on the number of likes a view has on a internet forum? Get off it.
Even if every single upvote is from a different person and representative of nationalist views. That's what, 56255 people out of 1.3+ billion. Okay.jpg
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's not just that one example, the op gives more examples. although 56k votes is really good. i also do not see how unmoderated is a bad thing as far as fair sample is concerned.
the fact of the matter is, although you may deny it based on your work in a dissenter organization, the majority is in the grips of rather blind nationalistic hatred. and they see nothing improper about it.
Even if every single upvote is from a different person and representative of nationalist views. That's what, 56255 people out of 1.3+ billion. Okay.jpg
now that's a bit silly. the number of votes on that site rarely reach that high. (although, to be fair, in more ordinary times the stories getting most of the votes are those exposing government evils)
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On September 20 2012 03:32 Liph wrote:
China should be utterly ashamed and disgraced of themselves. Utterly deplorable behavior, befitting of a truly 3rd world country indeed
We are, the majority of people are face-palming, you don't hear about them because they are the silent majority and they don't make interesting sensationalist stories.
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On September 20 2012 03:44 oneofthem wrote:
it's not just that one example, although 56k votes is really good. i also do not see how unmoderated is a bad thing as far as fair sample is concerned.
the fact of the matter is, although you may deny it based on your work in a dissenter organization, the majority is in the grips of rather blind nationalistic hatred. and they see nothing improper about it.
You have provided ZERO proof that the majority is "in the grips of a blind nationalist hatred". I have provided statistical, anecdotal, and logical proof other wise which you can fact check by using the internet and scholarly sources. Apparently the views of the people of China don't matter when you are talking about the views of China.
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On September 20 2012 03:28 Mykill wrote:
I can't believe chinese are still arguing over a stupid rock in the middle of the ocean. You can't even live on it and the oil reserves arent confirmed. This anti-Japanese sentiment is so annoying, it's just because WWII isnt 100 years ago that people are still arguing about this. My classmates all hate on Japan because they've been taught that Japan is bad despite them driving Lexus/Toyota vehicles and using Sony laptops and eating sushi.
In 50 years time people will barely remember the details of the war just like how we've forgotten about the details in the american revolution and the rule of the mongolians.
“Our generation is not wise enough to find a common language on this question, our next generation will certainly be wiser. They will certainly find a solution acceptable to all.” Deng Xiaoping
He was most definitely wrong, the new generation is just more angry and spiteful.
It is not just a stupid rock. This is a very serious national sovereignty issue for both Japan and China. Annoying anti-Japanese sentiment? lol i bet it was probably mildly annoying for the girls who were raped, impregnated, infected with disease and then vivisected.
But hey somehow having Japanese products means you can't have grievances about unacknowledged war time atrocities.
You have absolutely no sense of perspective. Your opinions on this topic are without merit.
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On September 20 2012 02:14 []Phase[] wrote:
Tribalism or nationalism, however you want to call it : its not because its natural, that its good. its not because it protected man in the early days, that it still fits in todays society. There is nothing wrong with protecting the people around you, there is however with using irrational violence against other groups in modern day society. We DO have to be the judge sometimes.
Nationalism in East Asia is a direct product of their contact with Western cultures. It was revealed in the 19th-20th centuries that nationalism was a superior form of political / social organization than feudalism, which was the standard in Asia before the rise of nationalism, due to its ability to mobilize a larger amount of people towards interstate competition. Nationalism today continues to serve that cause, both in East Asia and the rest of the world.
Nationalism is an extension of tribalism, but no one has asked why the extension happened. My view is that the move towards bigger units of social organization than tribes - in this case, nations, but also including kingdoms and empires - is driven by inter-group competition. Smaller tribes are out-competed by bigger tribes due to the greater amount of resources available to the latter. But the classic obstacle to forming bigger tribes was the organizational overhead - it was harder to foster communication and coordination when the tribe was bigger. This is why previous attempts at 'bigger tribes' - ie kingdoms and empires - were never able to fully leverage their size advantage.
With the rise of mass communication, however, the organization overhead was mitigated. Nationalism, achieved through mass communication, is the culmination of tribalism en masse, and its ability to direct a large body of people towards a single purpose was unprecedented. In practice, Japan was able to rapidly modernize and out-compete other East Asian states by the institutionalization of a very virulent form of nationalism - fascism, which allowed Japan to mobilize its entire population towards the cause of nation-building and, subsequently, imperial expansion.
Other East Asian states followed suit by implementing their own forms of nationalism. In this they were simply responding to an existential crisis - become a nation-state, or die. Nation-states have a fundamental competitive advantage vis-a-vis older forms of political / social organization, and this is why nationalism has swept the globe. We speak of a post-national future only with the knowledge that we are already at the stage of nations - and without knowing whether there is a way forward.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 20 2012 03:46 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 03:44 oneofthem wrote:
it's not just that one example, although 56k votes is really good. i also do not see how unmoderated is a bad thing as far as fair sample is concerned.
the fact of the matter is, although you may deny it based on your work in a dissenter organization, the majority is in the grips of rather blind nationalistic hatred. and they see nothing improper about it. You have provided ZERO proof that the majority is "in the grips of a blind nationalist hatred". I have provided statistical, anecdotal, and logical proof other wise which you can fact check by using the internet and scholarly sources. Apparently the views of the people of China don't matter when you are talking about the views of China.
the only statistic i've seen is the decline in party membership, which is no indicator at all about the status of nationalism. if you want to do a nationwide poll of something like "if japan was wiped off of the map, would you be for it" how do you think it would go?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 20 2012 03:47 Azarkon wrote:Other East Asian states followed suit by implementing their own forms of nationalism. In this they were simply responding to an existential crisis - become a nation-state, or die. Nation-states have a fundamental competitive advantage vis-a-vis older forms of political / social organization, and this is why virtually nationalism has swept the globe. We speak of a post-national future only with the knowledge that we are already at the stage of nations - and without knowing whether there is a way forward.
they didn't implement any of it. it's not a top down directive, but an easily accessible mode of group representation playing into already existing group boundaries. it's not some grand strategy, nor should its advantageous in-group characteristics be any sort of justification. you've completely failed to address that guy's point, which is that you have the independent power of judgement apart from 'culture' or structure.
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On September 20 2012 03:10 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 03:01 Acertos wrote:
Hmm, i would say that most people that were born/ dont have foreign origins in a country will be nationalist unless they have a good education and can develop a relatively high sense of critisism (by knowing the history of ur country, what most nationalist lack). U can also develop this by going in other countries and discovering different styles of life, encountering misery also help. This nationalist feeling is even more present in developing countries, even more in countries like China without any politics groups and nobody to criticize the government. Obviously most of the people will believe whats in front of them and wont bother to search for the truth, similar to islamic extremist enraging and generating hate between people for retarded reasons ! Problem with this hypothesis is that this Generation (people who are 12-25 right now) have international context and are socially aware and thus do not simply take what's infront of them for granted. Where as the previous generation (people who are 40-50) have gone through the events of the cultural revolution, the famines, and so on and don't buy that crap from the government any more. The only demographic which this applies to in China is uneducated people in poverty with no means of understanding or communicating with the outside world.
Its not because ur socialy aware that u are right. For the most part young people have retarded ideas about politics because they dont give a shit about it. They dont go outside of their country and if they do, its not far. I talked to you about good education and sense of critisism, obviously most of my friends dont have it and im sure 95% of the people smashing shop and car from japanese brand in china dont too. Having a sense of critisism would be manifesting for better conditions and a new constitution and not playing in the hands of greedy bastards. I would have exepted an oposition to this, a reason to manifest against a dictature
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
btw, just in case those posts were made by government employed propagandeers, i checked the guy who made the top rated comment, the one about wiping out japan.
most of her comments are protesting domestic government activities, often in very strong terms. it seems that, yes, anti-government sentiment can co-exist with rather hateful nationalism.
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On September 20 2012 03:52 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 03:47 Azarkon wrote:some guy with a very sensible post Other East Asian states followed suit by implementing their own forms of nationalism. In this they were simply responding to an existential crisis - become a nation-state, or die. Nation-states have a fundamental competitive advantage vis-a-vis older forms of political / social organization, and this is why virtually nationalism has swept the globe. We speak of a post-national future only with the knowledge that we are already at the stage of nations - and without knowing whether there is a way forward. they didn't implement any of it. it's not a top down directive, but an easily accessible mode of group representation playing into already existing group boundaries. it's not some grand strategy, nor should its advantageous in-group characteristics be any sort of justification. you've completely failed to address that guy's point, which is that you have the independent power of judgement apart from 'culture' or structure.
You do not. Moral systems are fundamentally cultural, though there are features that are shared between cultures. It is only the global hegemony of Western culture in recent history that has caused people to believe that there is 'objective morality.'
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 20 2012 04:02 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 03:52 oneofthem wrote:On September 20 2012 03:47 Azarkon wrote:some guy with a very sensible post Other East Asian states followed suit by implementing their own forms of nationalism. In this they were simply responding to an existential crisis - become a nation-state, or die. Nation-states have a fundamental competitive advantage vis-a-vis older forms of political / social organization, and this is why virtually nationalism has swept the globe. We speak of a post-national future only with the knowledge that we are already at the stage of nations - and without knowing whether there is a way forward. they didn't implement any of it. it's not a top down directive, but an easily accessible mode of group representation playing into already existing group boundaries. it's not some grand strategy, nor should its advantageous in-group characteristics be any sort of justification. you've completely failed to address that guy's point, which is that you have the independent power of judgement apart from 'culture' or structure. You do not. Moral systems are fundamentally cultural, though there are features that are shared between cultures. It is only the general hegemony of Western culture in recent history that has caused people to believe that there is 'objective morality.'
the question is not whether you are not in a culture etc, but whether you can represent yourself. what makes criticism valid is not its independence but the self representation faculty, as well as the fact that you are indeed in this world. yes, you've got the capacity to perform a moral evaluation, but also the capacity to represeent that fact and examine it with a different system.
this is high level special tactics so it's ok if you don't understand.
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I realize I'm wasting my time with this conversation so I will just move on and apologize for wasting everyone's time with derailing tripe, sorry. You have google and resources since you are posting on the internet, look facts up yourself and form your own opinions. I will just update news articles instead.
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On September 20 2012 04:05 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 04:02 Azarkon wrote:On September 20 2012 03:52 oneofthem wrote:On September 20 2012 03:47 Azarkon wrote:some guy with a very sensible post Other East Asian states followed suit by implementing their own forms of nationalism. In this they were simply responding to an existential crisis - become a nation-state, or die. Nation-states have a fundamental competitive advantage vis-a-vis older forms of political / social organization, and this is why virtually nationalism has swept the globe. We speak of a post-national future only with the knowledge that we are already at the stage of nations - and without knowing whether there is a way forward. they didn't implement any of it. it's not a top down directive, but an easily accessible mode of group representation playing into already existing group boundaries. it's not some grand strategy, nor should its advantageous in-group characteristics be any sort of justification. you've completely failed to address that guy's point, which is that you have the independent power of judgement apart from 'culture' or structure. You do not. Moral systems are fundamentally cultural, though there are features that are shared between cultures. It is only the general hegemony of Western culture in recent history that has caused people to believe that there is 'objective morality.' the question is not whether you are NOT that, but whether you can represent yourself. you've got the capacity to perform a moral evaluation, but also the capacity to represeent that fact and examine it with a different system. this is high level special tactics so it's ok if you don't understand.
No, high level understanding requires the recognition that whatever personal judgment you render is fundamentally shaped by the culture and environment around you. Every one of us is able to produce a 'gut feeling' level judgment of a specific event. To know where that 'gut feeling' comes from is the difficult task.
All moral evaluations come down to 'gut feelings' for the average person. Yet that 'gut feeling' is shaped by the societies and environments in which they were raised.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
good luck with your work in dissenter organizations.
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EPT
