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Lance Armstrong to lose Titles, Banned - Page 35

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Hanakurena
Profile Joined August 2012
105 Posts
August 26 2012 12:55 GMT
#681
It is only the non-cycling fans that defend people like Armstorng and Contador.

'real' cycling fans don't care who wins or who loses and realize the sport is corrupted.

But why limit it to cycling? What sport is the exception? It's just that in cycling you are more likely to get caught. You really think Nadal will ever get caught?
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
August 26 2012 12:56 GMT
#682
Why haven't mods closed this thread already?

USADA has no real jurisdiction because it's basically a bullshit organization. The UCI doesn't recognize them so Armstrong isn't even being stripped of anything... and to top it off their evidence is terrible.

Sure, he may have doped, but the topic is about the USADA stripping him of his titles because of their evidence and eyewittness accounts that he doped... Seriously, how on Earth this piece of shit of a EU vs USA thread came to existence or is still going strong is beyond me.
A time to live.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8226 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 13:05:41
August 26 2012 12:57 GMT
#683
On August 26 2012 20:59 Wyvernspur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 19:49 kwizach wrote:
On August 26 2012 19:41 KingAce wrote:
This almost sounds like another EU vs NA thing. I don't really care about what happened in the past, just prove it in a court of law. If you can't, leave the man alone.

The only reason they can't is Armstrong stopped fighting precisely to avoid going to court. The evidence is there.


Except that Armstrong wasn't being taken to court. The arbitration process of the USADA only requires prosecutors to establish an athlete's guilt "to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing body", which is defined as "greater than a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt". I can understand why he would hesitate to participate in a 'trial' where (for example) '60% guilt' is sufficient for the judge/jury to pass a guilty verdict.

Thing is that in America most trials end up with financial agreement anyway, since you can basically buy justice if you are wealthy enough. Just remember Michael fucking Jackson. This is whaat has happened with Armstrong and that's how he has been able to avoid Justice.

Armstrong had very good lawyers, but the reason he stopped fighting is that by suing USADA, he had to swear in front of the Grand Jury. Since he has political ambition (he always said he wanted to become Governor of Texas - and maybe even president one day), lying to a Grand Jury is not the thing to do, especially in a lost cause.

Now, if you hear Armstrong declaration, he always claimed that "he had never been controlled positive". He doesn't say that he didn't use dopping, for the exact same reason. He doesn't want to lie, because lying in America is basically worse than doing what you lie about in terms of public image and political possibilities (again, remember the Monicagate: nobody gave a fuck about the fact Clinton got a blowjob, the real business was that he had lied about it)

Here are the sources, in French unfortunately:
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2012/08/24/armstrong-ne-s-est-pas-contente-de-tricher-il-s-est-comporte-en-parrain-du-peloton_1751181_3242.html
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Hanakurena
Profile Joined August 2012
105 Posts
August 26 2012 13:01 GMT
#684
Why haven't mods banned people spouting nonsense and lies over and over yet?

I remember Armstrong when he won the world title and when he passed the finish line with his whole team when one of their riders crashed to death the day before.
Many of you not only are way way too young, but don't even follow cycling period. Don't listen to what Nike and Livestrong and their allies put out.

Go read this:
http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/30172302298/its-not-about-the-bike
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8226 Posts
August 26 2012 13:04 GMT
#685
On August 26 2012 21:55 Hanakurena wrote:
It is only the non-cycling fans that defend people like Armstorng and Contador.

'real' cycling fans don't care who wins or who loses and realize the sport is corrupted.

But why limit it to cycling? What sport is the exception? It's just that in cycling you are more likely to get caught. You really think Nadal will ever get caught?

I know there are suspicions, but really for Nadal there is no evidence whatsoever.

Everybody knows that Armstrong was dopped to death. It has been proven scientifically: read the work of Antoine Vayer, who demonstrated the power in watts deployed by Armstrong was beyond what any human can normally do. Plus the dozens of witnesses. Plus the positive tests. Plus his thugish methods to intimidate people without ever have to face a tribunal.

Remember that when l'Equipe said in 2005 that Armstrong was dopped, he sued them... and then retracted, because he didn't want to confront in court. Because the day he was in front of a court with all witnesses etc, he was basically dead.

When someone comes with an evidence that Nadal is dopped, I think things will change quite a lot in tennis. For now, the only thing is that his muscular mass has grown during the off season. It's weird, but that's really not enough.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
CursedRich
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom737 Posts
August 26 2012 13:17 GMT
#686
On August 26 2012 16:53 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
There was an extremely well written writeup in defense of Lance Armstrong here: http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/yqer4/usada_to_ban_lance_armstrong_for_life_strip_tour/c5xzfwx

Some key points:

The ridiculous ease in which proceedings can be started against anyone:
Show nested quote +
Also the UCI (International Cycling Union) disagrees with USADA, and it's only because of some very poorly-thought-out reciprocal agreements that this can even happen.
Basically WADA has agreements with the major sports bodies, but then ALSO gave all its "franchises" (each country's __ADA) its same powers, meaning that ANY franchisee in ANY country can start proceedings against anyone anywhere, regardless of their ability to defend themselves in that venue.


A clear vendetta by the head of the organization accusing Lance.
Show nested quote +
And yes, "franchise" is correct because this operation was run not by some officer of the law, but the CEO of USADA. Travis Tygart has had it in for Lance for a long time; when Floyd Landis was busted, Tygart offered him a sweet deal if he would dish dirt on Lance.

The Department of Justice actually ran a Grand Jury investigation for 2 years before dropping the case in February -- apparently, someone eventually realized that winning the first 6 tours in a row for the US Postal Service wasn't "defrauding" them of their sponsorship dollars. Some of the people called to testify are still active riders in the pro peloton, which are presumably in the "10+ witnesses" Tygart would call on, which means he didn't care about ACTIVE riders who were part of the same alleged doping ring; he just cared about trying to destroy public opinion about Lance, who was retired from cycling and last won in 2005.

...

But USADA is now trying to ban the director of Lance's team, who ISN'T an admitted doper, solely because of his connection to Lance. Tygart wants to claim it was a conspiracy and the whole team was doped up, yet curiously is not trying to stop any of the OTHER ex-teammate riders he claims were cheating just like Lance, and who are still competing, presumably in exchange for their testimony.

This seemingly violates USADA's charter, as it is charged with stopping doping, yet is letting CURRENT riders continue on just to nail someone who RETIRED from cycling and last won 7 years ago.


The absurd unfairness of the actual process.
Show nested quote +
Lance didn't have the option of a trial, only binding arbitration with a 3-person panel. Binding arbitration is bad enough for your cell phone contract, but imagine it applying to your job -- and not just to your current job, but a LIFETIME ban on working at all in your entire field.

And even if you win, it's not until after USADA has dragged your name through the mud, issues press releases about their allegations, makes false claims, and then publishes a report with all the allegations and dirt to further hurt your public image, and nothing prevents them from doing it all again later. (One of USADA's pieces of "evidence" was the biological passport values from the 2009-2010 comeback which fluctuated, which an expert in a Cycling News report already said could fluctuate from either doping OR natural causes; but USADA trumpeted that it automatically meant cheating. It's pre-trial by Press Release, without expert testimony.)


The so-called "evidence" against Lance is bunk, too.
Show nested quote +
Besides the two expected witnesses who perjured themselves so badly that they would be completely unusable in an actual courtroom (Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton), another of the pieces of so-called "evidence" that Tygart wanted to use was 6 urine samples from the 1999 Tour de France, a case which had already been investigated by the UCI's own appointee, and it EXONERATED Lance. The investigator was the director of the Netherlands national anti-doping organization, and wrote in his exhaustive, 132-page report:
the failure of the underlying research to comply with any applicable standard and the deficiencies in the report render it completely irresponsible for anyone involved in doping control testing to even suggest that the analyses results that were reported constitute evidence of anything.

(p. 17) PDF link: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news/2006/jun06/vrijmanreport.pdf
It was an epic beatdown. WADA screamed bloody murder, even though under their own regulations, they had stored the samples under the agreement they would never be used for sanctions of any kind!
Since the samples were EXPLICITLY not to be used for sanctions, they didn't follow the chain-of-custody regulations, were NOT anonymous, and sat in a freezer for 6 years that was accessible like any other research materials to any number of people.
Chain of custody is ESSENTIAL to handling samples, and it is already established in every context that a broken chain of custody equals completely worthless non-evidence.


And even then, those samples were under the control of those biased against Lance
Show nested quote +
Moreover, the French national anti-doping lab in question regularly leaks its findings to the French paper L'Equipe, which has a notorious anti-Lance POV (they really didn't like him winning their tour every single year).
This would be something like if you went for a drug test for your job, and before anyone else got the official results, your worst enemy on Facebook posted the "results" given to him from his buddy at the lab that coincidentally showed you used certain substances that were also sitting in the lab research supplies. Let's see, people with a motive and a grudge who have access to your samples with no chain of custody and know exactly which samples are yours and suddenly find a "positive" years after the fact?


In the end, pointless for Lance to fight:
Show nested quote +
The whole process is the definition of a kangaroo court. The anti-doping agencies ONLY get clout and increase their budgets by busting people; if busts don't happen, people will begin wondering what the point of the doping agencies IS, exactly. There's no bigger fish than Lance, so CEO Tygart is probably counting on a big fat funding increase next year based on being able to abuse power like this

...

Contrary to the assertion that Lance "accepted" USADA's decision, he instead refused to go into binding arbitration with Travis Tygart, refusing to acknowledge the CEO of USADA's personal vendetta as legitimate. Both Lance and the UCI agree that the UCI is the only legitimate party with jurisdiction, as the UCI has announced publicly.


Wow very biased piece but to be expected that there will be lots of pro Lance crap as there has been fr the last 20 years and lots of people will look stupid and corrupt so they will go down fighting
Chill Winston......
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
August 26 2012 13:58 GMT
#687
On August 26 2012 02:36 L3g3nd_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 01:26 [F_]aths wrote:
On August 24 2012 14:37 darthfoley wrote:
this infuriates me so fucking much.

how many fucking tests do you have to pass under the most INTENSE scrutiny before you're fucking innocent?

of course he's tired of fighting bullshit claims by floyd landis (a prick) and tyler hamilton (a double prick). USADA is a joke as is its investigation.

before retards say i'm an armstrong lover, my favorite cyclist of all time is Jan Ullrich. If that doesn't mean anything to you, then you have no right to comment on shit

Jan Ullrich comes from the same town where I am from. Still, I am not a fan because he doped. There is a story where he waited once after Armstrong fell over, he didn't use this chance to get a lead and win over Armstrong. While this shows some character, the doping does not.

thats pretty much standard for cycling, if its an important stage and the leader/high rated competitor crashes/flat tyre they will wait. Its like in football when they kick the ball to the other team after an injury.

Still I doubt Armstrong would have done the same.

But the more important thing is, that is looks like that both of them doped.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
August 26 2012 14:04 GMT
#688
Everybody saying that cycling is completely corrupt etc, are you under the impression that Bradley Wiggins is doped?
Crawler
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Estonia248 Posts
August 26 2012 14:10 GMT
#689
On August 26 2012 23:04 bardtown wrote:
Everybody saying that cycling is completely corrupt etc, are you under the impression that Bradley Wiggins is doped?


ofc they are. According to people here top 10 of every single tour de france finisher doped so yeah. He obviously didn't do any work and just doped harder than 2nd - 10th place finishers.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28929 Posts
August 26 2012 14:19 GMT
#690
On August 26 2012 23:04 bardtown wrote:
Everybody saying that cycling is completely corrupt etc, are you under the impression that Bradley Wiggins is doped?


my impression is that cycling has improved a lot over the past 3-4-5 years. and bradley wiggins might very well be clean.
Moderator
Hanakurena
Profile Joined August 2012
105 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 14:32:26
August 26 2012 14:30 GMT
#691
The blood pasport caught Armstrong in the end. That and Hincapie and others willing to tesify.
The blood pasport makes it a lot harder to dope. They have to microdose carefully and when they do it badly they only get suspicious values and the UCI tells them they are doing too much so the riders back off.

The result is that there is less pressure on riders who would like to ride clean to dope.

Also Contador got banned for 2 years. UCI and the Spanish union tried to pull a lot of corruption and cover it all up. But they failed.
Armstrong was always able to rely on UCI corruption. So it definitely seems to have lessened in that respect as well.


Top 10 tour riders are either doped or have extreme freak genetics which give them the same advantages. You can decide if Wiggins is a rare case of freak genetics or if he has some assistance.

You can win the intermediate stages with escapes in the tour clean now. You do have to be very lucky and talented, though.

And then besides doping there is match fixing...
HomeWorld
Profile Joined December 2011
Romania903 Posts
August 26 2012 14:41 GMT
#692
Suffice to say , everything that USADA did and does is pointless unless backed up by UCI. They (USADA) have no power to negate all the accomplishments that Lance Armstrong achieved so far, alone.
Until UCI decides that Lance cheated, everything that USADA does alone is like rubbing your wooden leg and hope to get tickled.
Hanakurena
Profile Joined August 2012
105 Posts
August 26 2012 14:57 GMT
#693
Armstrong was already stripped unless the UCI breaks away from WADA and then reinstate Armstrong.

If UCI breaks off from WADA it will become a 'rogue sport' and kicked from the Olympics.
fbs
Profile Joined February 2003
United Kingdom2476 Posts
August 26 2012 14:59 GMT
#694
I don't think we'll ever see the UCI with its current leadership criticise Armstrong. The UCI changed the rules right at the start of LA's second career. When Lance tested positive in 1999 for a cardio steroid that he had absolutely no right to be taking the UCI changed the rules and let his doctor back date an exemption note. This was 1999 when he cheated to his first 'victory' and this set the precedent for the years to follow.
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
August 26 2012 16:00 GMT
#695
On August 26 2012 23:04 bardtown wrote:
Everybody saying that cycling is completely corrupt etc, are you under the impression that Bradley Wiggins is doped?

Honestly, if anybody was clean it would probably be him. I'm not the most optimistic cycling fan either.
BlACKTrA
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany187 Posts
August 26 2012 16:07 GMT
#696
A remote relative of mine is cycling in the national german league ,
with the best riders of germany and he had an offer from a pro
team but he declined because they said he has to do "more" than just training to become a pro [because one cant
reach their level by training]
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
August 26 2012 16:15 GMT
#697
On August 26 2012 23:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 23:04 bardtown wrote:
Everybody saying that cycling is completely corrupt etc, are you under the impression that Bradley Wiggins is doped?


my impression is that cycling has improved a lot over the past 3-4-5 years. and bradley wiggins might very well be clean.

What about Froome ? :D
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
August 26 2012 16:39 GMT
#698
Cycling got alot cleaner, due to better methods of detection.
I doubt the culture itself did change alot, and i think cyclist are still verry likely to take doping if they think they can get away with it.

Wiggins is probably clean,though he has been around for a while and i dont know annything about his past like 5 years ago.
Also i dont realy care annymore,i love to watch cycling and follow it and when looking it on tv i dont think "hmm maybe this guy has used doping and that guy probably didnt , hmm and yeah this one used doping for sure"
I look at the scenery (wich is always lovely) and just enjoy seeing them struggle and fight.
iiGreetings
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada563 Posts
August 26 2012 17:03 GMT
#699
He ditched his appeal. That guy is a false inspiration, used to love him and watch him but now I here his name and literally want to puke. How can you feel happy winning when you cheated. Bye op needs updates because the USDA had a strong case and lots of eye witness accounts.
Adapt and React I MKP, PartinG, EffOrt ♥
Eufouria
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom4425 Posts
August 26 2012 17:10 GMT
#700
On August 26 2012 23:04 bardtown wrote:
Everybody saying that cycling is completely corrupt etc, are you under the impression that Bradley Wiggins is doped?

I think if anyone is clean it could be him, but when you look at graphic of top finishers in the tour beign busted for doping I'm not so sure.

Team Sky invests a hell of a lot in cycling and I don't think they'd be investing in doping because it would be terrible for the companies public image, so its possible that Wiggins success (and the success of the team in general) is down to them investing in other areas, sort of how the British olympic cycling teams success is in large part thanks to us investing way more into it than every other country and finding huge improvements thanks to that.
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