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On June 07 2012 12:20 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:11 Selkie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote:
I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization. To address your points: It's only some religions that have issues with gay people. Most (Roman) Catholics I know aren't bothered by it, and are even in favor of gay marriage. Upholding the ban "for religious reasons" is just as strong of an argument as taking down the ban "for religious reasons". Religion argues both ways, so that's not really a good point. As for tradition- well, sure. That is an argument. Not a great one, but an argument. I honestly don't see in what way the BSA is more than a group that does camping, and teaching of minor skills. (The badges- canoing, firestarting, etc etc etc.) How can they claim to be raising people to make ethical and moral choices when they themselves are extremely discriminatory in who they allow? How can they hold the moral high ground when they simply don't care what happens when scouts are bullying one another? Eagle scouts I haven't heard nearly as many bad things about, and anyone who does manage to achieve that, I have a wary respect for. The rest? Not so much. The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts) In anything of this nature, you are going to have dropouts. That doesn't put a bad mark on the BSA, just those who quit. you are right, many religious people don't, but the religious ideals at it's founding were this way. I suppose if the vast majority of leaders considers it the right step, then... well I don't know. it wouldn't really be the Scouts anymore. I mean the pledge mentions God, but I suppose they could allow atheists in. It is just one of those things. it's hard to argue this without getting into the bigger topic of gay rights in general (forcing Churches to hold gay weddings, photographers can't refuse to do a gay wedding, etc). They can chose, and I don't see why they NEED to do this if it is in opposition to what it was founded on. just because that was over a 100 years ago makes no difference. My arguments sound bad because I'm trying to keep this narrow.
I'm pretty sure we do, or atleast i have never heard of a scout being kicked from the organization for being a atheist.
Also i should mention that i am from the north east, and we have gotten in trouble in the past for playing fast and loose with the rules, so my experience may not be that of others involved in scouting.
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On June 07 2012 11:42 SpunXtainz wrote:
I think it is a dangerous step.
Apart from some of the other points raised here, scouts is supposed to be a masculine pasttime, where men prepare themselves for life. Allowing a feminine person to lead them...
dude wtf.
gay=/=feminine. i don't know where you got that fucking gem of an idea from.
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On June 07 2012 12:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:20 Introvert wrote:On June 07 2012 12:11 Selkie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote:
I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization. To address your points: It's only some religions that have issues with gay people. Most (Roman) Catholics I know aren't bothered by it, and are even in favor of gay marriage. Upholding the ban "for religious reasons" is just as strong of an argument as taking down the ban "for religious reasons". Religion argues both ways, so that's not really a good point. As for tradition- well, sure. That is an argument. Not a great one, but an argument. I honestly don't see in what way the BSA is more than a group that does camping, and teaching of minor skills. (The badges- canoing, firestarting, etc etc etc.) How can they claim to be raising people to make ethical and moral choices when they themselves are extremely discriminatory in who they allow? How can they hold the moral high ground when they simply don't care what happens when scouts are bullying one another? Eagle scouts I haven't heard nearly as many bad things about, and anyone who does manage to achieve that, I have a wary respect for. The rest? Not so much. The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts) In anything of this nature, you are going to have dropouts. That doesn't put a bad mark on the BSA, just those who quit. you are right, many religious people don't, but the religious ideals at it's founding were this way. I suppose if the vast majority of leaders considers it the right step, then... well I don't know. it wouldn't really be the Scouts anymore. I mean the pledge mentions God, but I suppose they could allow atheists in. It is just one of those things. it's hard to argue this without getting into the bigger topic of gay rights in general (forcing Churches to hold gay weddings, photographers can't refuse to do a gay wedding, etc). They can chose, and I don't see why they NEED to do this if it is in opposition to what it was founded on. just because that was over a 100 years ago makes no difference. My arguments sound bad because I'm trying to keep this narrow. I'm pretty sure we do, or atleast i have never heard of a scout being kicked from the organization for being a atheist.
I think if a higher-up found out, he would be obliged to remove him. However, I think most leaders nowadays wouldn't do so.
I think worse of the scouts essentially lying or saying things "they don't really mean" then the organization. It is a private, volunteer organization that does A LOT for local communities.
I'm not going to watch the video, I can't stand Penn. He's an actor that many apparently go to for knowledge, when it is often clear he has none.
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On June 07 2012 12:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:20 Introvert wrote:On June 07 2012 12:11 Selkie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote:
I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization. To address your points: It's only some religions that have issues with gay people. Most (Roman) Catholics I know aren't bothered by it, and are even in favor of gay marriage. Upholding the ban "for religious reasons" is just as strong of an argument as taking down the ban "for religious reasons". Religion argues both ways, so that's not really a good point. As for tradition- well, sure. That is an argument. Not a great one, but an argument. I honestly don't see in what way the BSA is more than a group that does camping, and teaching of minor skills. (The badges- canoing, firestarting, etc etc etc.) How can they claim to be raising people to make ethical and moral choices when they themselves are extremely discriminatory in who they allow? How can they hold the moral high ground when they simply don't care what happens when scouts are bullying one another? Eagle scouts I haven't heard nearly as many bad things about, and anyone who does manage to achieve that, I have a wary respect for. The rest? Not so much. The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts) In anything of this nature, you are going to have dropouts. That doesn't put a bad mark on the BSA, just those who quit. you are right, many religious people don't, but the religious ideals at it's founding were this way. I suppose if the vast majority of leaders considers it the right step, then... well I don't know. it wouldn't really be the Scouts anymore. I mean the pledge mentions God, but I suppose they could allow atheists in. It is just one of those things. it's hard to argue this without getting into the bigger topic of gay rights in general (forcing Churches to hold gay weddings, photographers can't refuse to do a gay wedding, etc). They can chose, and I don't see why they NEED to do this if it is in opposition to what it was founded on. just because that was over a 100 years ago makes no difference. My arguments sound bad because I'm trying to keep this narrow. I'm pretty sure we do, or atleast i have never heard of a scout being kicked from the organization for being a atheist.
You also said that the boy scouts help with the eagle scout project, so unless some small boys were drawing my blood a few years ago, you are missing some information.
I was "kicked" out for being an athiest in 1999. It be easier to say removed but the idea still stands. My scout leader said that because I didn't believe in God (which he had overheard me telling my friends) that I should leave.
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DarkPlasmaBall dropping the knowledge bombs. Seems BSA hasn't updated its views for around a hundred years. I would call them scumbags but beauracracy is slow and I doubt the majority of the scout leaders hate atheists or anything.
As for the part about boys being able to be a girl scout.... well.... I don't get the reasoning behind that. Maybe if the issue of transgenders ever came up, but still. The reasoning is odd. Not that they need to worry though lol. The first guy to enter the girl scouts who didn't have any surgery done is going to get his ass kicked by his peers.
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On June 07 2012 12:28 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On June 07 2012 12:20 Introvert wrote:On June 07 2012 12:11 Selkie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote:
I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization. To address your points: It's only some religions that have issues with gay people. Most (Roman) Catholics I know aren't bothered by it, and are even in favor of gay marriage. Upholding the ban "for religious reasons" is just as strong of an argument as taking down the ban "for religious reasons". Religion argues both ways, so that's not really a good point. As for tradition- well, sure. That is an argument. Not a great one, but an argument. I honestly don't see in what way the BSA is more than a group that does camping, and teaching of minor skills. (The badges- canoing, firestarting, etc etc etc.) How can they claim to be raising people to make ethical and moral choices when they themselves are extremely discriminatory in who they allow? How can they hold the moral high ground when they simply don't care what happens when scouts are bullying one another? Eagle scouts I haven't heard nearly as many bad things about, and anyone who does manage to achieve that, I have a wary respect for. The rest? Not so much. The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts) In anything of this nature, you are going to have dropouts. That doesn't put a bad mark on the BSA, just those who quit. you are right, many religious people don't, but the religious ideals at it's founding were this way. I suppose if the vast majority of leaders considers it the right step, then... well I don't know. it wouldn't really be the Scouts anymore. I mean the pledge mentions God, but I suppose they could allow atheists in. It is just one of those things. it's hard to argue this without getting into the bigger topic of gay rights in general (forcing Churches to hold gay weddings, photographers can't refuse to do a gay wedding, etc). They can chose, and I don't see why they NEED to do this if it is in opposition to what it was founded on. just because that was over a 100 years ago makes no difference. My arguments sound bad because I'm trying to keep this narrow. I'm pretty sure we do, or atleast i have never heard of a scout being kicked from the organization for being a atheist. I think if a higher-up found out, he would be obliged to remove him. However, I think most leaders nowadays wouldn't do so. I think worse of the scouts essentially lying or saying things "they don't really mean", then the organization. It is a private, volunteer organization that does A LOT for local communities. I'm not going to watch the video, I can't stand Penn. He's an actor that many apparently go to for knowledge, when it is often clear he has none.
I just went over my old paper work and realized, that my district has been using unofficial paper work for years, so my boy scouting has been a bit different from the standard experience. And also, my troop and district do not require us to sign such paper work, don't tell texas.
Edit: we used the learning for live paper work, as does my entire district.
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25% said no?
really?
REALLY?
............. /sigh.
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Pretty sure boy scouts was founded as a christen organisation (though its not limited to) that's why but not a good excuse. All should be excepted except girls.
NO GIRLS ALLOWED!!!!!
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If a company refused to employ gay people, would it be okay because the company is a private organisation?
I am absolutely amazed that 25% of people voted No in the OP poll.
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Theoretically they could enforce it, but few troops I've met do (granted, up north were more liberal). I have gay friends, agnostic friends and atheistic friends who are boy scouts. I haven't heard of a gay scout leader though. It should be done with soon if people spread the word around.
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"I feel this is a significant change towards freedom in America."
In much the same way that low carb pie is a significant shift towards the abolition of obesity.
It's the boy scouts. Not the senate. In the long run, if the boy scouts banned or allowed anything it would be literally completely irrelevant.
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On June 07 2012 12:39 hzflank wrote:
If a company refused to employ gay people, would it be okay because the company is a private organisation?
I am absolutely amazed that 25% of people voted No in the OP poll.
In 30 something states in the US you can fire someone for being gay so I would assume not hiring them for it is also legal.
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On June 07 2012 12:39 hzflank wrote:
If a company refused to employ gay people, would it be okay because the company is a private organisation?
I am absolutely amazed that 25% of people voted No in the OP poll.
I voted yes, but the reasoning behind at least some of those votes is that they believe that scouting is a private organization, and not regulated by the government like businesses, and there for make their own decisions, no matter how they personally fell about it.
(and there are a few bigots who have other reasons)
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On June 07 2012 12:41 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:39 hzflank wrote:
If a company refused to employ gay people, would it be okay because the company is a private organisation?
I am absolutely amazed that 25% of people voted No in the OP poll. I voted yes, but the reasoning behind at least some of those votes is that they believe that scouting is a private organization, and not regulated by the government like businesses, and there for make their own decisions, no matter how they personally fell about it. (and there are a few bigots who have other reasons)
I voted yes, because they should allow homosexuals. Do they have to? No, but they should.
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as a former boy scout I think it is important to keep the members to strait religious males only. and yes if you did not know atheist are not allowed in scouts either. The biggest problem is there can't be sexual attraction between people you are camping with. even if it never lead to sex during scout trips it would make sleeping in an tent, changing clothes, and everything in general more awkward. just like the Boy Scouts does not allow girls it should not allow homosexual males to join
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I hate to wade into the self-righteous circle-jerk, but the OP's facts appear to be inaccurate. There is no prohibition on gay Scouts, only on gay leaders. This policy has been set up to protect the boys, and for no other reason. It does NOT spring from any judgement about the morality of homosexuality. Scouting has long taken the position that even one boy harmed is too many, and the policies in place to protect the Scouts are much much broader than the much-publicized prohibition on gay leaders. Two-deep leadership, background checks, and never-alone rules are examples which are less talked-about but are important to understanding Scouting's overall approach.
With regards to atheism, Scouting's stated objective as a private, charitable, non-profit organization is to prepare young men to be men of character and value. It is the OPINION (which they have every right to hold as a private organization) of the Boy Scouts that there should be a higher power that Scouts hold to. Hence the presence of God in the Oath. It doesn't require any specific religion, but it is their belief that a higher moral code is required to fulfill their mission as stated above.
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On June 07 2012 12:30 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 12:23 Jaaaaasper wrote:On June 07 2012 12:20 Introvert wrote:On June 07 2012 12:11 Selkie wrote:On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote:
I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization. To address your points: It's only some religions that have issues with gay people. Most (Roman) Catholics I know aren't bothered by it, and are even in favor of gay marriage. Upholding the ban "for religious reasons" is just as strong of an argument as taking down the ban "for religious reasons". Religion argues both ways, so that's not really a good point. As for tradition- well, sure. That is an argument. Not a great one, but an argument. I honestly don't see in what way the BSA is more than a group that does camping, and teaching of minor skills. (The badges- canoing, firestarting, etc etc etc.) How can they claim to be raising people to make ethical and moral choices when they themselves are extremely discriminatory in who they allow? How can they hold the moral high ground when they simply don't care what happens when scouts are bullying one another? Eagle scouts I haven't heard nearly as many bad things about, and anyone who does manage to achieve that, I have a wary respect for. The rest? Not so much. The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts) In anything of this nature, you are going to have dropouts. That doesn't put a bad mark on the BSA, just those who quit. you are right, many religious people don't, but the religious ideals at it's founding were this way. I suppose if the vast majority of leaders considers it the right step, then... well I don't know. it wouldn't really be the Scouts anymore. I mean the pledge mentions God, but I suppose they could allow atheists in. It is just one of those things. it's hard to argue this without getting into the bigger topic of gay rights in general (forcing Churches to hold gay weddings, photographers can't refuse to do a gay wedding, etc). They can chose, and I don't see why they NEED to do this if it is in opposition to what it was founded on. just because that was over a 100 years ago makes no difference. My arguments sound bad because I'm trying to keep this narrow. I'm pretty sure we do, or atleast i have never heard of a scout being kicked from the organization for being a atheist. You also said that the boy scouts help with the eagle scout project, so unless some small boys were drawing my blood a few years ago, you are missing some information. I was "kicked" out for being an athiest in 1999. It be easier to say removed but the idea still stands. My scout leader said that because I didn't believe in God (which he had overheard me telling my friends) that I should leave.
I never said that scouts did all the work, and we would certainly not do medical procedures, or other activities we were not qualified for. I am on the other hand willing to bet that normal scouts did work setting up stations, putting up flyers, and the like.
Also I am sorry you had a bad experience, your leader sounds like one of the old guard i was speaking of earlier my old troop and my whole former district as far as i know uses the learning for life method, or maybe we are just bull shiting texas, it is a definite possibility, so i have never come across something like that happening, and I have talked to scouts all over the north east.
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On June 07 2012 12:39 hzflank wrote:
If a company refused to employ gay people, would it be okay because the company is a private organisation?
I am absolutely amazed that 25% of people voted No in the OP poll.
Companies aren't really private organizations.
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Wow, this is weird...
So they allow any religion, as long as you are not doubting the existence of a god, or worse yet, believe there is none at all? Is the role of prime evil shifting from the muslims to the atheists now?  Kindof curious how they thought when they changed from christian only to include also other religions, but not include atheists and agnostics.
I always get a bit shocked by this kind of things... Thought I would have learned what to expect from this kind of organisations by now, but nope.
Good that they are removing the gay ban at least, well done.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I voted Yes
However, I can somehow also understand those who said no. It's a group of boys and men who want to roll in the dirt and imagine themselves as manly, manly hunter-gatherers in their backyard. They want to do this with other manly, manly men and don't want anyone who doesn't meet their manly, manly qualifications to be part of their cool group.
The only reason this is a big deal is because BSA is already a large organization of dudes camping in their gardens, and we hold large organizations accountable for things like this. I'm sure if there were no BSA and the entire nation of dudes went camping and didn't want gay guys on their trip it wouldn't be as big a deal.
(I'm obviously exagerrating here)
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EPT
