On June 07 2012 11:42 SpunXtainz wrote: I think it is a dangerous step.
Apart from some of the other points raised here, scouts is supposed to be a masculine pasttime, where men prepare themselves for life. Allowing a feminine person to lead them...
Have you seen Boy Scouts lately? In my troop there were only like 2 people I would consider masculine manly men, the rest of us were just nerds who happened to be into camping and most other scouts I've come across have been the same.
Gays have been discriminated against by scouts for a while now. This is a step in the right direction. I'm proud to say that I was a scout now-- One that is open and accepting of everyone.
On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote: I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization.
Then stop the Federal funding!
eh, I could see the case for that. The thing is, they don't TEACH anti gay things, for instance. Such things are not often (if ever) mentioned. I think they do WAY more good than "harm". I think it's over doing it to take their funding.
Doesn't matter - they still discriminate heavily. They do a lot of good... for nonhomosexuals and nonatheists .
On June 07 2012 11:42 SpunXtainz wrote: I think it is a dangerous step.
Apart from some of the other points raised here, scouts is supposed to be a masculine pasttime, where men prepare themselves for life. Allowing a feminine person to lead them...
Oh you. Just because someone is gay doesn't make them feminine at all. The truth is, you wouldn't be able to tell most gay men from straight men from the way they act because most gay men aren't flamboyant at all.
I think it is a misjudgement that most gay men can't me told apart from straight ones. Almost all of the gay people I know are quite feminine.
How many gays have you meet just out of curiosity, i know some feminine gays, and some who go for the super buff gym rat look, and some who are in between, like most people. Its just that the feminine ones are the easiest to pick out of a crowd that leads to this line of thinking.
On June 07 2012 11:42 SpunXtainz wrote: I think it is a dangerous step.
Apart from some of the other points raised here, scouts is supposed to be a masculine pasttime, where men prepare themselves for life. Allowing a feminine person to lead them...
Have you seen Boy Scouts lately? In my troop there were only like 2 people I would consider masculine manly men, the rest of us were just nerds who happened to be into camping.
Not all gay people are feminine. That's a sweeping generalization to say that all gays are feminine.
On June 07 2012 11:38 Sofestafont wrote: Also don't allow atheists I believe.
Incorrect, i am openly agnostic, which matters in my area, and i was allowed in. My atheist friend made eagle scout. The only rule boy scouts has aginest atheists is that you must believe in a higher power of some kind to receive the rank of eagle scout, the highest rank in boy scouts. All you have to do is say you believe in a higher power. (i.e. you can say yes, and think of the laws of psychics or whatever) You just say yes and move on, they don't interrogate you about it (or should not at least).
Made me chuckle.
Also, you're incorrect, as you yourself pointed out (and was previously cited earlier). If you refuse to believe in a higher power, then obviously you can't receive certain ranks. And that's totally their decision to make, but obviously it's discriminatory against certain atheists and agnostics.
I know several people who have gotten by on the technicality that i mentioned , that as long as we believe in some higher power, which my local council explains as beyond mans control, you can get any rank you earn. Officially you are correct, but most scouts and leaders prove of those technicalities, and also i was commenting on the fact that he said that they did not allow atheists, which is completely incorrect.
So if an atheist believes in psychics he can be a Boy Scout?
Or do you mean if he accepts physics, which has nothing to do with a higher spiritual power? Regardless, I get the technicality and I think that it's really silly... why even have the discriminatory law if you're going to loophole it with literally everything? I mean, I'm thankful they do... but they might as well get rid of it then. (I pray to Joe Pesci )
On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote: I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization.
EDIT: but I will say, the local leaders are the PRIMARY authority for joining. I personally heard my scoutmasters support the idea of gays in the BSA; there is no strict rule keeping done.
Then stop taking money from gay citizens in the form of federal funding.
That's the most important point, the next most important is it's not okay to promote the ideas of discrimination as okay because it's private or based on tradition. There are lots of awful, awful things we don't do anymore that we did when the boyscouts were founded, discriminating against gays is one of them.
The thing is Introvert, fostering a policy of exclusion based on differences in sexual or religious choices does exactly that. It breeds racism, bigotry and unease at fellow human beings. It's the same proud tradition that used to hang negros and burn young women for witchcraft.
On June 07 2012 11:38 Sofestafont wrote: Also don't allow atheists I believe.
Incorrect, i am openly agnostic, which matters in my area, and i was allowed in. My atheist friend made eagle scout. The only rule boy scouts has aginest atheists is that you must believe in a higher power of some kind to receive the rank of eagle scout, the highest rank in boy scouts. All you have to do is say you believe in a higher power. (i.e. you can say yes, and think of the laws of psychics or whatever) You just say yes and move on, they don't interrogate you about it (or should not at least).
Made me chuckle.
Also, you're incorrect, as you yourself pointed out (and was previously cited earlier). If you refuse to believe in a higher power, then obviously you can't receive certain ranks. And that's totally their decision to make, but obviously it's discriminatory against certain atheists and agnostics.
I know several people who have gotten by on the technicality that i mentioned , that as long as we believe in some higher power, which my local council explains as beyond mans control, you can get any rank you earn. Officially you are correct, but most scouts and leaders prove of those technicalities, and also i was commenting on the fact that he said that they did not allow atheists, which is completely incorrect.
Well, we're talking about official policies, so the fact that some troops or whatever can get by with ignoring the official policies is pretty irrelevant.
On June 07 2012 11:42 SpunXtainz wrote: I think it is a dangerous step.
Apart from some of the other points raised here, scouts is supposed to be a masculine pasttime, where men prepare themselves for life. Allowing a feminine person to lead them...
Oh you. Just because someone is gay doesn't make them feminine at all. The truth is, you wouldn't be able to tell most gay men from straight men from the way they act because most gay men aren't flamboyant at all.
I think it is a misjudgement that most gay men can't me told apart from straight ones. Almost all of the gay people I know are quite feminine.
I can link you to LOTS of pictures of masculine gay men if you would like me to. But something tells me you wouldn't like that. In addition. Femininity doesn't equal a bad leader, masculine men do not have the monopoly on leadership skills I'm afraid.
On June 07 2012 11:42 SpunXtainz wrote: I think it is a dangerous step.
Apart from some of the other points raised here, scouts is supposed to be a masculine pasttime, where men prepare themselves for life. Allowing a feminine person to lead them...
Have you seen Boy Scouts lately? In my troop there were only like 2 people I would consider masculine manly men, the rest of us were just nerds who happened to be into camping.
That was my entire troop, and we won almost all of the awards given at every single camporee we attended.
for those that don't know, a camporee is when most or all of the scout troops in a district descend on a unsuspecting area and do a lot of somewhat scouting related activities, like try to pick up local girls and play with fire and sharp objects.
On June 07 2012 12:04 Thenerf wrote: Remember that it is a CHRISTAIN organization.
I feel like I've heard this before (I've even read that it was funded by Christian organizations at the start, and at other times in the past) but I don't recall seeing proof that the BSA was actually a Christian organization per se (as opposed to merely religious).
On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote: I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization.
To address your points:
It's only some religions that have issues with gay people. Most (Roman) Catholics I know aren't bothered by it, and are even in favor of gay marriage. Upholding the ban "for religious reasons" is just as strong of an argument as taking down the ban "for religious reasons". Religion argues both ways, so that's not really a good point.
As for tradition- well, sure. That is an argument. Not a great one, but an argument.
I honestly don't see in what way the BSA is more than a group that does camping, and teaching of minor skills. (The badges- canoing, firestarting, etc etc etc.) How can they claim to be raising people to make ethical and moral choices when they themselves are extremely discriminatory in who they allow? How can they hold the moral high ground when they simply don't care what happens when scouts are bullying one another?
Eagle scouts I haven't heard nearly as many bad things about, and anyone who does manage to achieve that, I have a wary respect for. The rest? Not so much.
The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts)
On June 07 2012 11:38 Sofestafont wrote: Also don't allow atheists I believe.
Incorrect, i am openly agnostic, which matters in my area, and i was allowed in. My atheist friend made eagle scout. The only rule boy scouts has aginest atheists is that you must believe in a higher power of some kind to receive the rank of eagle scout, the highest rank in boy scouts. All you have to do is say you believe in a higher power. (i.e. you can say yes, and think of the laws of psychics or whatever) You just say yes and move on, they don't interrogate you about it (or should not at least).
Made me chuckle.
Also, you're incorrect, as you yourself pointed out (and was previously cited earlier). If you refuse to believe in a higher power, then obviously you can't receive certain ranks. And that's totally their decision to make, but obviously it's discriminatory against certain atheists and agnostics.
I know several people who have gotten by on the technicality that i mentioned , that as long as we believe in some higher power, which my local council explains as beyond mans control, you can get any rank you earn. Officially you are correct, but most scouts and leaders prove of those technicalities, and also i was commenting on the fact that he said that they did not allow atheists, which is completely incorrect.
So if an atheist believes in psychics he can be a Boy Scout?
Or do you mean if he accepts physics, which has nothing to do with a higher spiritual power? Regardless, I get the technicality and I think that it's really silly... why even have the discriminatory law if you're going to loophole it with literally everything? I mean, I'm thankful they do... but they might as well get rid of it then. (I pray to Joe Pesci )
they say nothing of a higher spiritual power, only a higher power, and that only applies to becoming an eagle scout, not being a boyscout. You can be a atheist boyscout, and there are a lot of them, but unless you play the loop hole, you can't be a eagle scout, which i agree is bullcrap. The reason we have said loop hole and have not gotten rid of said stupid rule is there are a fair number of extreme conservatives who have been scouters for their entire lives, and thus drag us back into the 20th and even 19th century, not because the majority of boy scouts agree with them.
On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote: I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization.
Then stop the Federal funding!
eh, I could see the case for that. The thing is, they don't TEACH anti gay things, for instance. Such things are not often (if ever) mentioned. I think they do WAY more good than "harm". I think it's over doing it to take their funding.
Doesn't matter - they still discriminate heavily. They do a lot of good... for nonhomosexuals and nonatheists .
I would argue for everyone. They are NOT openly discriminating. It's just part of the rules. They are using the money for the good of everyone, not just "nonhomosexuals" and "nonatheists".
On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote: I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization.
EDIT: but I will say, the local leaders are the PRIMARY authority for joining. I personally heard my scoutmasters support the idea of gays in the BSA; there is no strict rule keeping done.
Then stop taking money from gay citizens in the form of federal funding.
That's the most important point, the next most important is it's not okay to promote the ideas of discrimination as okay because it's private or based on tradition. There are lots of awful, awful things we don't do anymore that we did when the boyscouts were founded, discriminating against gays is one of them.
They aren't "promoting" anything. They have an an official policy, one which MANY of my leaders disagreed with personally. This is not some atrocity. The bad thing would be pressuring them into a position that comprises the organizations ideals. I think it's also worth pointing it is almost entirely a volunteer based operation. They don't have employees running around monitoring homosexual join attempts.
On June 07 2012 12:04 Thenerf wrote: Remember that it is a CHRISTAIN organization.
I feel like I've heard this before (I've even read that it was funded by Christian organizations at the start, and at other times in the past) but I don't recall seeing proof that the BSA was actually a Christian organization per se (as opposed to merely religious).
Source?
The bullshit video talks about how it was sort of taken over by the Mormons later on, but I don't think it's officially Christian. It is officially bigoted though.
It's officially a Patriotic organization, so it gets federal funding.
Federal funding should not be issued to discriminatory organizations. They lose that right to discriminate when they receive public funding. Either give up the public funding, or stop discriminating.
On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote: I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization.
To address your points:
The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts)
Eagle projects are done planned by the eagle scout, and the entire troop pitches in for the labor and fundraising ( at least in my old troop) And every single troop that i have ever come across does at least one community service day per year, and that is mandatory for all the scouts to attend. I never made eagle scout, but i have over 300 logged hours of community service though boy scouts alone, and though i have more than most, every single rank advancement in boy scouting has required community service hours.
This is the most obvious question in history. Tradition is great and all, unless it's random, exclusionary, and unnecessary. When the only argument left for tradition is; "because it's tradition", then it's a terrible tradition.
On June 07 2012 11:57 Introvert wrote: I'm an Eagle Scout. I generally like tradition, and given that the Boy Scouts is (was) a religious group, I hope they uphold it. The same thing with the ban on atheists. No reason to pressure a group to change their ways (based on the fundamentals of it's founding) for the "time" or else they would also have to allow atheists. The BSA as a whole is more than just a group of people who go on camping trips. This is what separates us from the girls scouts, as well. if someone wants these things, they can start their own organization.
To address your points:
It's only some religions that have issues with gay people. Most (Roman) Catholics I know aren't bothered by it, and are even in favor of gay marriage. Upholding the ban "for religious reasons" is just as strong of an argument as taking down the ban "for religious reasons". Religion argues both ways, so that's not really a good point.
As for tradition- well, sure. That is an argument. Not a great one, but an argument.
I honestly don't see in what way the BSA is more than a group that does camping, and teaching of minor skills. (The badges- canoing, firestarting, etc etc etc.) How can they claim to be raising people to make ethical and moral choices when they themselves are extremely discriminatory in who they allow? How can they hold the moral high ground when they simply don't care what happens when scouts are bullying one another?
Eagle scouts I haven't heard nearly as many bad things about, and anyone who does manage to achieve that, I have a wary respect for. The rest? Not so much.
The girl scouts sell me delicious cookies. The boyscouts don't do anything for the community. (Again: Eagle scout's community projects are an exception. ONLY the Eagle scouts are doing it- not the boy scouts)
In anything of this nature, you are going to have dropouts. That doesn't put a bad mark on the BSA, just those who quit.
you are right, many religious people don't, but the religious ideals at it's founding were this way. I suppose if the vast majority of leaders consider it the right step, then... well I don't know. it wouldn't really be the Scouts anymore. I mean the pledge mentions God, but I suppose they could allow atheists in. It is just one of those things. it's hard to argue this without getting into the bigger topic of gay rights in general (forcing Churches to hold gay weddings, photographers can't refuse to do a gay wedding, etc). They can chose, and I don't see why they NEED to do this if it is in opposition to what it was founded on. just because that was over a 100 years ago makes no difference. My arguments sound bad because I'm trying to keep this narrow.
EPT
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