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On June 03 2012 12:11 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 11:54 wunsun wrote:On June 03 2012 11:41 Zahir wrote:
He wasn't even following the damned school policy. If he can't be arsed to follow the system then why should his students?
The purpose of school is to educate. If a school develops a policy to that end then teachers need to follow it, rather than being conscientious objectors or w/e just because they think it's too lenient. All the other teachers and students in the building had to learn the system, and suddenly your class is the exception to the rule? Like You're special or something? You have the right to dictate your own rules in your class?
No wonder his students kicked up a fuss.
Edit: he is not some kind of god ok. If students don't follow his rules they got a zero whether the school policy allowed for that or not. And now he's suffering the consequences of breaking the rules he should've followed. Either rules matter or they do not you cannot have one rogue teacher disillusioning all of his students making them feel that the system and it's rules only apply to them while their teacher gets to be above the law. Hes no hero, he's a hypocrit for trying to force people to obey his personal dictates, trying to force them to be more dutiful while ignoring his own duties. Uhm, they're kicking a fuss FOR him, and took to twitter and facebook to support him. He still gave them time and extra assignments to make up for missed assignments. He's also doing this to create a scene in a sense to hopefully change/amend this into a policy that better supports the kids. Basically, if one person got 100% on all the assignments, and another got 100% on half, and the other half he didn't do, they would still get the same mark (at least that is my understanding). How is this fair? How is this teaching the kids anything worthwhile (besides how the game the system)? EDIT: Yea, that's what happens: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.html"Teachers were told to no longer give zeros. Instead an uncompleted test or assignment would be marked with a comment. The student's mark would then be based on whatever work is done." Comments by students: "He shouldn't even be teaching anymore. If he wants to hand out zeros, he should be doing some other job — not a teacher." —Ryan Grouette, Grade 10 "If students show up they deserve a minimum mark. A zero seems a bit extreme." —Cindy Smith, Grade 11 "I think he should be allowed to teach. He's a good teacher from what I hear." —Cassandra Gregory, Grade 12 First off, your own quotation shows that student opinion was divided. Second, letting one teacher run his classroom likes its north Korea, with it's leader being able to set his own rules and having zero accountability to anyone, cannot be healthy no matter how good his intentions were. If a student refused to do the work a teacher assigned, and instead chose to do the work the way he personally thought it should be assigned, would you approve of that? I mean why even have rules or teachers anymore lets just have people run amok and teach themselves however they want. Authority doesn't matter, it's all about following your principles, am I right? Or we could actually expect teachers to exhibit the same respect for the rules that we expect from students.
Those were the only ones that were directly quotable. If you read the comments in the article, there are many supporting him.
What he is doing, and what I admire in him, is this. He has been a teacher for 31 years so he has adequate pension to cover him. What he is doing is doing what he believe is good for the kids. He got suspended. Maybe he would have gotten his job back. However, what he is doing instead, since he has the pension, is bringing this to the media, knowing that this will probably fire him. However, he is doing this because he doesn't want to this continue anymore, and wants to be the lightning rod for change.
From the CBC article: "Parents are largely unaware of the policy, as teachers were instructed not to speak about it, he said." He wants change, so he is doing this publicly as possible to bring the change.
From http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/02/edmonton-teacher-may-lose-job-for-refusing-to-let-kids-skip-assignments/
"The anti-zero argument goes something like this: Getting a goose egg discourages students. Zeros are not a measure of intelligence but a matter of behaviour. Kids should only be graded for what they do — not for what they don’t do.
So … why do anything?
Mr. Dorval gives the example of a student who transferred to his class from a non-zero class. The student completed six of 15 assignments for his previous teacher and, since he was only graded for what he did, had a 63% average. Mr. Dorval made it clear to the boy that missed work meant zeros on his watch.
“With me, he did seven of seven assignments,” he says. “It is right there in black and white.”
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On June 03 2012 12:11 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 11:54 wunsun wrote:On June 03 2012 11:41 Zahir wrote:
He wasn't even following the damned school policy. If he can't be arsed to follow the system then why should his students?
The purpose of school is to educate. If a school develops a policy to that end then teachers need to follow it, rather than being conscientious objectors or w/e just because they think it's too lenient. All the other teachers and students in the building had to learn the system, and suddenly your class is the exception to the rule? Like You're special or something? You have the right to dictate your own rules in your class?
No wonder his students kicked up a fuss.
Edit: he is not some kind of god ok. If students don't follow his rules they got a zero whether the school policy allowed for that or not. And now he's suffering the consequences of breaking the rules he should've followed. Either rules matter or they do not you cannot have one rogue teacher disillusioning all of his students making them feel that the system and it's rules only apply to them while their teacher gets to be above the law. Hes no hero, he's a hypocrit for trying to force people to obey his personal dictates, trying to force them to be more dutiful while ignoring his own duties. Uhm, they're kicking a fuss FOR him, and took to twitter and facebook to support him. He still gave them time and extra assignments to make up for missed assignments. He's also doing this to create a scene in a sense to hopefully change/amend this into a policy that better supports the kids. Basically, if one person got 100% on all the assignments, and another got 100% on half, and the other half he didn't do, they would still get the same mark (at least that is my understanding). How is this fair? How is this teaching the kids anything worthwhile (besides how the game the system)? EDIT: Yea, that's what happens: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.html"Teachers were told to no longer give zeros. Instead an uncompleted test or assignment would be marked with a comment. The student's mark would then be based on whatever work is done." Comments by students: "He shouldn't even be teaching anymore. If he wants to hand out zeros, he should be doing some other job — not a teacher." —Ryan Grouette, Grade 10 "If students show up they deserve a minimum mark. A zero seems a bit extreme." —Cindy Smith, Grade 11 "I think he should be allowed to teach. He's a good teacher from what I hear." —Cassandra Gregory, Grade 12 First off, your own quotation shows that student opinion was divided. Second, letting one teacher run his classroom likes its north Korea, with it's leader being able to set his own rules and having zero accountability to anyone, cannot be healthy no matter how good his intentions were. If a student refused to do the work a teacher assigned, and instead chose to do the work the way he personally thought it should be assigned, would you approve of that? I mean why even have rules or teachers anymore lets just have people run amok and teach themselves however they want. Authority doesn't matter, it's all about following your principles, am I right? Or we could actually expect teachers to exhibit the same respect for the rules that we expect from students.
Its probably a more complicated issue than you make it out to be. Authority should generally be respected so that there is some good order in school systems and issues are debated rather than chaotically changed at the teacher level. But it could also be that some school policies are poorly thought out and desperately require revision, but no one is talking about it or willing to debate it because the status quo supports schools in other ways (perhaps they get more money somehow). If this teacher sees that the results of the school's policy is actively damaging their students ability to learn both to earn good grades and to practise a strong work ethic, and he has no other recourse, then he should have the right to protest in some way, or do something that will have a more immediate impact that could spur change at the higher levels.
Secondly there are substitute teachers, so I don't think the students are too adversely affected by this; its mainly just the teacher who is on the line. But you need some mechanism for strong feedback, just like how people can shut down an industry and walk off the job as part of a union. I know its not the same but I think its similar...people should be allowed to send these kinds of messages if they want to, its a hallmark of living in a democratic society. (If anything, that's a good lesson for the students! So long as they don't take it to an extreme).
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While it makes sense that kids who don't turn in work should get zeros, the fact of the matter is he went against the school grading policy. I mean, it seems to me this guy has a hair up his ass because lazy student's wouldn't get severely punished for not turning in work so he took action. In a way it kind of makes him a tragic hero, but at the end of the day he knowingly and deliberately went against school grading policy. I think the school had every right to fire him, although it does seem a tad drastic.
Crazy news stories just don't feel the same without the country bashing. Hopefully the next sensationalist story will come from the good ol' USA so things can start feeling normal around here once again.
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Back in the days when I was in school they gave us zeros for incomplete work then they suspended us for it, and gave us zeros on all the work we missed.
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I apologize, I probably came off more harsh than I meant to. If the teacher was really doing this for his students, I can respect that. I can even respect his methods. I am Just a bit ticked off at some of the attitudes I see herein, people having a ton of sympathy for the teacher while displaying absolutely none for the students this program was at least partially designed to help.
When people exhibit unending sympathy for a teacher who failed to conform to academic standards and absolutely no sympathy for students who do the same, I feel obliged to point out their hypocrisy. How can you advocate a rigorous, tough approach to students, forcing them to conform to all their educators expectations and dismissing them as simply lazy when they do not, and then be all gung Ho about a teacher who fails to do so also. Every one is making a big effort to understand the complex motives that this teacher had, and how noble they actually were, and how the system should maybe change to help teachers like him more.... But when it comes to students, lets just fail them if they don't conform, no matter their reasons.
And yeah I think this particular grading program is dumb just like everyone else, just annoys me how much smart kid arrogance this thread has brought out. Straight up leniency is not the answer, but neither is simply letting kids fail. For a start, we need to display at least as much sympathy for students who break rules and whose actions express contempt for the current state of academia as the teachers who do so.
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"The Mesoamerican Long Count calendar developed in south-central Mexico and Central America required the use of zero as a place-holder within its vigesimal (base-20) positional numeral system"
thus the school is = fail
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lol, no-zero policy... what a bunch of cockadoodles.
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My teachers always told me "if you dont turn in the work, what's there to grade?" It made perfect sense whenever I got zeros for not handing in work... and from what it says in the article the teacher also offers remedial time to people falling behind/need help. What more could they need?
On the other hand, while I dont agree with the school grading policy, a teacher just going off on his own to teach/grade a class in his own style against school policy is asking for trouble.
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So, are the "students" that make the argument that this homework is meaningless the same "students" that expect society to pay for their higher education, as if it's a Right ? Are these the same students bitching about having to pay a bit more in whatever part of Canada that recently increased the student contribution amount ? It seems if their education were so important to them, they wouldn't be bitching about doing homework. When I was in school, sometimes I did my homework, sometimes I didn't, but it was never because I thought it shouldn't have been assigned. That's just stupidity. Since when does the student determine how to teach the course ?
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On June 03 2012 13:28 Djzapz wrote:
lol, no-zero policy... what a bunch of cockadoodles.
Yep. Stupid teacher should have just given them 1's.
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No zero policy is not an academic standard that is exactly why schools changed it "secretly"
The problem is the majority of students are clueless, arrogant and self entitled. And the nail in the coffin is the parents who are the same.
I was only able to last 3 years as a teacher before I totally lost faith with humanity and quit. You get disrespectful and disruptive students that fail exams, don't do homework, show up late every class and get pissy when I separate them from their friends. I am not permitted to fail these students despite them being unable to complete even my dumbed down tests. In fact I was told I needed to give the exorbitantly high marks.
Why? Because the school didn't want parents calling to complain about the teachers that are not doing their jobs because their student is actually the top student in the class blah blah.
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First of all, I totally support the fact that this teacher got suspended.
The teacher is trying to teach his students about the real world, but he, himself, does not fully understand the real world. He is trying to show his students that there are consequences for their actions. As a result, he must understand his own actions have consequences as well. He knows what the rules are and he purposely defied it. Just like how his students knows what the consequences of not completing an assignment, he knows the consequences of not abiding by the rules.
There should not be an exemption for him. If he has a problem with the system, he can try to convince the school board or administrators.
The real world is shaped where people need to confirm in order to succeed. Only a select few are successful by rebelling. But for the vast majority of us, confirming is our best option. It's sad, but this is how our world is shaped.
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what is this bullshit no zero policy? Whats to stop people from getting a high score on 1 or 2 assignments and then stop doing them alltogether? Does this apply for exams also? :/
Anyways most teachers wont go full nazi and not recieve any assignments if they are not submitted on time. They accept late work for some deductions. If you just cant be bothered to even do it late, then 0 sounds like the right score for you.
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May I give an example from my school. In one subject we had three projects:
My marks: 5; -4; -4
Final Mark: 5
Marks from another guy: /; -4; /
Final mark: 4
He just worked for one project and got a better mark then me.......
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It's shit like this that makes me glad I decided against finishing my teaching credits.
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So kids could get a perfect mark on one assignment and then just skip everything else all semester, and the result would be a perfect mark for the semester? How does that benefit the student at all, or society?
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which the school requires under its grading and reporting practice.
That's all there is to it. Argue about why the school requires that, don't defend the teacher for breaking the rule (though defending his opinion is a different thing, but it seems many are doing the first). We don't know all the details of how the classroom is, how they grade things, whether their grade is curved or no, what "not completed' actually means or whether or not it differs from teacher/class to teacher/class.
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"No zero policy" lol wtf is this hand holding bullshit?
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This Teacher is a Hero....
Zero fucks given indeed.
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Oh well, this is what happens when we get "feel good" psychiatrists telling people how to raise kids - they tell people how to do it, but they are not accountable for the results.
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EPT
