EPTTeacher suspended for giving zeros - Page 15
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AmorFatiAbyss
51 Posts
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On the other, kids were informed of his policys and really no teacher should be expected to accomodate a student not willing to work or learn. Teacher should win | ||
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SocialStigma
Australia29 Posts
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AmorFatiAbyss
51 Posts
On June 03 2012 10:45 Chunhyang wrote: Yeah, you can be an idiot for not following something idiotic. This mentality right here is the real problem. People know something is stupid and yet they keep going on with it because god forbid we be different or difficult or step out of line. It takes courage to refuse to follow something idiotic despite pressure. | ||
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
The purpose of school is to educate. If a school develops a policy to that end then teachers need to follow it, rather than being conscientious objectors or w/e just because they think it's too lenient. All the other teachers and students in the building had to learn the system, and suddenly your class is the exception to the rule? Like You're special or something? You have the right to dictate your own rules in your class? No wonder his students kicked up a fuss. Edit: he is not some kind of god ok. If students don't follow his rules they got a zero whether the school policy allowed for that or not. And now he's suffering the consequences of breaking the rules he should've followed. Either rules matter or they do not you cannot have one rogue teacher disillusioning all of his students making them feel that the system and it's rules only apply to them while their teacher gets to be above the law. Hes no hero, he's a hypocrit for trying to force people to obey his personal dictates, trying to force them to be more dutiful while ignoring his own duties. | ||
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wunsun
Canada622 Posts
On June 03 2012 10:51 raVensc2 wrote: I am a student and live in South Australia. When assignments are given out, every student receives a table which tells them what the assignment is being marked on. The assessment criteria is set by SACE (South Australian Certificate of Education), and every teacher must marks using this assessment criteria. This assessment criteria contains the information on what students are expected to demonstrate to achieve each grade, ranging from A to E, and in no way is affected by the time the student submits his or her work. A student could hand up his work late, but the teacher must still mark the student based on the assessment criteria, pay no attention to the submission time, and then hand the assessment to SACE. If a teacher marks students lower than C-grades for main subjects (English, Math), then SACE sends messages to the school to tell them that the teacher is not teaching correctly, or not sufficiently. This is part of a plan to increase the level of education in the community, but demerit points should be given to the students which have not handed up their work on time. I don't see how this is any better, it's just as bad. If a student (one, singular student) gets a D, E or and F, then its the teachers fault that the student didn't do their work? How is it that the student's grade somehow affects the teacher's job. If some kid wants to take advantage of the situation, he can easily do so. I'll just do enough work/effort to get a D, and the teacher is gonna somehow push it up to a C so no message is sent to the school. Furthermore, how there be NO different is assessment based on work being late. At my University, each day late in some classes was a automatic 10% deduction. Others were not marked if even late by 10 minutes (had to be handed in by the end of class). My high school was not bad, I studied, did my work, got 85s-95s. I still wish my HS was harder on me to prepare myself for University. Whenever, I talk to HS kids, I tell them to go the harder schools in my city to better prepare them for University. This whole let's push them through, and hope someone else can teach them life lessons aggravates me to no end. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
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wunsun
Canada622 Posts
On June 03 2012 11:41 Zahir wrote: He wasn't even following the damned school policy. If he can't be arsed to follow the system then why should his students? The purpose of school is to educate. If a school develops a policy to that end then teachers need to follow it, rather than being conscientious objectors or w/e just because they think it's too lenient. All the other teachers and students in the building had to learn the system, and suddenly your class is the exception to the rule? Like You're special or something? You have the right to dictate your own rules in your class? No wonder his students kicked up a fuss. Edit: he is not some kind of god ok. If students don't follow his rules they got a zero whether the school policy allowed for that or not. And now he's suffering the consequences of breaking the rules he should've followed. Either rules matter or they do not you cannot have one rogue teacher disillusioning all of his students making them feel that the system and it's rules only apply to them while their teacher gets to be above the law. Hes no hero, he's a hypocrit for trying to force people to obey his personal dictates, trying to force them to be more dutiful while ignoring his own duties. Uhm, they're kicking a fuss FOR him, and took to twitter and facebook to support him. He still gave them time and extra assignments to make up for missed assignments. He's also doing this to create a scene in a sense to hopefully change/amend this into a policy that better supports the kids. Basically, if one person got 100% on all the assignments, and another got 100% on half, and the other half he didn't do, they would still get the same mark (at least that is my understanding). How is this fair? How is this teaching the kids anything worthwhile (besides how the game the system)? EDIT: Yea, that's what happens: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.html "Teachers were told to no longer give zeros. Instead an uncompleted test or assignment would be marked with a comment. The student's mark would then be based on whatever work is done." Comments by students: "He shouldn't even be teaching anymore. If he wants to hand out zeros, he should be doing some other job — not a teacher." —Ryan Grouette, Grade 10 "If students show up they deserve a minimum mark. A zero seems a bit extreme." —Cindy Smith, Grade 11 "I think he should be allowed to teach. He's a good teacher from what I hear." —Cassandra Gregory, Grade 12 | ||
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waxypants
United States479 Posts
On June 03 2012 03:32 Trezeguet wrote: Yeah, you don't understand what is going on. I am not trying to incite you, just being blunt. Giving a kid 40%s the whole way flunks them right good. If a student demonstrates to me outside of the homework that they are above average in my class, but do not do any of the homework, I will likely pass them. Not with an A, but with the lowest passing grade available. The kid doesn't win. No one can show off a C, but on the other hand, the kid knows the stuff so what am I proving my holding him/her back? Your posts make no sense. How often do you have an actual good student who is great in class but doesn't do any of the work. When I was in high school, there was no such thing. It was pretty clear in class who were the good students, and they did the work. Students who didn't do the work screwed around in class the whole time, didn't pay attention, and didn't ever contribute. Also, if you value in-class contribution so much, you can make it part of your course grading rubric as many teachers have. There are a variety of ways to do it (for example, you can structure it so you can be rewarded but not heavily punished for in-class contribution). Honestly I don't understand why there is so much discussion on this. High school was pretty straightforward. You just show up everyday, spend a couple hours at most on homework. I took the hardest classes available and got through them without a ton of difficulty with a perfect or close to it on most things. I did have to put in work, but it wasn't THAT bad most of the time. I can only imagine how easy it would be if I took the absolute bare minimum. I understand that some people just naturally aren't so good at school to put it nicely, but I think most of them should be able to easily do the minimum passable work in the minimum level classes. | ||
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
Never mind that the incomplete is basically a zero with a chance for the kid to make it up later, which most teachers already give, at least to students they like. No second chances, I wouldn't want my doctor to ever have had an opportunity to make up work in high school. Far better my doctor have studied under a megalomaniac who believed standards did not apply to him, and passed on that logic to his students. | ||
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
On June 03 2012 09:59 PrideNeverDie wrote: this is the decline of american education we gave liberals the power over school systems and instead of allowing our best to fulfill their potentials they held everyone back to allow our worst to feel better about themselves. instead of allowing some people to fail they would rather the entire nation shoulder the burden by throwing more money at the problem. everyone should graduate college and be anything they want to be the liberals said. then when the people who believed them took out too much in loans and got a harsh dose of reality the liberals blamed the system calling it broken. the system is broken and liberals broke it because in life there will always be winners and losers. I hope you realize this was in Canada. I think the real decline in american education is from the lack of reading of linked articles. | ||
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urasyupi2
United States810 Posts
INCOMPLETE would be defined as we didn't show any of our work or we skipped so many problems that the teacher noticed. ZERO would be lateness for 3 days or just not caring. Typically the second option. Many teachers give a TON of time for students to turn in missing or incomplete work. It's the students problem if they don't do it. From what I'm reading, it looks like the teacher gave them a TON of time to turn in their shit. Ah well. | ||
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naastyOne
491 Posts
Any type of work does includes tedious, uninteresing parts, but nececery parts, non the less. so as long as the amound of homework is reasonable, and the homework`s influence on the overal result also is reasonable, I see no problem with grading the not turned in HW with zero. | ||
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
On June 03 2012 10:45 Chunhyang wrote: My cousin did the following once: give no zeroes, but make sure to take that out of other works. If they deserve to fail, make sure they do. Give essay questions for maximum grading discretion. Thats even worse. One thing we learn as teachers is the proper evaluation is extremely important. Clearly laid out well defined deterministic rules should govern grading. You can add a non-deterministic portion for participation also if you so wish. This teacher did the right thing by grading incomplete assignments as 0, because how can you get a score for something that you haven't even turned in? You cousin was a moron who was penalizing students after the fact and thus covering up where they did well and where they did badly. | ||
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
In his researching of the so-called No Zeros Policy, Dorval found it’s tied to the self-esteem movement, to the notion that if students get a zero it will damage their egos and they will give up. But he’s found in his years of teaching that students who don’t do the work simply don’t like school and don’t care to do the work. Essentially, many have already given up, he says. Yet almost all students, he says, will make some effort to catch up on their work when Dorval presents them with two sets of marks. One set shows their average mark for all their completed tests and work, but not factoring in the work they have failed to complete. The second set of averaged marks factors in the zeros the students will get if they fail to do all the required work. This second, lower set of marks usually does the trick, Dorval says. “I just get a flood of assignments in and students coming to me, ‘Can I make up this quiz?’” The students have until the end of the school year to catch up, without any penalty. “I don’t give them any punishment at all or deduction.” Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Ross Sheppard teacher kicked class giving students zeros poll/6709514/story.html#ixzz1whCXy9me Seriously this guy is a fucking hero. His method is a lot lot better than the schools. Hopefully he will be elected to replace the idiot running the school currently. | ||
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Rebornlife
Canada224 Posts
And for my explanation: This change came in sometime when I was in jr.high (7-9) and teachers hated it. Some tried to accept it and be nice about it, but it was pretty clear they didn't agree with it either. What happened in my school was the teachers were eventually forced to implement the "NotHandedIn or NHI" instead of the zero. Thus students could miss assignments (even major ones) and their average would not change. It would only be based on the work they had completed. BUT the principle of the school actually had brains enough to make those NHIs turn into 0s by the end of the year. (each teacher assigned a deadline at thier discretion) No one complained because we loved it. Do fuck all for assignments, homework or individual projects and then do them all the last couple weeks of classes. I remember i had something like 20 missing french assignments because I knew i wasn't taking french in high school. So i borrowed those 20 some assignments from a friend that had finished them, and basically did grade 9 french in a week. Failed every test and passed the class because of the assignments. Long story short I did fuck all in jr.high and still had honours, while in the cogito advanced program. Im no brainiac by any means. 70-80% in high school and 60-70% first year university, but honestly a kid would have to have MAJOR problems at home or have a disabilty to not pass the bare minimum required classes. Free rides all day every day for 3 years. High school came along and I went to Jasper Place High, the rival to Ross Shepard High (where the teacher taught obvs). Anyways, I never had one teacher at JP follow this "rule". They gave out zeros and were not afraid to confront parents about it, neither was the adminstration though either, they let it happen. We as students could care less, most of us understood that it would ready us for life/school later on, or they respected their teachers too much to let it become a problem. Obviously the lower stream classes had more conflicts, but I never heard of any big challenges to the fact teachers gave out zeros. Some teachers I didn't have may have adopted the NHI rule, but that would be on their own accord if it happened. Although passing the lower stream classes is still really easy, it at least allowed people to fail. But most people who I know dropped out did it because of either skipping too much/not caring about school/having a job lined up/, not because they were failing. (although because of the lack of attention many of them had failing grades, but the grades usually were not the cause) I tell you this because many people will argue for the NHI rule that a missed assignment, etc shouldn't be the factor on whether they graduate or not. This rarely happens, it's constantly neglecting school that determines it. Many schools admins (Ross Sheppard) love this NHI rule because it raises their averages. Realize the media makes this sound like it's all the EPSB's fault, (and yes it is their dumb ass rule) but a lot of blame should be placed on the school. Their the ones enforcing these crazy rules. Many outrageous laws still exist in Canada the U.S. and else where that don't make sense anymore and aren't enforced by police agencies. The school plays the role of the police in this situation. While yes I admit this is perhaps a bit ludacris of a comparison, I think it's a good way to look at it. Anyone who supports this stupidity is not doing so for the sake of the students. | ||
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
On June 03 2012 11:54 wunsun wrote: Uhm, they're kicking a fuss FOR him, and took to twitter and facebook to support him. He still gave them time and extra assignments to make up for missed assignments. He's also doing this to create a scene in a sense to hopefully change/amend this into a policy that better supports the kids. Basically, if one person got 100% on all the assignments, and another got 100% on half, and the other half he didn't do, they would still get the same mark (at least that is my understanding). How is this fair? How is this teaching the kids anything worthwhile (besides how the game the system)? EDIT: Yea, that's what happens: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/05/31/edmonton-teacher-zeros-sheppard.html "Teachers were told to no longer give zeros. Instead an uncompleted test or assignment would be marked with a comment. The student's mark would then be based on whatever work is done." Comments by students: "He shouldn't even be teaching anymore. If he wants to hand out zeros, he should be doing some other job — not a teacher." —Ryan Grouette, Grade 10 "If students show up they deserve a minimum mark. A zero seems a bit extreme." —Cindy Smith, Grade 11 "I think he should be allowed to teach. He's a good teacher from what I hear." —Cassandra Gregory, Grade 12 First off, your own quotation shows that student opinion was divided. Second, letting one teacher run his classroom likes its north Korea, with it's leader being able to set his own rules and having zero accountability to anyone, cannot be healthy no matter how good his intentions were. If a student refused to do the work a teacher assigned, and instead chose to do the work the way he personally thought it should be assigned, would you approve of that? I mean why even have rules or teachers anymore lets just have people run amok and teach themselves however they want. Authority doesn't matter, it's all about following your principles, am I right? Or we could actually expect teachers to exhibit the same respect for the rules that we expect from students. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
But really, that's sort of sad. Especially the quotes from some of the kids...they sound like complete lightweights. | ||
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Existential
Australia2107 Posts
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micronesia
United States24666 Posts
On June 03 2012 12:11 Zahir wrote: First off, your own quotation shows that student opinion was divided. Second, letting one teacher run his classroom likes its north Korea, with it's leader being able to set his own rules and having zero accountability to anyone, cannot be healthy no matter how good his intentions were. If a student refused to do the work a teacher assigned, and instead chose to do the work the way he personally thought it should be assigned, would you approve of that? I mean why even have rules or teachers anymore lets just have people run amok and teach themselves however they want. Authority doesn't matter, it's all about following your principles, am I right? Or we could actually expect teachers to exhibit the same respect for the rules that we expect from students. The tricky part is when you are expected to follow rules that are specifically detrimental to the learning of your students. Both professionally and personally you want your students to learn and you are to obey rules that prevent you from doing that. It's pretty rough. On top of it, when your students don't succeed you get blamed for it, even if it is primarily because of stupid rules you had no control over. In my experience, professional teaching is often a juggling act where you try to figure out which rules you can break for the benefit of your students and still get away with it. Of course I'm not talking about helping students cheat or skipping requirements for them; I'm talking about disregarding the restrictions placed on your pedagogy/grading/etc because you are very sure that the way being imposed on you will hurt your students. | ||
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