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On May 05 2012 05:26 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
sounds good to me. i want to play video games all day and have others provide my basic necessities. Do you really want to play video games all day? Or is wanting to play video games all day actually an urge for escapism from what is the current reality? Perhaps if you did not live in a shithole of a society - which pretty much all of the societies today are - that by design makes any rational human miserable and stressed, you would in fact not want to play video games all day because that's a boring and life-draining activity. Do you think people who lock themselves in and play games or watch television all day actually enjoy their life and would rather not do something else with it? Think again. People have an inherent motivation to learn, work and create things - and this motivation is not just mere survival. The antagonistic view of labor and the desire to stop working comes entirely from the - in vast majority of cases very justified - feeling of your labor being exploited and treated unfairly and the hostile working environments this leads to. Do you think people dread going to work in the morning because the actual work is too physically or mentally difficult for them, or because of this hostile environment bred entirely by following economic dogmas? People can't not work. It's in our nature to want to work. But it is also in our nature to resist being exploited or forced to do things that exploit others.
I will let Talins comment explain it for me. Profit based incentive is a myth we all have many intrest if were allowed to explore them its the society thats inefficent and slow. We as gamers can problem solve at a higher pace if school is boring its because its not stimulating enough and needs to be improved. And the end goal of all of this is FREEDOM without a price tag.
my buddy is a teacher in the UK and he said "Grades are just an excuse for bad teachers to fail their students".
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On May 06 2012 09:36 DeliCiousVP wrote:
thats an american fantasy the profit incentive. Its a myth People are the most incentvised when their pursuing their intrest not when their slaving for a wage.
American fantasy? It's been the driving point of the majority of humanity for the last centuries, if not millenia. People want a good and rewarding life, plain and simple.
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On May 06 2012 09:51 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 09:36 DeliCiousVP wrote:
thats an american fantasy the profit incentive. Its a myth People are the most incentvised when their pursuing their intrest not when their slaving for a wage. American fantasy? It's been the driving point of the majority of humanity for the last centuries, if not millenia. People want a good and rewarding life, plain and simple.
No its a myth.
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On May 06 2012 09:51 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:26 Talin wrote:On May 05 2012 05:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
sounds good to me. i want to play video games all day and have others provide my basic necessities. Do you really want to play video games all day? Or is wanting to play video games all day actually an urge for escapism from what is the current reality? Perhaps if you did not live in a shithole of a society - which pretty much all of the societies today are - that by design makes any rational human miserable and stressed, you would in fact not want to play video games all day because that's a boring and life-draining activity. Do you think people who lock themselves in and play games or watch television all day actually enjoy their life and would rather not do something else with it? Think again. People have an inherent motivation to learn, work and create things - and this motivation is not just mere survival. The antagonistic view of labor and the desire to stop working comes entirely from the - in vast majority of cases very justified - feeling of your labor being exploited and treated unfairly and the hostile working environments this leads to. Do you think people dread going to work in the morning because the actual work is too physically or mentally difficult for them, or because of this hostile environment bred entirely by following economic dogmas? People can't not work. It's in our nature to want to work. But it is also in our nature to resist being exploited or forced to do things that exploit others. I will let Talins comment explain it for me. Profit based incentive is a myth we all have many intrest if were allowed to explore them its the society thats inefficent and slow. We as gamers can problem solve at a higher pace if school is boring its because its not stimulating enough and needs to be improved. And the end goal of all of this is FREEDOM without a price tag. my buddy is a teacher in the UK and he said "Grades are just an excuse for bad teachers to fail their students".
So who is going to work in the sewers? Magic robots that have yet to be invented or people that have a real passion for sewer work?
The bottom line is that people need the money incentive to work because the work that needs to be done is not where people's passion lies.
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the video was poorly made and not convincing at all. the arguments were very poor.
it just seems like some trolling or someone trying to take advantage of the current economical situation (as described by the media) but I don't really see where he is trying to go with this.
he can't possibly believe that a world without money would be better.
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On May 06 2012 09:55 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 09:51 1Eris1 wrote:On May 06 2012 09:36 DeliCiousVP wrote:
thats an american fantasy the profit incentive. Its a myth People are the most incentvised when their pursuing their intrest not when their slaving for a wage. American fantasy? It's been the driving point of the majority of humanity for the last centuries, if not millenia. People want a good and rewarding life, plain and simple. No its a myth.
Give us a defined example that your statement is true.
I feel that you should become less oblivious to the evidence given against you...
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On May 06 2012 09:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 09:51 DeliCiousVP wrote:On May 05 2012 05:26 Talin wrote:On May 05 2012 05:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
sounds good to me. i want to play video games all day and have others provide my basic necessities. Do you really want to play video games all day? Or is wanting to play video games all day actually an urge for escapism from what is the current reality? Perhaps if you did not live in a shithole of a society - which pretty much all of the societies today are - that by design makes any rational human miserable and stressed, you would in fact not want to play video games all day because that's a boring and life-draining activity. Do you think people who lock themselves in and play games or watch television all day actually enjoy their life and would rather not do something else with it? Think again. People have an inherent motivation to learn, work and create things - and this motivation is not just mere survival. The antagonistic view of labor and the desire to stop working comes entirely from the - in vast majority of cases very justified - feeling of your labor being exploited and treated unfairly and the hostile working environments this leads to. Do you think people dread going to work in the morning because the actual work is too physically or mentally difficult for them, or because of this hostile environment bred entirely by following economic dogmas? People can't not work. It's in our nature to want to work. But it is also in our nature to resist being exploited or forced to do things that exploit others. I will let Talins comment explain it for me. Profit based incentive is a myth we all have many intrest if were allowed to explore them its the society thats inefficent and slow. We as gamers can problem solve at a higher pace if school is boring its because its not stimulating enough and needs to be improved. And the end goal of all of this is FREEDOM without a price tag. my buddy is a teacher in the UK and he said "Grades are just an excuse for bad teachers to fail their students". So who is going to work in the sewers? Magic robots that have yet to be invented or people that have a real passion for sewer work? The bottom line is that people need the money incentive to work because the work that needs to be done is not where people's passion lies.
Finaly a real valid POINT yes its a transition nobody wants to work in the sewers, Machines can take over 99% of the jobs that we know of so far, And obviously you would need enginners to oversee the machines but a normal citizen could be educated enough to detect errors and either find the infromation recquired to fix it himself or get help.
The problem is not so much what do we do with the people who has to work its how do we rehiblitate people who has known nothing but work/hardwork their whole life?
We have 600 million people unemployed all over the world and the rate of unemployment will rise due to technical unemployment and societies today are desperatly creating well fare program to keep their citizen employed to circulate the economy.
The Occupy movement is a great example of shifting values in the public their not quite there yet but their getting there.
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On May 06 2012 09:55 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 09:51 1Eris1 wrote:On May 06 2012 09:36 DeliCiousVP wrote:
thats an american fantasy the profit incentive. Its a myth People are the most incentvised when their pursuing their intrest not when their slaving for a wage. American fantasy? It's been the driving point of the majority of humanity for the last centuries, if not millenia. People want a good and rewarding life, plain and simple. No its a myth.
A myth? What? How is wanting a better life a myth? That doesn't even make sense.
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If you wan't to eliminate profits, you need a perfectly competative market. 0 long term economic profits, all Econ 101 stuff. Allocates resources efficiently as well.
You need some sort of money in order to reduce the cost of trading. Trading your work at an office for food, or gas, or a new car becomes more costly to everyone since you need the person selling the goods to you to have need of your office services.
What you are looking for is a world in perfect competition, which is impossible. That would mean no goverment laws, and identical products.
Tl;Dr: Resources are scarse, wants are unlimited. Money is a material estimate on what you contribute, therefore that is what you get to take out. Bad idea, video is more visual arguments and slanter then solid facts.
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On May 06 2012 10:07 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 09:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 06 2012 09:51 DeliCiousVP wrote:On May 05 2012 05:26 Talin wrote:On May 05 2012 05:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
sounds good to me. i want to play video games all day and have others provide my basic necessities. Do you really want to play video games all day? Or is wanting to play video games all day actually an urge for escapism from what is the current reality? Perhaps if you did not live in a shithole of a society - which pretty much all of the societies today are - that by design makes any rational human miserable and stressed, you would in fact not want to play video games all day because that's a boring and life-draining activity. Do you think people who lock themselves in and play games or watch television all day actually enjoy their life and would rather not do something else with it? Think again. People have an inherent motivation to learn, work and create things - and this motivation is not just mere survival. The antagonistic view of labor and the desire to stop working comes entirely from the - in vast majority of cases very justified - feeling of your labor being exploited and treated unfairly and the hostile working environments this leads to. Do you think people dread going to work in the morning because the actual work is too physically or mentally difficult for them, or because of this hostile environment bred entirely by following economic dogmas? People can't not work. It's in our nature to want to work. But it is also in our nature to resist being exploited or forced to do things that exploit others. I will let Talins comment explain it for me. Profit based incentive is a myth we all have many intrest if were allowed to explore them its the society thats inefficent and slow. We as gamers can problem solve at a higher pace if school is boring its because its not stimulating enough and needs to be improved. And the end goal of all of this is FREEDOM without a price tag. my buddy is a teacher in the UK and he said "Grades are just an excuse for bad teachers to fail their students". So who is going to work in the sewers? Magic robots that have yet to be invented or people that have a real passion for sewer work? The bottom line is that people need the money incentive to work because the work that needs to be done is not where people's passion lies. Finaly a real valid POINT yes its a transition nobody wants to work in the sewers, Machines can take over 99% of the jobs that we know of so far, And obviously you would need enginners to oversee the machines but a normal citizen could be educated enough to detect errors and either find the infromation recquired to fix it himself or get help. The problem is not so much what do we do with the people who has to work its how do we rehiblitate people who has known nothing but work/hardwork their whole life? We have 600 million people unemployed all over the world and the rate of unemployment will rise due to technical unemployment and societies today are desperatly creating well fare program to keep their citizen employed to circulate the economy. The Occupy movement is a great example of shifting values in the public their not quite there yet but their getting there.
Machines CANNOT take over 99% of the jobs.
1) you are working with machines that do not exist yet.
2) the machines you are theorizing are expensive, and therefore, their construction will leave less room for consumer goods. As in we'll all be poorer for it.
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On May 06 2012 10:09 Jisall wrote:
If you wan't to eliminate profits, you need a perfectly competative market. 0 long term economic profits, all Econ 101 stuff. Allocates resources efficiently as well..
Profits should be Social and envirmoental not fiction currency. Competion is replaced with co-operation. Our economy is about allocating resources as unefficently as possible in order to maximize profits through supply and demand. While maintaining a cyclical consumtipn circle where tons of resources are wasted. Products are created inferior with "planned obselence" either through a cell phone battery built inefficent to become unbearable once the next version is out.
You manufacture scarcity to maintain market value REGARDLESS of social and enviromental cost. Poison the water earn money through selling clean water.
This has happened in etiopia for example where farmers were forced to burn half their harvest in order to increase market value thus starving the whole country.
Many of you are no aware of the incrediable damage we caused our planet we all live sheltered in our nice little suburban houses while the rest of the world is our garbage dump. We are disgusting ignorant and above else we value our own opinion to the point where we would let people die to protect what we belive in.
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On May 06 2012 10:20 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:09 Jisall wrote:
If you wan't to eliminate profits, you need a perfectly competative market. 0 long term economic profits, all Econ 101 stuff. Allocates resources efficiently as well.. This has happened in etiopia for example where farmers were forced to burn half their harvest in order to increase market value thus starving the whole country.
Government forces people to burn their harvest: blame capitalism.
You realize in this example the poor farmers are the evil capitalists and those who came up with the idea to burn the harvests are social engineers like you.
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On May 06 2012 10:20 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:09 Jisall wrote:
If you wan't to eliminate profits, you need a perfectly competative market. 0 long term economic profits, all Econ 101 stuff. Allocates resources efficiently as well.. Profits should be Social and envirmoental not fiction currency. Competion is replaced with co-operation. Our economy is about allocating resources as unefficently as possible in order to maximize profits through supply and demand. While maintaining a cyclical consumtipn circle where tons of resources are wasted. Products are created inferior with "planned obselence" either through a cell phone battery built inefficent to become unbearable once the next version is out. You manufacture scarcity to maintain market value REGARDLESS of social and enviromental cost. Poison the water earn money through selling clean water. This has happened in etiopia for example where farmers were forced to burn half their harvest in order to increase market value thus starving the whole country. Many of you are no aware of the incrediable damage we caused our planet we all live sheltered in our nice little suburban houses while the rest of the world is our garbage dump. We are disgusting ignorant and above else we value our own opinion to the point where we would let people die to protect what we belive in.
I do not know how profits can be social or envirornmental. That seems impossible to me. If resources are allocated inefficiently then you will go out of business as another firm produces the same quality product for less. Technological growth is "planned obselence". It is supposed to happen that way. Just as Cocaine stopped being a pain killer and advil became the norm. Sure coca cola had to change their recipe but it was for the better. More efficient, and less harmful side-effects.
Scarcity stems from there only being so much stuff we can use to create more stuff. The earth is huge, but so is the population.
That is why goverments subsidize the agiculture industry at least here in the U.S. Farmers make money from the subsities, not from the crop. We pay farmers to produce more then we need. Hikes prices but also the supply. The U.S. agriculture industry is very efficient because of it, we produce more food then we need.
Please do not insult our soldiers, they are willing to die for what they feel is right. The difference in classes of people is a mental barrier. People do not need a shit-ton of money to be happy. The entitlement to a happy life can not be given, it is something you have to find personally. You can judge the world as a shit-hole, but that is your own bias's showing threw.
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On May 06 2012 10:20 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:09 Jisall wrote:
If you wan't to eliminate profits, you need a perfectly competative market. 0 long term economic profits, all Econ 101 stuff. Allocates resources efficiently as well.. Profits should be Social and envirmoental not fiction currency. Competion is replaced with co-operation. Our economy is about allocating resources as unefficently as possible in order to maximize profits through supply and demand. While maintaining a cyclical consumtipn circle where tons of resources are wasted. Products are created inferior with "planned obselence" either through a cell phone battery built inefficent to become unbearable once the next version is out. You manufacture scarcity to maintain market value REGARDLESS of social and enviromental cost. Poison the water earn money through selling clean water. This has happened in etiopia for example where farmers were forced to burn half their harvest in order to increase market value thus starving the whole country. Many of you are no aware of the incrediable damage we caused our planet we all live sheltered in our nice little suburban houses while the rest of the world is our garbage dump. We are disgusting ignorant and above else we value our own opinion to the point where we would let people die to protect what we belive in.
You are not describing capitalism.
Profits are made by satisfying demand. NOT CONSTRICTING SUPPLY!
Planned obsolescence is done because you cannot put all current and future technology into one product now. To do that you'd either need to delay the product (constrict supply) or make it super expensive (constrict supply).
You are arguing for the opposite of what you want!!!!
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On May 06 2012 10:20 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Profits should be Social and envirmoental not fiction currency. Competion is replaced with co-operation. Our economy is about allocating resources as unefficently as possible in order to maximize profits through supply and demand. While maintaining a cyclical consumtipn circle where tons of resources are wasted. Products are created inferior with "planned obselence" either through a cell phone battery built inefficent to become unbearable once the next version is out.
Why would I work in this society? Am I expected to be a decent enough human being that I'll work for the common good, rather than personal interest?
Also, generally, if somebody makes money, it's because they've contributed something to society that somebody is willing to pay for. Do corporations fleece us all the time? Sure. But I don't think that an idealistic, largely impractical global communistic society is the way to solve our problem.
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I finally understand that line of Desperado:
Freedom.... that's just some people talking.
Your prison is walking through this world all alone.
Freedom is a metaphor for things being free. And people are talking about it in this thread. Also, prison is a metaphor for poverty. And poverty is lonely in this world because it is the most badass of all economic afflictions and all the others are too intimidated to approach it in the halls for fear of getting wedgied.
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On May 06 2012 03:56 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:29 DeliCiousVP wrote:On May 06 2012 03:02 DeathCompany wrote:
Mmmmmm so... what ever i am entitled to and can receive... the homeless man down the block who doesnt work or anything. gets aswell? You think u work hard ? Your think you work harder then a 16 hour sweatshop laborer that works for less then a dollar? You are siphoning of the stockmarket exploiting the rest of the world. If that hobo isen't entitled to anything your entitled to half of a dollar a day. We all live on welfare from our countries whether we work or not. The sweatshop laborer doesn't get paid as much because he's not as productive. Now, it's not his fault, he DOES work hard, but he doesn't have the productive infrastructure (machines, transportation, etc.) that western workers have. This problem gets solved over time by the capital markets and international corporations. Since workers in foreign countries are cheaper it is more profitable to make stuff there. That profit motive entices businesses to invest in those countries. Over time those investments make the workers more productive and their wages rise. That's not just theory. That's what has happened and continues to happen to this day and it has uplifted hundred of millions of people out of grinding absolute poverty.
You do realize we cant support that sort of planet right? The amount of consumtion, pollution, waste, etc... that most develop nations produce, if rivaled by all other nations, would cause us to deplete our resources and destroy what semblance of an environment we have left. We wouldnt have enough food, enough anything really to sustain 7 billion people on a north american lifestyle. There need to be poor in order for there to be rich. Thats just the way it is. We can work together and stifle our advancement, or we can help a little here and there, and continue to advance. You cant really do both.
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On May 06 2012 10:39 Gummy wrote:I finally understand that line of Desperado:
Freedom.... that's just some people talking.
Your prison is walking through this world all alone.
Freedom is a metaphor for things being free. And people are talking about it in this thread. Also, prison is a metaphor for poverty. And poverty is lonely in this world because it is the most badass of all economic afflictions and all the others are too intimidated to approach it in the halls for fear of getting wedgied.
I always felt that the prison was being stuck in your head. My personal view. Had some struggles in my young life, but I have come to view freedom as looking beyond the struggles and enjoying what you have. Not giving a fuck basically.
This would make a good blog you should make it one gummy  .
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xeo1 do post a poll on the front page, I would like to know the TL consensus.
Also, heres how FWC answers "But there will be no motivation to work.. or do anything!" in the FAQs:
"Money is not an incentive to work, it is an obligation to earn. True incentives to work are passion, flair, helping out, meeting people, wanting to learn. Once money is removed from our lives, people will work with these incentives only, and be far happier and more productive as a result.
As to having nothing to do, that's up to the individual. In a free world, being free of work and financial constraints would enable you to fulfil your dreams in ways that you can only imagine now. For instance, you could travel anywhere, anytime; pursue your hobby or passion without cost constraints; contribute your skills or talents into the community; spend more time with your family, etc."
I can think of quite a few jobs that the first paragraphs would not apply.
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On May 06 2012 10:48 BlindKill wrote:
xeo1 do post a poll on the front page, I would like to know the TL consensus.
Also, heres how FWC answers "But there will be no motivation to work.. or do anything!" in the FAQs:
"Money is not an incentive to work, it is an obligation to earn. True incentives to work are passion, flair, helping out, meeting people, wanting to learn. Once money is removed from our lives, people will work with these incentives only, and be far happier and more productive as a result.
As to having nothing to do, that's up to the individual. In a free world, being free of work and financial constraints would enable you to fulfil your dreams in ways that you can only imagine now. For instance, you could travel anywhere, anytime; pursue your hobby or passion without cost constraints; contribute your skills or talents into the community; spend more time with your family, etc."
I can think of quite a few jobs that the first paragraphs would not apply.
You can go use your passion and flair for helping out, etc... While I can sit at home and play LoL all day and rage at the massive number of noobs that the free world charter has added to the solo queue.
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EPT
