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I can't believe people are taking this seriously...
Money, a mere tool for convenience of trading efficiently, is not a problem of the world (people wouldn't be magically attracted to money if it had no value) but it is simply an outlet for human greed, that everyone wants more and more.
You're all going to be living in the same value of houses, same clothes, same value of cars, ect because...
Everyone wants to live in a palace, but there will not be enough resources to make one for everyone... If the guy next to you gets a palace for free, what's stopping you from getting a palace?
You would have to *work* for the palace. That is the fundamentals of capitalism.
Also, it is not to mention that someone/some organization will have to be in control to monitor the supply distribution,
supposedly 100% made from robots, which will give the person/group practically indefinite power over people.
This is a system bound to fail as relies on the goodwill of everyone.
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On May 05 2012 21:35 Toasterbaked wrote:
I can't believe people are taking this seriously...
Money, a mere tool for convenience of trading efficiently, is not a problem of the world (people wouldn't be magically attracted to money if it had no value) but it is simply an outlet for human greed, that everyone wants more and more.
You're all going to be living in the same value of houses, same clothes, same value of cars, ect because...
Everyone wants to live in a palace, but there will not be enough resources to make one for everyone... If the guy next to you gets a palace for free, what's stopping you from getting a palace?
You would have to *work* for the palace. That is the fundamentals of capitalism.
Also, it is not to mention that someone/some organization will have to be in control to monitor the supply distribution,
supposedly 100% made from robots, which will give the person/group practically indefinite power over people.
This is a system bound to fail as relies on the goodwill of everyone.
Yeah, the hippies think that a barter system is more reliable and trustworthy than fiat/commodity, when all it does is
limit growth. They also provide zero answer for the basic thought of classical economics, that is that everyone acts individually in their own interest. They also sadly assume uniform ideals, the fundamental problem with communism. I move for a vote to close this nonsense.
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Money is a fucked system, but this wont work any better.
People claiming money is a method of FAIR trade, obviously dont realise people who kick balls around are paid 1000x more then heart surgeons who save countless lives a month.
Or corporate assholes who sit in fancy recliner chairs signing paperwork they dont read earn100x more then their workers who work 18 hour days, are stressed to shit and can barely feed their families.
Money isnt a fair, or right system, there just isnt any better method due to greed and power hungry human's. Its in our nature to be wankers tbh.
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On May 05 2012 16:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 16:04 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 15:31 Szordrin wrote:
Not this again... Don't we have a Zeitgeist / Fresco Thread already? It's all the same more less, some dreamy people not understanding how the world works and saying how it should work while neglecting (more or less) all reason. because the people who thought up the current system ages ago knew so much more, right? ^^ The current system is not static. It's been developed over time through research and trial and error. In other words it's not some scheme dreamed up by a few people with a massive God complex but rather the collective knowledge of what actually works in real life.
U can't be serious.. It's not static? So why do we still have to engage in pointless labor just provide to ourselves when it can be automated already? Why do politicians and corporations with no tehnical background get to decide social matters? Why do we hesitate to switch the energy infrastructure to more sustainable means when it is clear the one now is destroying the environment?
There is no trial and error involved whatsoever, just a continued pursuit of profit without any regard to the implications.
God complex? These people just see the flaw of the system which is pretty clear nowadays (just read some yahoo news celebrities and their salaries even though their social contribution is null) and provide a solution. Actually, the people who dreamed up this system believed it to be god's will...
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On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:32 Fubi wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand  Living space is a resource and is limited. we have plenty of space on earth. we can build on and under the ocean, up in the sky (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000), and underground. by the time we cover all this land, we will probably colonize space and attain even more resources. by the way, the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related.
You don't get it; living space doesn't simply mean MINIMUM amount of living space. If everyone gets everything for free, then the only other thing they want is EXTRA living space. I mean we all want this now already don't we? Sure, anyone can potentially live their rest of their life in a small room, but we all want MORE space, more than what it is needed; and there will never be enough of living space to satisfy everyone's wants. And therefore, living space will always be a scarce resource. Everyone would want a mansion and a pool with a golf course in their back yard; good luck getting that for 15 billion+ people in the near future.
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On May 06 2012 00:00 Capped wrote:
Money is a fucked system, but this wont work any better.
People claiming money is a method of FAIR trade, obviously dont realise people who kick balls around are paid 1000x more then heart surgeons who save countless lives a month.
Or corporate assholes who sit in fancy recliner chairs signing paperwork they dont read earn100x more then their workers who work 18 hour days, are stressed to shit and can barely feed their families.
Money isnt a fair, or right system, there just isnt any better method due to greed and power hungry human's. Its in our nature to be wankers tbh.
fair is a place where you go and feed the pigs.
"people who kick balls around"? you mean professional sportsman? you mean the athletes who work as hard as they can for years and years and years putting themselves in peak physical condition, only for the slim chance that they MIGHT be even mediocre professional players that can make some money doing that extremely hard job? besides, which doctor ever complained about not making enough money?
i don't think there are many corporations where it's the low level workers putting in the 18/hr days and the top level guys are just sitting around doing nothing. that's an image that has no actual basis in the reality for 99.9% of all corporations.
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On May 06 2012 00:55 xeo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 16:22 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 16:04 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 15:31 Szordrin wrote:
Not this again... Don't we have a Zeitgeist / Fresco Thread already? It's all the same more less, some dreamy people not understanding how the world works and saying how it should work while neglecting (more or less) all reason. because the people who thought up the current system ages ago knew so much more, right? ^^ The current system is not static. It's been developed over time through research and trial and error. In other words it's not some scheme dreamed up by a few people with a massive God complex but rather the collective knowledge of what actually works in real life. U can't be serious.. It's not static? So why do we still have to engage in pointless labor just provide to ourselves when it can be automated already? Why do politicians and corporations with no tehnical background get to decide social matters? Why do we hesitate to switch the energy infrastructure to more sustainable means when it is clear the one now is destroying the environment?
Because it isn't pointless labor. You can't just say "herp derp let's automate" when YOU have no technical background that says a current job worked by a human would be better off automated by a machine. Machines are NOT FREE. If you dedicate more resources to building more machines to automate, then you have fewer resources for consumer goods - the stuff that people ultimately want. If you think there really are tons of meaningless jobs that could be automated please give the examples along with your cost / benefit analysis.
Changing the energy infrastructure is not easy. Solar panels are incredibly expensive, as are other types of alternatives. So when you switch to them electricity becomes more expensive which isn't fun for the average person.
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This is almost exactly like The Venus Project, except this is explained very poorly. http://www.thevenusproject.com has a lot of info on this kind of system and goes into a lot more detail.
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People do realize money isnt the problem right? Money is merely a tool of efficiency. Instead of offering a product or labour, for some sort of item or good as payment, everything is ascribed a value, and the appropriate amount of money is given to compensate you. You may then turn that money into whatever good you so please.
In the past, you would have to trade your goods or services, directly for other goods. If I wanted food for example, and I was a smith lets say, I would directly trade my goods to a farmer for food. Now say this farmer didnt need my goods. What would I give him to acquire the food I wanted? Would the farmer be expected to find a third party to trade my goods for something else he wished for? Money just simplifies these exchanges.
If you want a central "power" to redistribute everything, that complicates things even more than a moenyless bartering system (which is already overly stupid and complicated). Whoever is charged with the power of doing so, due to every possible historical model, and our understanding of human greed and thirst for power, will somehow mess it up, and cause the system to be unjust. I truly believe there is a 0% chance of a system like that working. I would bet everything I own against it without thinking twice.
Things may not be perfect, but they are about as fair as they have ever been. At no other point in history were things as peaceful as they are now (although it may not seem like it), as safe as they are now, and never has there been as much support for the lower class as there is now. Things are nowhere near perfect, but its the best its been. No need to take steps backward to try to achieve some sort of silly system that is similar to many systems that failed horribly.
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A monetary system in the wrong hands always ends up as ultimate power in this day and age. Check out the documentary, "The Money Masters" if you want to see how our monetary system has been manipulated throughout the ages. I'm not convinced we're ready for a no-money system just yet.
I think the solution lies in WHO controls the money. Money is almost necessary right now to facilitate the passing of goods and services from providers to the consumer base. This accelerates economic growth, and in turn allows for a much easier trading system since money is universal and can be exchanged for anything whereas a barter system has varying values and a lot of drawbacks.
The real problem is that people have stopped looking at money as what it is. A commodity. When 1 power creates and manipulates all the money, they control commerce, trade speed, job markets, real estate, etc. I submit to you that that is total control. When you think of money as a product and not some almighty force you just HAVE to slave away for, it becomes more apparent that we are slaves to money instead of money being a servant of man. Money is nothing more than a priduct like computers, raw materials, etc. Its always in demand, nobody ever has enough, and the market for it is practically limitless.
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Humans as social beingshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag&feature=g-vrec&context=G26812aeRVAAAAAAAAAQ
If you consider yourself a social educated person(a gamer with an open mind + internet) There is no way you dont recognize these directions.
How many people are you willing to kill to maintain your static identity? 10 ? 50 million ? other people around the globe are paying for our ignorance, with swollen bellies.
Our fathers worked harder then us as did their fathers, And its all thanks to technology recognize that and stop killing people with your opinion.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-holt-gimenez/world-hunger_b_1463429.html
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Mmmmmm so... what ever i am entitled to and can receive... the homeless man down the block who doesnt work or anything. gets aswell?
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On May 06 2012 03:02 DeathCompany wrote:
Mmmmmm so... what ever i am entitled to and can receive... the homeless man down the block who doesnt work or anything. gets aswell?
You think u work hard ? Your think you work harder then a 16 hour sweatshop laborer that works for less then a dollar? You are siphoning of the stockmarket exploiting the rest of the world. If that hobo isen't entitled to anything your entitled to half of a dollar a day. We all live on welfare from our countries whether we work or not.
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As i and many have said, money will be replaced by something else. and what people forget is we will all be averaged out to a global scale, so 1pc for 20 people, 1tv for 15, 3people will live in 1 room etc. basically we will all be quite poor.
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On May 06 2012 03:29 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:02 DeathCompany wrote:
Mmmmmm so... what ever i am entitled to and can receive... the homeless man down the block who doesnt work or anything. gets aswell? You think u work hard ? Your think you work harder then a 16 hour sweatshop laborer that works for less then a dollar? You are siphoning of the stockmarket exploiting the rest of the world. If that hobo isen't entitled to anything your entitled to half of a dollar a day. We all live on welfare from our countries whether we work or not.
Those events are indeed unfortunate to see, but the idea you are suggesting (that the laborer becomes equally paid as say, a heart surgeon) is the equivalent of communism. Fair wages are definitely possible within a capitalist system.
What are you suggesting we do about them?
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On May 06 2012 03:34 Goozen wrote:
As i and many have said, money will be replaced by something else. and what people forget is we will all be averaged out to a global scale, so 1pc for 20 people, 1tv for 15, 3people will live in 1 room etc. basically we will all be quite poor.
we have the technology and resources to easily make 7 billion PC 7 billion cell phones 7 billlion apartments/houses.
And the stuff wont be built to fail after warrenty it will be built to be exchangable recycling meaning u can update your phone for a better version maybe specialized for whatever your intresst might be.
If You took every car every cell phone every TV that had been lost to cyclical consumption it will greatly exceed 7 billion.
ownage is useless access i everything.
its more efficent to Stream a movie then it is to download burn it down and save it forever. Same goes for cars,boats.
When you become aware whats possible and in some places been done you get furious the rest of the world hasent kept up.
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On May 06 2012 03:29 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:02 DeathCompany wrote:
Mmmmmm so... what ever i am entitled to and can receive... the homeless man down the block who doesnt work or anything. gets aswell? You think u work hard ? Your think you work harder then a 16 hour sweatshop laborer that works for less then a dollar? You are siphoning of the stockmarket exploiting the rest of the world. If that hobo isen't entitled to anything your entitled to half of a dollar a day. We all live on welfare from our countries whether we work or not.
The sweatshop laborer doesn't get paid as much because he's not as productive. Now, it's not his fault, he DOES work hard, but he doesn't have the productive infrastructure (machines, transportation, etc.) that western workers have.
This problem gets solved over time by the capital markets and international corporations. Since workers in foreign countries are cheaper it is more profitable to make stuff there. That profit motive entices businesses to invest in those countries. Over time those investments make the workers more productive and their wages rise.
That's not just theory. That's what has happened and continues to happen to this day and it has uplifted hundred of millions of people out of grinding absolute poverty.
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Without having read the majority of the comments and just addressing the OP: This is just stupid. Money basically serves three purposes, all which are well known and I guess have been mentioned already. The thing is, money is efficient. If any at all, it is the system or the people that use it. People of course cannot be changed (imo) and the system is debatable, although I don't think that there will ever be a system that serves the people. Not sure what I'm really saying right here, just that money is NOT the root of all evil.
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Money is the tie we need in order to ascend to a world where resources are nigh-infinite and abundant. Only then can a free society work. If resources are still limited, there will always be a bigger value attached to it than something that isn't that limited. It doesn't matter what that value is, money or no money.
Taking power out of the equation of humanity is out of the question until such a resource-infinite world exists. Go ahead, think of a society where everyone is on his own. Naturally people will cling together for safety, those groups will then fend off other groups battling for resources until one group is so big that it can't be defeated by exterior parties. Its how monarchy or dictatorships came to be.
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EPT
