|
On May 05 2012 14:50 xeo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand  No they can't be free! Just because you take money away doesn't mean that it is free. Someone has to make it. You can't just suddenly order up infinite solar panels. You need to build more factories, more machines, open more mines, train more workers, etc. Did you know that if food, and everything else for that matter, was "free" even more would be wasted? I assume people would be more eager to build everything we need to support a system that benefits them, not just a private minority like today. why would more food be wasted? currently it is wasted because someone paid for it so by 'right' you have to throw it away.
Back in the day we called this a barter system, there's a reason it's archaic....
|
On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:
the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related.
Now now. Things take land. Food won't grow itself.
Someone correct my math if I'm wrong, but if 7 billion people were in TX each person would have about 0.00004 square mile, which is 0.025 acre, not 0.25.
Texas is 268820 square miles, divided by 7000000000 = 0.00004 square mile per person. Convert 0.00004 square mile into acres and you get 0.025, which means that there would be 40 people per acre. We'd drown in our own filth.
|
On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:32 Fubi wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand Living space is a resource and is limited. we have plenty of space on earth. we can build on and under the ocean, up in the sky (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000), and underground. by the time we cover all this land, we will probably colonize space and attain even more resources. by the way, the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related.
You keep giving us all these facts, where do you get them from?
Texas is 268,820 square miles. This is 172044800 acres. The entire world's population at 0.25 acres per person would take up 1.75 billion acres, or about 10x the size of Texas.
|
On May 05 2012 14:45 Etrnity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. You suggest that the sun will always shine, that the wind will always blow sufficiently, that the moon will always circulate, that the earth will always be warm. You believe that elements will never lose energy. We know that the universe is losing energy and that what was once ordered is descending into chaos. I'm not sure on what you beliefs are in regard to the future, but we always have, and always will have limited resources.
I agreed with you on most of your points but solar energy is really basically free energy for as long as we're concerned about human existence which I'm sure... That's what we care about ^^
Even on cloudy days solar power plants can store energy on excess rays during sunny days.
UV radiation is still light even if it is cloudy.
For billions of years: the sun will always shine and the moon will always circulate (I mean seriously dude haha). For a shorter but still significant time scale the geothermal hot spots will be warm for a very long time as well.
As for the second law of thermodynamics you quoted, I guess you could say by that logic that humans existing beats entropy because we're pretty darn ordered.
For the time scale we're concerned, these are essentially unlimited!
|
On May 05 2012 14:55 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:32 Fubi wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand Living space is a resource and is limited. we have plenty of space on earth. we can build on and under the ocean, up in the sky (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000), and underground. by the time we cover all this land, we will probably colonize space and attain even more resources. by the way, the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related. You keep giving us all these facts, where do you get them from? Texas is 268,820 square miles. This is 172044800 acres. The entire world's population at 0.25 acres per person would take up 1.75 billion acres, or about 10x the size of Texas.
even if it is 10X the size of Texas that's not very much land. There's still plenty more land on the Earth. That's the point.
|
Mind posting up a poll on the front page? I get the feeling only you (xeo1) and a handful is pro-whatever this policy is.
|
On May 05 2012 14:50 xeo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand No they can't be free! Just because you take money away doesn't mean that it is free. Someone has to make it. You can't just suddenly order up infinite solar panels. You need to build more factories, more machines, open more mines, train more workers, etc. Did you know that if food, and everything else for that matter, was "free" even more would be wasted? I assume people would be more eager to build everything we need to support a system that benefits them, not just a private minority like today. why would more food be wasted? currently it is wasted because someone paid for it so by 'right' you have to throw it away.
So if it's free and I waste it what happens? I get shot or something? I really don't understand your logic in saying that something free is wasted less than something that gets paid for.
More eager to build everything? Please, you said yourself you want things to be free so that you can "... visit Switzerland, Sweden, New Zealand, Iceland, and so many other places, but I'm restricted because of money."
What is everyone's incentive to build more factories when everything is free? Why not go on vacation? Or stop doing a job that needs to be done for a job that you want to do?
|
On May 05 2012 15:01 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:45 Etrnity wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. You suggest that the sun will always shine, that the wind will always blow sufficiently, that the moon will always circulate, that the earth will always be warm. You believe that elements will never lose energy. We know that the universe is losing energy and that what was once ordered is descending into chaos. I'm not sure on what you beliefs are in regard to the future, but we always have, and always will have limited resources. I agreed with you on most of your points but solar energy is really basically free energy for as long as we're concerned about human existence which I'm sure... That's what we care about ^^ Even on cloudy days solar power plants can store energy on excess rays during sunny days. UV radiation is still light even if it is cloudy. For billions of years: the sun will always shine and the moon will always circulate (I mean seriously dude haha). For a shorter but still significant time scale the geothermal hot spots will be warm for a very long time as well. As for the second law of thermodynamics you quoted, I guess you could say by that logic that humans existing beats entropy because we're pretty darn ordered. For the time scale we're concerned, these are essentially unlimited!
A person grows, peaks, and then slowly withers until death. Order led to disorder. And I know full and well the projection for how long our galaxy will last, that's why I added beliefs in regard to the future. Some believe that we need to leave this planet (Stephen Hawking), while others are content to believe that we are just going to end, and others believe that there are other outcomes which I won't discuss on TL out of respect for the moderation staff <3
|
On May 05 2012 15:04 Perdac Curall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:55 SnipedSoul wrote:On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:32 Fubi wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand Living space is a resource and is limited. we have plenty of space on earth. we can build on and under the ocean, up in the sky (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000), and underground. by the time we cover all this land, we will probably colonize space and attain even more resources. by the way, the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related. You keep giving us all these facts, where do you get them from? Texas is 268,820 square miles. This is 172044800 acres. The entire world's population at 0.25 acres per person would take up 1.75 billion acres, or about 10x the size of Texas. even if it is 10X the size of Texas that's not very much land. There's still plenty more land on the Earth. That's the point.
We're not going to cut down all the forests, blow up all the mountains, and force people to live in deserts or antartica are we?
|
On May 05 2012 15:04 Perdac Curall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:55 SnipedSoul wrote:On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:32 Fubi wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand Living space is a resource and is limited. we have plenty of space on earth. we can build on and under the ocean, up in the sky (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000), and underground. by the time we cover all this land, we will probably colonize space and attain even more resources. by the way, the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related. You keep giving us all these facts, where do you get them from? Texas is 268,820 square miles. This is 172044800 acres. The entire world's population at 0.25 acres per person would take up 1.75 billion acres, or about 10x the size of Texas. even if it is 10X the size of Texas that's not very much land. There's still plenty more land on the Earth. That's the point.
10X the size of Texas for 0.25 acre of land per person takes up a LOT of space, especially considering that you can't take ALL the land. Can't take off all the trees, some land is barren and can only host a handful of people, inhabiting some land too much would just break down ecosystems too badly.... There are plenty of issues with this.
|
If we go to matter-anti-matter annihilation propulsion in the next century we could plausibly be colonizing habitable planets several light years away within the next 200 years. Just going to fusion based rocketry could allow us control over the entire solar system's resources within 50 years if we pursued it and there was funding for it, but that's a whole other issue. This is the total opposite of the green movement's bleak resource scarce future where we de-industrialize and de-populate and basically wait for the next asteroid to wipe us out. We should be developing fusion powered beam weapons to protect the Earth. We are the only animal that can protect all other animals from cosmic annihilation using our science and technology to its fullest potential. That is the true green policy.
|
On May 05 2012 15:04 Perdac Curall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:55 SnipedSoul wrote:On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:32 Fubi wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand Living space is a resource and is limited. we have plenty of space on earth. we can build on and under the ocean, up in the sky (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000), and underground. by the time we cover all this land, we will probably colonize space and attain even more resources. by the way, the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related. You keep giving us all these facts, where do you get them from? Texas is 268,820 square miles. This is 172044800 acres. The entire world's population at 0.25 acres per person would take up 1.75 billion acres, or about 10x the size of Texas. even if it is 10X the size of Texas that's not very much land. There's still plenty more land on the Earth. That's the point.
Current estimates would put livable land, that is land that isn't just a block of ice or unlivable desert about about 5 times the 0.25 acres per person, accounting for the 10x size of Texas error. I could be wrong in my math here, but that's not a lot of space, considering you still have to plant all these devices, and account for the increased amount of population that would be derived from "unlimited resources"...eventually you would have to engage in sterilization, good luck on that one =p
|
On May 05 2012 15:08 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 15:04 Perdac Curall wrote:On May 05 2012 14:55 SnipedSoul wrote:On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:32 Fubi wrote:On May 05 2012 14:27 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 05 2012 14:12 xeo1 wrote:On May 05 2012 13:53 windsupernova wrote:
Wait so did we invent unlimited resources already?
Did we beat entropy?
That is awesome! energy through solar, wind, wave, geothermal means; food through aeroponics/hydroponics and vertical farming; water through ocean desalination. and using whatever resources we have now to create a better infrastructure as opposed to them being privatized and sold for the sake of profit to those who have the purchasing power while leaving the rest empty-handed. Everything you listed is NOT FREE! The all require resources that are NOT infinite. they could be free if we want them to be. we have way more of them than oil, the sun will keep shining for about 5 more billion years and the ocean/wind/earth's core will keep flowing for about the same amount of time, and food we can always grow especially if we manage them wisely as opposed to the current wastefulness. did you know about 40 percent of all food today goes to waste? I have seen it firsthand Living space is a resource and is limited. we have plenty of space on earth. we can build on and under the ocean, up in the sky (example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Seed_4000), and underground. by the time we cover all this land, we will probably colonize space and attain even more resources. by the way, the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related. You keep giving us all these facts, where do you get them from? Texas is 268,820 square miles. This is 172044800 acres. The entire world's population at 0.25 acres per person would take up 1.75 billion acres, or about 10x the size of Texas. even if it is 10X the size of Texas that's not very much land. There's still plenty more land on the Earth. That's the point. 10X the size of Texas for 0.25 acre of land per person takes up a LOT of space, especially considering that you can't take ALL the land. Can't take off all the trees, some land is barren and can only host a handful of people, inhabiting some land too much would just break down ecosystems too badly.... There are plenty of issues with this.
The US is approx 14 times what Texas is in area. So it is not even the whole US. That means the whole world living in the US with the entire rest of the world as our farm and water resources. There is still plenty of land and plenty of resources. If we were to move to fusion energy we could mine any rock on Earth economically. Look up the fusion torch. Mankind is unique in that we have no natural resources outside of our own sovereign ability to create them. During the Apollo program they were predicting a manned mission to Mars by 1985. We are way behind where we should be. We are a one planet species that should already be a two-planet species.
|
Not this again... Don't we have a Zeitgeist / Fresco Thread already? It's all the same more less, some dreamy people not understanding how the world works and saying how it should work while neglecting (more or less) all reason.
|
On May 05 2012 14:54 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:46 xeo1 wrote:
the world's whole population can fit into Texas with 0.25 acres per person to spare. the only limiting factor really is money related. Now now. Things take land. Food won't grow itself. Someone correct my math if I'm wrong, but if 7 billion people were in TX each person would have about 0.00004 square mile, which is 0.025 acre, not 0.25. Texas is 268820 square miles, divided by 7000000000 = 0.00004 square mile per person. Convert 0.00004 square mile into acres and you get 0.025, which means that there would be 40 people per acre. We'd drown in our own filth.
you're right, I didn't do the calculation, but the point is this: we have plenty of space still. like I mentioned before, we have yet to build on the ocean or vertical cities.
|
On May 05 2012 15:31 Szordrin wrote:
Not this again... Don't we have a Zeitgeist / Fresco Thread already? It's all the same more less, some dreamy people not understanding how the world works and saying how it should work while neglecting (more or less) all reason.
because the people who thought up the current system ages ago knew so much more, right? ^^
|
On May 05 2012 16:04 xeo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 15:31 Szordrin wrote:
Not this again... Don't we have a Zeitgeist / Fresco Thread already? It's all the same more less, some dreamy people not understanding how the world works and saying how it should work while neglecting (more or less) all reason. because the people who thought up the current system ages ago knew so much more, right? ^^
The current system is not static. It's been developed over time through research and trial and error.
In other words it's not some scheme dreamed up by a few people with a massive God complex but rather the collective knowledge of what actually works in real life.
|
On May 05 2012 14:20 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:18 rackdude wrote:On May 05 2012 07:12 Ottoxlol wrote:
please look up what communism did to the world.
remove this garbage from TL pls. Show me a country that was ever communist. Lol, that is the paradox (if you don't get it, read about communism and you will find out why if you ever name a communist state you just named a state that wasn't communist). That's because communism can not be achieved every country that has tried has failed miserably for one of the many reasons it fails before it even begins.
I think the point was that communism calls for destruction of state. So communist state or country is not possible and contradiction in the definition already, not implementation.
|
Edit: referring to xeo1.
Exactly. Take a look at economic history, how all this developed. There are reasons why we are here at this point with this current system. There is no world conspiracy or whatever... Of course we have entrenched elites trying to keep their power (it has been like that for at least the last 2000 years...) and of course there are some things going wrong here (environmental destruction, rich/poor differences, extreme poverty etc.), but a "new world charter", completely different economic systems etc. are just dreamy, idealistic and most of the time dangerous.
Try to imagine the process of the (forced) implication of any of these fancy ideas (most of which are old or based on old failed concepts). I can guarantee you extreme societal disruptions, deaths by the billions and possibly World War 3.
Now go think again about how to change the world...
PS: I would be really interested about the background of people proposing such stuff. Age, education, knowledge etc... I have some people thinking similarly in my social surroundings and frankly they don't understand a whole lot about economics, politics or whatever. These ideas sound good to them somehow and they like it... It's similar to populistic xenophobia in other social classes...
|
On May 05 2012 16:37 Szordrin wrote:
Of course we have entrenched elites trying to keep their power .
It's funny 'cause you're from Switzerland.
And to people saying "Why would I even do anything if everything's free?", it could be for social acceptance, appreciation etc. There are people in Germany working, getting less money than they would if they were unemployed. Because unemployed people are looked down upon.
However, I study law, and I am 100% positive that no one would do law things if it wasn't for the money. It certainly isn't for the joy of learning libraries by heart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
