EPTEnjoy, I am done with this train wreck.
The Venus Project - Page 11
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
Enjoy, I am done with this train wreck. | ||
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Klyberess
Sweden345 Posts
Certainly not something we could put into practice tomorrow, or even something we should strive to move towards (yet), but maybe once we have an abundance of resources (which I do believe will happen, unless something goes seriously awry before then). With no shortage, people's mentalities might well shift, which is really the most important pre-requisite for utopian projects like this. It's a good thing, I think, to remember that while it is hard to see beyond the system we live in today, technological advancements might well help bring about a situation with entirely different possibilities (directly through greater abundance, indirectly through how the advancements change people's mentalities). Speculation about the future, as fun as it is, tends to look stupid in hindsight. I don't think saying "we've never had abundance, therefore we'll never have it" or "people have always been driven by greed, therefore they always will be" makes much sense. Each day we achieve things we barely dared dream of a century ago. While it is important to remember that there are good reasons we use the systems we do, I believe it is also important not to see them as set in stone, but as something we must use for now, the situation being what it is. It seems reasonable that there is no one system which is the optimal one regardless of the state of the world. I do apologise for my vagueness -- as I said, I'm not familiar with the details of this project, nor am I knowledgeable when it comes to economic theory. | ||
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GenghisKhan
United Kingdom68 Posts
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Toasterbaked
United States160 Posts
On May 30 2012 10:54 DeliCiousVP wrote: The westen world is shifting first we have the highest access to informaton the most opportunity as people become more general versed in subjects more educated they start clamouring. This is already happenening world wide in the western world we dont accept going backwards like we used to we dont accept depressions anymore. There will be opposition from the ruling class yes and as minority slowly starts turning into a majority things can go bad depending on what the opposition is. If they killed a few protesters in OWS the whole nation would flare up like kindling. The only way to stop our switch from a monetary system to a RBE is to disable the free forms of communication such as the internet. Heavy legislature or temporary shuting down the internet nationwide for "security" reasons is the most efficient way to do things. If i was a oligarch-banker i would be doing everything in my power to get censor up on the internet ASAP. You speak to the people directly ignoring the goverments and you met force with force without public support they are useless. Depends on the conditionality they received on the loan to develop their infrastructure, Hey you got oil but you cant mine it without these and dont even try without this loan. Loan is to big cant repay refinance demand lower oil prices as a condionality that is one of the reason US got among the cheapest oil. Go back and see what i qouted and why or ignore. It is already known that it dont work it was recently proven by the lack of legislature that led to the collapse and that the American people had to buy for wall streets fun time. To big to fail ? my ass! Thats awesome! I like how all the exploited countries were on one side. Monetary system is a monetary system. and in a monetary system we have winners and loses obesity and starvation. GDP rise while americs health goes down. tells you all you need to know of "wealth" Okay. So you think everyone who lives in the same crap as everyone will be happy? I won't be. You can't really work directly for your own stuff, so you're stuck with whatever value of something everyone else has I'd hate to be in that situation... Seems awfully oppressive to me too... Say you want to trade a few of your speakers and furniture with your neighbor's car. Oh wait! Let's make that more convenient and use a paper contract to keep tabs on which side has what value of which! *Gets sent to jail/mental institution, never returned again* EDIT: If they killed a few protesters in OWS the whole nation would flare up like kindling. The only way to stop our switch from a monetary system to a RBE is to disable the free forms of communication such as the internet. The only way to stop the spread of RBE is to make sure that everyone alive has a logical mind. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
Anyone joining this thread, I would simply advise you not to bother arguing with DeliCiousVP, he seems to think random assertions and just throwing in as many 'cool' sounding phrases as possible is how to debate. Plus he is near-unintelligable. Peace out Second time you jump in just to attack me please grow some stones.Dont be afraid to get in on the "discussion" Okay. So you think everyone who lives in the same crap as everyone will be happy? I won't be. You can't really work directly for your own stuff, so you're stuck with whatever value of something everyone else has I'd hate to be in that situation... You wont be happy when you have true freedom and access to everything you desire and need? The best healthcare in the world the possibility to live forever? Fine you have the freedom to step outside of the system like that if you wanna start your own monetary commune pack a bag and go it would be like a cival war reinactment good fun ill come with. Seems awfully oppressive to me too... Say you want to trade a few of your speakers and furniture with your neighbor's car. Trade whats that? Everything he have you can get for free? whats the dealio here? Oh wait! Let's make that more convenient and use a paper contract to keep tabs on which side has what value of which! *Gets sent to jail/mental institution, never returned again* Jails ? you think there will be jails? 90% of all crime is monetary related. Granted there will be mental insitutions but psychology and enviromental studies should almost eliminate their use. I just saw the movie To big to fail. Go take a look. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1742683/ | ||
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Lynzh
Korea (North)17 Posts
The economy is on the brink of failure, as it has been in the past, it is now. People are out of work, food, shelter and jobs are scarce. People cry to the government for options. The government does not care, the government is there to keep things the way they are and to maintain their supporters loyalty. A dictatorship needs a small amount of their supporters for reelection; maybe 1% but a fully working democracy needs more; (up to 51% I would say) between these two numbers that I pulled out of my ass is how a governemnt continues to function. A governemnt functions as long as they pay their military and put some wealth (food, shelter) in their supporters pockets. These needs must be met every month and every year for a working political party to rule. A democracy elects somewhat better leaders than dictatorships do, but by a small margin. Lets take a corporate structure and break it down; At the top of the corporate foodchain is the head chief, under him are his board members, his board members function as his political party. In a corporate culture there is only one ruling political party and its the board members. Go down the next level and you have paid staffers doing office jobs, another level down you have employees doing manual labor. Some do not have this level. The level of employed staff doing manual labor is being changed out by automation. By automation I mean applied technology doing labor for you! (Robots) Different levels of paid work in a corporation vary, some have a lot of staff, some very little but most people employed in the corporation get their orders or duties above them. People above them get their work schedules from a chain over themselves again, this cycle of where you get your orders from rises to the top all the way to the board members of the corporation and then to the chief of said corporation. A corporation is a dictatorship. When I go to work doing manual labor I ask my nearest in command, whats do you need? He answers and I do what he tells me. I dont like it but it pays just enough to have me return on the next day. My job is repetative but I can continue since the environment (collegues) is good, we share a laugh, talk shit and excersise breaks together or alone. Where was i? The economy is on the brink of destruction and my corporation faces laying off people to survive or automate jobs. Laying off people is the surest way to survive short term. But automation is the best way to survive long term. Automation is not within reach in my line of work yet, so they will be laying off people. Do I care that my corporation will lay off people? Yeah I kinda do, people have loans and insurances that must be paid to support the economy. But does it really matter? No. Long term my corporation or dictatorship-style ruled company will be bankrupt and another will take its place. Maybe one with more automation and less manual labor taskforce. Ask yourself this, does a corporation mind firing people? False. A corporation will do anything to survive and will fire both you and me if it has to. There is no need to talk about your feelings when dealing with a company OR a government. Both of them do not care about you or your feelings, a government does not care about your needs. I think people care about people. If a time should come when the economy is brinked to destruction, a new paper money value system will take its place. I think corporations eat other corporations, like currency systems eat other currency systems. One will take the place of another. It will fail in time for another to take its place. This cycle will continue until enough people refuse to participate. Thinking small scale about my own needs. When I think about my own needs my first thought comes to energy. I want to be free of the monatery system but I must relinquish my chains by producing my own energy, or making my shelter energy efficient. I dont know if I am phrasing this in the right way but I want my home and my way of producing energy wedlocked, If I put my personal time and energy into building a houseboat, or a house on a boat, I would continue investing my time into harvesting wave energy to power my floating shelter and fishing for producing food. If I build my shelter in the highland woods I would invest my time into researching wind or solar energy to power my shelter, and hunt or lay seeds to harvest food. I think about what I would do If i didnt support the current economic power structure all the time and when debating wether or not a Resource Based Economy would or would not work is besides the point. It will take an apocalypse before we ever built one This turned into somewhat of a rant and my thoughts on the current system, if you read it all, good for you. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
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Anon06
United States203 Posts
People are ignorant and self centered, they don't realize that their environment shaped them while growing up and they think whatever they believe is correct or the truth. What we would need to do is colonize another planet with open minded supporters of an RBE. I would suggest creating a large spaceship; loading it with open minded supporters (who will try their hardest not to pass on earths bad habits to their children), enough materials to build a city or two upon arrival, a self sufficient ecosystem to provide during the journey, and an ark of earths species (most likely in embryo form or cryo-frozen adults). Then setting off in the direction of the nearest planet we can inhabit. Now the journey would span generations as even the nearest hospitable planet is far as hell and the journey itself would serve as practice running an RBE/ teaching our youth not to be douche bags. I believe my way is more plausible than everyone on earth accepting an RBE or governments declaring resources as common heritage because with enough funding and 20 or 50 years of automated labor the ship could be built (probably in orbit?). oh and once the planet is well established with multiple functioning cities we blow up earth with our superior science to make sure those douches never decide to stop on by and taint out sh*t. XD edit: there's also the possibility of mining resources off asteroids and/or uninhabitable planets along the way with the use of automated mining tools like planetary resources plans to do. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
I'm in favor of the theory of a RBE but unfortunately I believe it would never work on earth. There are too many differences between how each person was raised, their language, culture and religion which will always lead to conflict or non acceptance. People are ignorant and self centered, they don't realize that their environment shaped them while growing up and they think whatever they believe is correct or the truth. ![[image loading]](http://www.pbs.org/pov/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/kony-2012-nothing-is-more-powerful-than-an-idea-whose-time-has-come-300x164.jpg) Don't you worry we wont need another planet, It is already common knowledge that politicians and the political process is corrupt and a joke it wont take long for the "majority" to put two and two together. And understand that the monetary system is the inherit cause of so many of our problems. OWS is a start the Canadians are a little further along in Montreal, But most people don't know how frail our monetary system is right now all it takes is a mouse fart to bring it down. | ||
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KaasZerg
Netherlands927 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.kekkai.org/google/devilsadvocate/alpha-centauri-pic4.png) Alpha Centauri by Sid Meier follows such a sceneario. DeliCiousVP: I really wish RBE could work or communism could have worked but it didn't. It has unrepaireble flaws grounded in human nature. I wish I could believe it. But I think it is a pipedream. It could work in a computersimulation maybe. I guess even that is a stretch. The only thing we can work on is advancing our culture. A technological overlord system is a nightmare. But the RBE has no sytem no substance and no strucure. There is no coordinating proces. There is no science of Social engeneering TVP is talking about. It was a concept explored by economist and sociologist in the 80-ties and 90-ties and burried as a scientific and political dead end. Global outlines aren't enough for implementing anything. There is nothing to study. Marx and Engels had a vision of the future. It did not transpire as they thought it would. Their ideas seeped into societies in a different way then they imagined. Most countries did not become communistic. Communism got hijacked by politicians riding the system. I do not think of TVP as revolutionairies or even visionairies. It is a hodgepodge of ideas pulled together that already existed before. Im afraid TVP has potential to get hijacked by Stalinism. But in the end I believe there will be no transition into such a system. edit I had not read the post above me. I was reacting to the post by Anon06 obviously | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
DeliCiousVP: I really wish RBE could work or communism could have worked but it didn't. Communism is a monetary idealoigy not a technology based resource based economy. I personally think communism-totalitarian is a horrible government module in a monetary system. What seems to work the best is a Social democracy, basically the Nordic model that have pretty free markets but social values that encourages creativity and a sense of social responsibility, Like Canada Sweden and some even think that Japan falls under a similar system. Under regulated markets however collapse constantly without intervention this has been proven time and time again, Forcing the government to act as a social security for the rich because they are "to big to fail" But even these countries pollute and exploit the world so their not sustainable for the future anyway. Marx and Engels had a vision of the future Aren't you quite the scholar, To start a sentence off like this. Edit: edit I had not read the post above me. I was reacting to the post by Anon06 obviously A post that wasent aimed at me? I dont know if i should be offended or well not offended still my point stand. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On May 31 2012 05:00 DeliCiousVP wrote: Communism is a monetary idealoigy not a technology based resource based economy. I personally think communism-totalitarian is a horrible government module in a monetary system. What seems to work the best is a Social democracy, basically the Nordic model that have pretty free markets but social values that encourages creativity and a sense of social responsibility, Like Canada Sweden and some even think that Japan falls under a similar system. Under regulated markets however collapse constantly without intervention this has been proven time and time again, Forcing the government to act as a social security for the rich because they are "to big to fail" But even these countries pollute and exploit the world so their not sustainable for the future anyway. Seriously, communism is a monetary ideology? " Communism (from Latin communis - common, universal) is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order. " That's the VERY first sentence in the wikipedia article, you really didn't have to search far to get to that definition. And communism never existed because NO country has fully adapted it. It was just a mix of socialism and dictatorships. Communism could work but nobody could transition to it. That's why we question if the RBE would ever get conceived because it shares so many similarities to communism ( resources distributed by government, no money ). I find the last comment about pollution and exploitation to be a silly one to make. Unless you live in complete harmony with the enviroment or create a bubble that seperates the world from the human society you will exploit the world for resources like oil, silicon, and what have you. And frankly, that comment is best left for another thread about energy efficiency ( I would love to write about all my thoughts about nuclear, wind and solar energies, but I'd hate to stink up this thread about it ). | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
I find the last comment about pollution and exploitation to be a silly one to make. Unless you live in complete harmony with the enviroment or create a bubble that seperates the world from the human society you will exploit the world for resources like oil, silicon, and what have you. And frankly, that comment is best left for another thread about energy efficiency ( I would love to write about all my thoughts about nuclear, wind and solar energies, but I'd hate to stink up this thread about it ). We can make due without polluting our environment to the extent we are today we can use clean and efficient energy sources to replace our fossil fuel dependency, It might take 5-10 years to get there tho depending on what system we are using. The most efficient sources we would have to utilize would be Solar,Tide,Geothermal because they have some of the highest value per square meter. Hydro-power and wind would be used in areas where it is offering a higher output obviously this goes for solar to some extent as well. Obviously nuclear is very efficient as well having a value of 1000/WATS per square meter compared to tide that have 6.5-8 or solar that rocks 20-25 in deserts. But i do not consider nuclear clean or safe today. Seriously, communism is a monetary ideology? " Communism (from Latin communis - common, universal) is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order. " How Karl Marx envisioned it and what actually happened is two different things, Communism is still considered a monetary ideology and it is one of the -ism. There is no room for "ideologies" in the future we need to test/try and use the scientific method to find out what works. Support a Resource based economy you creatures. http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_foley_the_other_inconvenient_truth.html | ||
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Toasterbaked
United States160 Posts
On May 30 2012 22:47 DeliCiousVP wrote: Second time you jump in just to attack me please grow some stones.Dont be afraid to get in on the "discussion" You wont be happy when you have true freedom and access to everything you desire and need? The best healthcare in the world the possibility to live forever? Fine you have the freedom to step outside of the system like that if you wanna start your own monetary commune pack a bag and go it would be like a cival war reinactment good fun ill come with. Trade whats that? Everything he have you can get for free? whats the dealio here? Jails ? you think there will be jails? 90% of all crime is monetary related. Granted there will be mental insitutions but psychology and enviromental studies should almost eliminate their use. I just saw the movie To big to fail. Go take a look. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1742683/ Sure, most of the crimes committed will be made by people who want to get a little more money for themselves, many of which I can recognize as a desperate move. Don't pull statistics out of your thin air- if you got it from somewhere, site a source for it. Oh, you can have everything for free? No limits at all? I'll go ahead and own the world. And then proceed to abolish the RBE and rule as the supreme ruler of humanity. Perhaps not as extreme as that, but you're going to hit limits. People always want more, because we get accustomed to what we already have. Don't tell me you're going to share everything- there is a reason people have their private properties. I'd much rather have a car for myself rather than share it with 3 people, even if I have a car available at all times- I'd prefer to do whatever to the car that I want to rather than having to consent with 3 different people. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
Oh, you can have everything for free? No limits at all? I'll go ahead and own the world. And then proceed to abolish the RBE and rule the supreme ruler of humanity. What is the incentive for it? People always want more, because we get accustomed to what we already have. Is there something wrong with that? Don't tell me you're going to share everything- there is a reason people have their private properties. There is a lot of stuff i will own like my tooth brush and my computer and the pillow of my deceased child, Its called sympathetic value. I'd much rather have a car for myself rather than share it with 3 people, even if I have a car available at all times- I'd prefer to do whatever to the car that I want to rather than having to consent with 3 different people. Obviously if you wanna share a car with 3 people thats your decision. Or if you wanna keep it in your "Driveway" and own it you can take that burden on you. You might not be able to remove the vobblar and some other security measures on the car that helps prevent human error in traffic, But except from that enjoy. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 31 2012 06:48 1Eris1 wrote: I thought the whole point of this society was to remove private property? Really that was the whole point? Not starvation,Pollution,wars better health, and offer a infrastructure that can shorten substantially the time it takes from design to invention to manufacture. No you are allowed to own things it just wont be desirable to "own" a car when you have full access anyway. If you keep feeding fish abundantly eventually they stop eating it each other up, and this is fish.... Migraine today wont be on goodnight guys. And please admin stop hating on me. And pretty please open my thread we need a real home. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On May 31 2012 06:57 DeliCiousVP wrote: Really that was the whole point? Not starvation,Pollution,wars better health, and offer a infrastructure that can shorten substantially the time it takes from design to invention to manufacture. No you are allowed to own things it just wont be desirable to "own" a car when you have full access anyway. If you keep feeding fish abundantly eventually they stop eating it each other up, and this is fish.... Yeah man, let's design our society based upon how fish behave. Or any other animal. Let's design it for everything but humans. Then put humans in it! Fucking great designwork there. I'll tell you personally though, I like owning things. If someone said I could have a free car, I'd take it. In fact, if given the chance in a society like this (and I would be) I would dominate others. Why? Because people are stupid, and I can (Edit: Look at it as my hobby. I must do something, right?). And what happens when I do this? Shit stops working. Furthermore, when people don't share your vision it isn't a utopia for them, now is it? | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
l tell you personally though, I like owning things. If someone said I could have a free car, I'd take it. In fact, if given the chance in a society like this (and I would be) I would dominate others. Why? Because people are stupid, Don't worry man we will fix you right back up, You will have the best psychologies to help you with your value disorder And if not you can always pack a bag go into the wild and establish your own little monetary society. I mean kids play kings and swordsmen all the time don't they so who are we to deny you, your little game, just make sure nobody gets hurt. Furthermore, when people don't share your vision it isn't a utopia for them, now is it? There is a lot of people that didn't share the idea that "negros" should be free back in the day, Or that lions shouldn't eat Christians in the Colosseum. Values shift. And nothing is a utopia only whats technologically possible there will always be problems just a lot less and much better ones ![[image loading]](http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/471442_361336907255654_146500522072628_900081_65621952_o.jpg) It is just a matter of time until people make the connection. It is everywhere you gotta be blind to not see or simply in the belief that it is irrelevant. | ||
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AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
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