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The Venus Project - Page 12

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Zealotdriver
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1557 Posts
May 31 2012 16:38 GMT
#221
Textured vegetable protein is pretty good. Rehydrate it and mix it in with ground beef or other meat.

Anyway the "resource based economy" is out of touch with real human behavior. It is a mildly entertaining academic exploration, but is forever relegated to fiction.
Turn off the radio
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 17:37:23
May 31 2012 17:06 GMT
#222
Anyway the "resource based economy" is out of touch with real human behavior. It is a mildly entertaining academic exploration, but is forever relegated to fiction.

Now that is a fictional statement. We place people in a harsh environment and expect them to behave and when they don't we lock them up beat them down harden them further.

People come out worse than when they came in, In a RBE we call this structural violence and it comes in the form of prejudice,bigotry and racism and swift collective punishment for acts of survival. People who suffered through this process could rip your head off serie rape your whole family and don't feel a itch of remorse the system made them this way. And you are talking about how a Resource based economy is out touch with human behavior? And this is in the US lets not speak of the poorer parts of the world.

Clueless!

www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 17:45:56
May 31 2012 17:38 GMT
#223
On June 01 2012 02:06 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
Anyway the "resource based economy" is out of touch with real human behavior. It is a mildly entertaining academic exploration, but is forever relegated to fiction.

Now that is a fictional statement. We place people in a harsh environment and expect them to behave and when they don't we lock them up beat them down harden them further.

People come out worse than when they came in, In a RBE we call this structural violence and it comes in the form of prejudice,bigotry and racism and swift collective punishment for acts of survival. People who suffered through this process could rip your head off serie rape your whole family and don't feel a itch of remorse the system made them this way. And you are talking about how a Resource based economy is out touch with human behavior? And this is in the US lets not speak of the poorer parts of the world.

Clueless!


Dude what? Did you just claim that the RBE solves racism? And what does "... and swift collective punishment for acts of survival" mean? Can't actually make out that sentence so please rephrase it.

Structural violence isn't an RBE term, by the way.

On June 01 2012 01:30 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
l tell you personally though, I like owning things. If someone said I could have a free car, I'd take it. In fact, if given the chance in a society like this (and I would be) I would dominate others. Why? Because people are stupid,

Don't worry man we will fix you right back up, You will have the best psychologies to help you with your value disorder

And if not you can always pack a bag go into the wild and establish your own little monetary society. I mean kids play kings and swordsmen all the time don't they so who are we to deny you, your little game, just make sure nobody gets hurt.

Show nested quote +
Furthermore, when people don't share your vision it isn't a utopia for them, now is it?

There is a lot of people that didn't share the idea that "negros" should be free back in the day, Or that lions shouldn't eat Christians in the Colosseum. Values shift.


1. What is a value disorder? Is this a commonly accepted diagnosis? What is its characteristics? Who are these "best psychologists"? Is it a machine? If it's not a machine, you must realize that very, very few people will actively practice psychology (way under what would be required) if their only motivation was to make themselves feel useful or to benefit society. If it is a machine, then how the fuck do you construct such a machine? And again, how would it diagnose this disorder?

To me, this shit reads like "You don't agree with me, so I'll send you to a special camp until you do", because that is in essense what you are saying. Indeed, this system is nothing short of a total dictatorship. It doesn't matter if you claim that it (the system) composes "optimal" values, they need to be my values (or there needs to be room for my values) or I will not be satisfied and happy as you claim I will be.

Regarding your second paragraph you hit your nail on the head on what you loony RBE people should do. You're free to do it, which is one of the wonders of capitalism. So why don't you go ahead and prove us all wrong and we'll eventually be won over?

2. Equating this debate to racism, classy.
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 17:57:36
May 31 2012 17:55 GMT
#224
On June 01 2012 02:06 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
Anyway the "resource based economy" is out of touch with real human behavior. It is a mildly entertaining academic exploration, but is forever relegated to fiction.

Now that is a fictional statement. We place people in a harsh environment and expect them to behave and when they don't we lock them up beat them down harden them further.

People come out worse than when they came in, In a RBE we call this structural violence and it comes in the form of prejudice,bigotry and racism and swift collective punishment for acts of survival. People who suffered through this process could rip your head off serie rape your whole family and don't feel a itch of remorse the system made them this way. And you are talking about how a Resource based economy is out touch with human behavior? And this is in the US lets not speak of the poorer parts of the world.

Clueless!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so3LACtae80&feature=g-user-u


So... there will be no crime in an RBE society? All crimes in a monetary society are actually acts of survival forced by harsh environmental factors?

To me, this shit reads like "You don't agree with me, so I'll send you to a special camp until you do", because that is in essense what you are saying. Indeed, this system is nothing short of a total dictatorship. It doesn't matter if you claim that it (the system) composes "optimal" values, they need to be my values (or there needs to be room for my values) or I will not be satisfied and happy as you claim I will be.


Yes, it reads like the Soviet abuse of psychiatry.

Another parallel to dictatorial socialism, quelle surprise!
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
May 31 2012 18:18 GMT
#225
On April 21 2012 04:23 xeo1 wrote:
It occurs to me that the people disagreeing either don't understand "tvp" or are so ingrained into the current system that they can't see past it (as explained in the matrix in the woman in the red dress scene).

I don't see why anyone would object to creating a world free of useless labor, war, and poverty; freedom to pursue the life you wish without a financial barrier; and decisions made based on sound science and logic as opposed to a human's opinion whose influenced mainly by money.

Today most people work in the service sector, almost all of which could be automated. Look around you, almost everything was created by machines. The ones working in the financial service sector don't contribute anything to the world, except for making money with money, hence their wealth.

Comparing this system to a system in the past is absurd. Our technological knowledge wasn't up to the task, but now it is. We can create an abundance of food via hydroponics, aeroponics, and vertical farming. The energy infrastructure can already be changed to incorporate wind, wave, solar, and geothermal sources.

What is the single factor that hinders us from adapting? The profit system.

Do you not feel that something is wrong? Politicians promising things that never get fulfilled. People dying daily to diseases we can prevent and starving even though we have plenty to go around. People like the jersey shore making millions from market value by doing absolutely nothing, while a scientist researching a cure for cancer barely gets by. War on a global scale so someone can reap from defense contracts and stolen resources, sacrificing soldiers and natives in the process. The environment degregading from pollution and extraction all tied to making profit. Going to work to conduct a mundane job to get paid to pay bills for services of rich corporations even though we could be self sustainable. Having chemicals like aspartame, bht, food coloring, hfcs, etc. because they are cheaper. Freedom speakers like JFK, John Lennon, mlk, ghandi, etc. assassinated by the system. People working and commiting suicide in sweat shops for low ages to make iPads for the rich. Important space projects like Orion cancelled.

I am simply saying there is a better way, I know a lot of us already benefit from the current system, but everyone can with a few adjustments, a logical step in our social evolution dictated by technology.

EDIT: mistakes

Can't believe this went ignored, this guy has a pretty good point.
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 18:24:15
May 31 2012 18:23 GMT
#226
On June 01 2012 03:18 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 04:23 xeo1 wrote:
It occurs to me that the people disagreeing either don't understand "tvp" or are so ingrained into the current system that they can't see past it (as explained in the matrix in the woman in the red dress scene).

I don't see why anyone would object to creating a world free of useless labor, war, and poverty; freedom to pursue the life you wish without a financial barrier; and decisions made based on sound science and logic as opposed to a human's opinion whose influenced mainly by money.

Today most people work in the service sector, almost all of which could be automated. Look around you, almost everything was created by machines. The ones working in the financial service sector don't contribute anything to the world, except for making money with money, hence their wealth.

Comparing this system to a system in the past is absurd. Our technological knowledge wasn't up to the task, but now it is. We can create an abundance of food via hydroponics, aeroponics, and vertical farming. The energy infrastructure can already be changed to incorporate wind, wave, solar, and geothermal sources.

What is the single factor that hinders us from adapting? The profit system.

Do you not feel that something is wrong? Politicians promising things that never get fulfilled. People dying daily to diseases we can prevent and starving even though we have plenty to go around. People like the jersey shore making millions from market value by doing absolutely nothing, while a scientist researching a cure for cancer barely gets by. War on a global scale so someone can reap from defense contracts and stolen resources, sacrificing soldiers and natives in the process. The environment degregading from pollution and extraction all tied to making profit. Going to work to conduct a mundane job to get paid to pay bills for services of rich corporations even though we could be self sustainable. Having chemicals like aspartame, bht, food coloring, hfcs, etc. because they are cheaper. Freedom speakers like JFK, John Lennon, mlk, ghandi, etc. assassinated by the system. People working and commiting suicide in sweat shops for low ages to make iPads for the rich. Important space projects like Orion cancelled.

I am simply saying there is a better way, I know a lot of us already benefit from the current system, but everyone can with a few adjustments, a logical step in our social evolution dictated by technology.

EDIT: mistakes

Can't believe this went ignored, this guy has a pretty good point.


It didn't:
On April 21 2012 05:06 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 04:23 xeo1 wrote:
It occurs to me that the people disagreeing either don't understand "tvp" or are so ingrained into the current system that they can't see past it (as explained in the matrix in the woman in the red dress scene).

I don't see why anyone would object to creating a world free of useless labor, war, and poverty; freedom to pursue the life you wish without a financial barrier; and decisions made based on sound science and logic as opposed to a human's opinion whose influenced mainly by money.

Noone objects to the world with those properties, people object to the method being proposed. Specifically they are saying that the method won't work as intended.

Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 04:23 xeo1 wrote:
Today most people work in the service sector, almost all of which could be automated. Look around you, almost everything was created by machines. The ones working in the financial service sector don't contribute anything to the world, except for making money with money, hence their wealth.

Some of it could be automated, some of it could be automated with extreme investments and some things we are so far from automating that for the purpose of the discussion we can say it cannot be done in any reasonable timeframe.

Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 04:23 xeo1 wrote:
Comparing this system to a system in the past is absurd. Our technological knowledge wasn't up to the task, but now it is. We can create an abundance of food via hydroponics, aeroponics, and vertical farming. The energy infrastructure can already changed to incorporate wind, wave, solar, and geothermal sources.

What is the single factor that hinders us from adapting? The profit system. People's values are tied to living for money as it provides life's necessities and more. But once we realize there is a better way, where everyone can benefit, it will be a world like never before.

EDIT: mistakes

The burden of proof is on you to show that our current technology is up to the task. And doing so would require much more than just vague mentions of few technologies.


There might be more responses, but that's the one that came to mind and I found mcc's response sufficient personally.
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 18:41:08
May 31 2012 18:40 GMT
#227
Dude what? Did you just claim that the RBE solves racism?

of course. bigotry,racism and prejudice. We will also need to build up a language that is more efficient in communicating the advanced understandings we have today.

So... there will be no crime in an RBE society? All crimes in a monetary society are actually acts of survival forced by harsh environmental factors?

What is crime? Crime is socially unaccepted behavior. Around 90% of all crimes today will disappear because they are a result from our monetary system, the harsh environment caused by inequality for example that creates the fertilized soil for inappropriate behavior, I feel however that we will be able to get rid of as much as 99% using superior schools that helps build emotional resilience and understanding.

What is a value disorder? Is this a commonly accepted diagnosis? What is its characteristics?

Naturally offensive values that do not align with the symbiotic and emergent nature of the universe and has reached the point in which you are harming yourself and people/systems around you.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
May 31 2012 19:32 GMT
#228
Around 90% of all crimes today will disappear because they are a result from our monetary system,


Are 90% of crimes committed for the intent of furthering the perpetrator's financial or material well-being?

the harsh environment caused by inequality for example that creates the fertilized soil for inappropriate behavior,


The black market will be destroyed?

I feel however that we will be able to get rid of as much as 99% using superior schools that helps build emotional resilience and understanding.


How does an RBE provide superior schooling that builds emotional resilience and understanding?

Naturally offensive values that do not align with the symbiotic and emergent nature of the universe and has reached the point in which you are harming yourself and people/systems around you.


That's fluff that doesn't really answer the question. What is a value disorder? Disagreeing with RBE? Wanting to possess private property?
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
May 31 2012 19:47 GMT
#229
Are 90% of crimes committed for the intent of furthering the perpetrator's financial or material well-being?

At least i would asume.
There not manny other crimes, only murder,mutilation and rape i can think of wich could have different motives but i doubt they more then 10% of all crimes (not counting traffic offenses)
Other crimes then economic crimes could sky rocket in an rbe btw
Noone knows what bored humans who got everything they want will try to keep themselves entertained.

What is a value disorder?
Wanting to possess privater property? <- probably this.
Overvaluing private property and items, based on the false idea that they are inherently scarce.
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 19:56:08
May 31 2012 19:48 GMT
#230
The black market will be destroyed?

What will be the incentive for it? Obviously there are some people that might want things that are considered really offensive just like today.

How does an RBE provide superior schooling that builds emotional resilience and understanding?

By implementing the latest studies and technologies to make a school that is designed, That is if we will even have compulsory public school system.

Expect this tho if thats the case.
Shorter days more information more physical learning no exams(As we think of them today)Look at the Finnish school module right now which is considered the best in the world currently.

At least i would asume.
There not manny other crimes, only murder,mutilation and rape i can think of wich could have different motives but i doubt they more then 10% of all crimes (not counting traffic offenses)
Other crimes then economic crimes could sky rocket in an rbe btw
Noone knows what bored humans who got everything they want will try to keep themselves entertained.


The environment that created these behavior are studied, And so far we have plenty of studies that show that inequality,Structural violence and monetary deprivation is the main breeding ground for many of these "crimes"

obviously a rich kid can be deprived of other things such as love and recognition that might cause him to act out or behave in other socially offensive ways. But most murders,Mutilation,rape can be tracked down to monetary deprived environment that still uses a very Darwinist module for survival.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
Freeze967
Profile Joined August 2011
United States230 Posts
May 31 2012 19:52 GMT
#231
Did anyone else read this as Terran vs Protoss? Then realize what he's saying Q_Q
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
May 31 2012 20:25 GMT
#232
On June 01 2012 04:47 Rassy wrote:
What is a value disorder?
Wanting to possess privater property? <- probably this.
Overvaluing private property and items, based on the false idea that they are inherently scarce.


I don't get it. If resources aren't scarce, and everyone can have everything they ever wanted, then why don't we have that today? Your argument would then come down to the system, and money, which we have made. Great, so now you've established that we've created a system which consolidates wealth systematically... but why would these people want to do that if they could just share?

And now we're back to one of the biggest reasons why this shit will never work; People always want more. Our current system is designed so that you can get more by being smart and being productive. Being productive therefore isn't pointless, as it means that you can advance yourself. Blabla problems with capitalism, sure, there are, but that's another discussion. We're discussing switching systems completely, and as far as that goes noone has shown how the RBE will actually work, at all. For example, the "school system" DeliCiousVP just mentioned is a suggestion of different systems with nothing concrete and nothing substantial with no research behind it. Research takes time and, to take a relevant example, in the area of most effective school systems there's still no conclusive research.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 21:24:32
May 31 2012 21:05 GMT
#233
If a RBE works, why hasn't it?

Jacque Fresco came up with his idea of a RBE 30+ years ago and made no progress, beyond drawings and a small, personal research facility in Florida.

In the past few years Fresco had some success (people actually have heard of it) with the Venus Project (TVP) because Zeitgeist movies brought it to light and people started donating money. TVP then broke away from Zeitgeist when Fresco decided that they were not raising enough money.

So now, their plan is to do more advertising by making movies, in order to raise more money . They are also raising more money by selling their pictures and ideas to Exemplar Zero. They are raising all this money so that they can get what they want - a test city and a theme park.

If RBE, an economic system that can supposedly function without money, is real then why did TVP have no success until they started using money to solve their problems and get what they want?

[image loading]

EDIT: TVP also stands for the ideal of total access to technology and yet does not allow anyone to access its own technology.
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
May 31 2012 21:08 GMT
#234
I don't get it. If resources aren't scarce,

Some are some are not. We have an abundance of food,water,energy,shelter obviously we don't have an abundance of diamonds. But using technology to the maximum potential what cant we do?
People always want more. Our current system is designed so that you can get more by being smart and being productive

Abusive,exploitive and ruthless.That is how you make big money
nothing concrete and nothing substantial with no research behind it.

Thats how i would describe everything you ever wrote. obviously thats not the case with me as i base everything on sources,studies and technologies currently available. Simple truth is you are just wrong.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
DeliCiousVP
Profile Joined September 2011
Sweden343 Posts
May 31 2012 21:16 GMT
#235
In the past few years Fresco had some success (people actually have heard of it) with the Venus Project (TVP) because Zeitgeist movies brought it to light and people started donating money. TVP then broke away from Zeitgeist when Fresco decided that they were not raising enough money.

So now, their plan is to do more advertising by making movies, in order to raise more money . They are also raising more money by selling their pictures and ideas to Exemplar Zero. They are raising all this money so that they can get what they want - a test city and a theme park.


When i met jacque he barely had the cloths on his back he actually had to sell of part of his designs which he have in Venus Florida yes. He spoke with great sadness of how he could barely afford to travel around, He does make enough money to sustain himself today and more.

The outing between Jacques and peter was more due to Roxanne thinking that peter was taking credit for jacque's work, She was wrong she is frail and this is not strange considering that one of the greatest mind that ever lived is 95 years old and soon to leave this world. Today they are on good terms and even had a TED talk they held together.

Peter was also opposed to trying to "raise" money for a Hollywood production movie saying that it was not a reasonable goal for them to put since the money they would have to make were in the tens of millions at least.
www.youtube.com/user/DeliCiousTZM
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
May 31 2012 21:18 GMT
#236
Don't worry guys, whenever I rape/murder/abuse/arsonize/vandalize/trespass someone or something it's always for monetary reasons. Delicious is totally correct in this regard.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 31 2012 21:19 GMT
#237
On June 01 2012 06:16 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Show nested quote +
In the past few years Fresco had some success (people actually have heard of it) with the Venus Project (TVP) because Zeitgeist movies brought it to light and people started donating money. TVP then broke away from Zeitgeist when Fresco decided that they were not raising enough money.

So now, their plan is to do more advertising by making movies, in order to raise more money . They are also raising more money by selling their pictures and ideas to Exemplar Zero. They are raising all this money so that they can get what they want - a test city and a theme park.


When i met jacque he barely had the cloths on his back he actually had to sell of part of his designs which he have in Venus Florida yes. He spoke with great sadness of how he could barely afford to travel around, He does make enough money to sustain himself today and more.

The outing between Jacques and peter was more due to Roxanne thinking that peter was taking credit for jacque's work, She was wrong she is frail and this is not strange considering that one of the greatest mind that ever lived is 95 years old and soon to leave this world. Today they are on good terms and even had a TED talk they held together.

Peter was also opposed to trying to "raise" money for a Hollywood production movie saying that it was not a reasonable goal for them to put since the money they would have to make were in the tens of millions at least.


My question still stands. If they can make the claim that running an entire economy without money is possible then they should be able to at least be able to gather enough resources, without money, in order to test it.
HellRoxYa
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden1614 Posts
May 31 2012 21:34 GMT
#238
On June 01 2012 06:18 1Eris1 wrote:
Don't worry guys, whenever I rape/murder/abuse/arsonize/vandalize/trespass someone or something it's always for monetary reasons. Delicious is totally correct in this regard.


Don't forget thoughtcrimes! But don't worry, you'll be sent to reprogramming centres so that you see things the "correct" way in no time.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 21:42:05
May 31 2012 21:39 GMT
#239
First we will replace the current programming centres called "business schools" and "universities", where people are programmed to work in a capitalistic system and to think its the only system possible.
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
May 31 2012 21:51 GMT
#240
On June 01 2012 06:39 Rassy wrote:
First we will replace the current programming centres called "business schools" and "universities", where people are programmed to work in a capitalistic system and to think its the only system possible.


We will replace them with resource based schools, where people will be programmed to work in a resource-based economy and think it's the only system possible.

...

But yeah totally. I still remember; some kid at my school tried to start a Marxist club and the capitalist thugs revoked his admittance and burned his parent's house down.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
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