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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 710

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
October 09 2012 00:55 GMT
#14181
On October 09 2012 09:50 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:49 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:48 Defacer wrote:
Changing subjects ...

Does the VP debate actually matter this year? Will a good performance by either candidate impact the polls?

It certainly had a lot of eyeballs the last election because of Palin.

I think Ryan's speaking ability will whitewash Biden, regardless of what either of them have to say.


"Whitewash". What do you mean by that? I think you're using the word in a different way than I normally do ...

I mean, Ryan is going to be the 'winner' regardless of what he says because he presents far more eloquently and confidently than Biden.
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
October 09 2012 00:55 GMT
#14182
On October 09 2012 09:51 sam!zdat wrote:
This whole 47% Romney scandal thing is absurd. It is a perfect example of ideological blinders. Romney is caught saying something secretly that is supposed to be scandalous, but in fact EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY that both candidates write off their opponents' bases and work on a) mobilizing their bases by vilifying that of their opponent and b) pandering to those swing state voters too stupid to yet have an opinion or too marginal to belong to either base.

There is nothing scandalous about what Romney said. In fact, the very way that our system is constructed DEMANDS that he hold this opinion - it is a strategic necessity. If he did not, he would lose to a candidate who did. It is only when something that everybody already knows is the case, but represses ideologically, is brought to light that the "scandal" appears.

It is not Romney's comments that are scandalous - it is the system itself! Everybody already knows that he thinks this! The "scandal" is only a symptom!


There's actually a statement in the video that he makes that is arguably worse ... He admits in the video that he believes the economy will improve, even without any changes to economic policy.

It's basically a tacit admission that he believes his own candidacy is irrelevant to economy. I'm surprised that that hasn't exploded over the internet.

sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 09 2012 00:56 GMT
#14183
On October 09 2012 09:55 bkrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:50 Defacer wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:49 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:48 Defacer wrote:
Changing subjects ...

Does the VP debate actually matter this year? Will a good performance by either candidate impact the polls?

It certainly had a lot of eyeballs the last election because of Palin.

I think Ryan's speaking ability will whitewash Biden, regardless of what either of them have to say.


"Whitewash". What do you mean by that? I think you're using the word in a different way than I normally do ...

I mean, Ryan is going to be the 'winner' regardless of what he says because he presents far more eloquently and confidently than Biden.


"whitewash" means to take something unpleasant and make it look nice by painting it white
shikata ga nai
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
October 09 2012 00:57 GMT
#14184
On October 09 2012 09:55 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:51 sam!zdat wrote:
This whole 47% Romney scandal thing is absurd. It is a perfect example of ideological blinders. Romney is caught saying something secretly that is supposed to be scandalous, but in fact EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY that both candidates write off their opponents' bases and work on a) mobilizing their bases by vilifying that of their opponent and b) pandering to those swing state voters too stupid to yet have an opinion or too marginal to belong to either base.

There is nothing scandalous about what Romney said. In fact, the very way that our system is constructed DEMANDS that he hold this opinion - it is a strategic necessity. If he did not, he would lose to a candidate who did. It is only when something that everybody already knows is the case, but represses ideologically, is brought to light that the "scandal" appears.

It is not Romney's comments that are scandalous - it is the system itself! Everybody already knows that he thinks this! The "scandal" is only a symptom!


There's actually a statement in the video that he makes that is arguably worse ... He admits in the video that he believes the economy will improve, even without any changes to economic policy.

It's basically a tacit admission that he believes his own candidacy is irrelevant to economy. I'm surprised that that hasn't exploded over the internet.



Not a strong enough meme. It has way too much logical structure. "47%" has a % in it, which is very popular these days, and it has a very simple structure: hate(object). Quite easy to process.
shikata ga nai
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
October 09 2012 00:57 GMT
#14185
On October 09 2012 09:55 bkrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:50 Defacer wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:49 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:48 Defacer wrote:
Changing subjects ...

Does the VP debate actually matter this year? Will a good performance by either candidate impact the polls?

It certainly had a lot of eyeballs the last election because of Palin.

I think Ryan's speaking ability will whitewash Biden, regardless of what either of them have to say.


"Whitewash". What do you mean by that? I think you're using the word in a different way than I normally do ...

I mean, Ryan is going to be the 'winner' regardless of what he says because he presents far more eloquently and confidently than Biden.


I'm actually not so sure. In his RNC speech and 60 minutes interview, I found him quite mechanical. It seemed like he was having trouble reconciling his own political beliefs with the Romney campaign's move to center.

At the same time, Joe Biden is blabbermouth with no inner monologue. So who knows?
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
October 09 2012 00:58 GMT
#14186
On October 09 2012 09:48 dvorakftw wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:24 Souma wrote:
Irrelevant. Romney said he wouldn't cut teachers when he actually said we did need to cut back on teachers. It's the undeniable truth.

Once again you can try to spin stuff with your strawman arguments and red herrings but I'm not so easily distracted.


Show nested quote +
rogzardo October 09 2012 09:21. Posts 577 PM Profile Blog Quote #
You posted that graph as a response to the Romney video which clearly shows him being on both sides of the issues at different times. The graph did nothing to dispute his obvious flip flopping.


Romney is against throwing money at the problem. He is not for firing people randomly but for improving the structure so you end up with more teachers. But again, people like you two are why politics is in such bad shape. You don't care about any actual policy. You simply want to take two sentences from two speeches and attack. It's as enlightening as me getting a soundbyte of Artosis calling MVP "MKP" and saying he clearly knows nothing about the game and can't tell the two players apart.


Irrelevant. He said he wasn't going to fire teachers, when it actuality he said he was going to fire teachers.

We can keep going.
Writer
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 01:00:02
October 09 2012 00:59 GMT
#14187
On October 09 2012 09:56 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:55 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:50 Defacer wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:49 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:48 Defacer wrote:
Changing subjects ...

Does the VP debate actually matter this year? Will a good performance by either candidate impact the polls?

It certainly had a lot of eyeballs the last election because of Palin.

I think Ryan's speaking ability will whitewash Biden, regardless of what either of them have to say.


"Whitewash". What do you mean by that? I think you're using the word in a different way than I normally do ...

I mean, Ryan is going to be the 'winner' regardless of what he says because he presents far more eloquently and confidently than Biden.


"whitewash" means to take something unpleasant and make it look nice by painting it white

Yeah maybe wrong word :p but i can see it being applied to whatever comes out of Ryan's mouth
+ Show Spoiler +
(attempt at humour)
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
rogzardo
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
610 Posts
October 09 2012 00:59 GMT
#14188
Biden needs to keep 90% of what he says to pointing out the vagueness of the Romney/Ryan plan. If he gets off track he be screwed.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
October 09 2012 00:59 GMT
#14189
On October 09 2012 09:56 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:55 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:50 Defacer wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:49 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:48 Defacer wrote:
Changing subjects ...

Does the VP debate actually matter this year? Will a good performance by either candidate impact the polls?

It certainly had a lot of eyeballs the last election because of Palin.

I think Ryan's speaking ability will whitewash Biden, regardless of what either of them have to say.


"Whitewash". What do you mean by that? I think you're using the word in a different way than I normally do ...

I mean, Ryan is going to be the 'winner' regardless of what he says because he presents far more eloquently and confidently than Biden.


"whitewash" means to take something unpleasant and make it look nice by painting it white


It is also a derogatory way of describing ethnic cleansing or gentrification of other people's culture. Ex. Disney whitewashed the story of Pocahontas.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 01:02:01
October 09 2012 01:00 GMT
#14190
On October 09 2012 09:59 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:56 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:55 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:50 Defacer wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:49 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:48 Defacer wrote:
Changing subjects ...

Does the VP debate actually matter this year? Will a good performance by either candidate impact the polls?

It certainly had a lot of eyeballs the last election because of Palin.

I think Ryan's speaking ability will whitewash Biden, regardless of what either of them have to say.


"Whitewash". What do you mean by that? I think you're using the word in a different way than I normally do ...

I mean, Ryan is going to be the 'winner' regardless of what he says because he presents far more eloquently and confidently than Biden.


"whitewash" means to take something unpleasant and make it look nice by painting it white


It is also a derogatory way of describing ethnic cleansing or gentrification of other people's culture. Ex. Disney whitewashed the story of Pocahontas.


I claim that this sense falls under the definition I provided

edit: which is not to say that "indian people are unpleasant" (lest anybody for whatever reason take me to mean that), but that here the ethnic other is the thing which is whitewashed by making Miss P a big eyed disney princess.
shikata ga nai
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
October 09 2012 01:01 GMT
#14191
On October 09 2012 09:51 sam!zdat wrote:
This whole 47% Romney scandal thing is absurd. It is a perfect example of ideological blinders. Romney is caught saying something secretly that is supposed to be scandalous, but in fact EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY that both candidates write off their opponents' bases and work on a) mobilizing their bases by vilifying that of their opponent and b) pandering to those swing state voters too stupid to yet have an opinion or too marginal to belong to either base.

There is nothing scandalous about what Romney said. In fact, the very way that our system is constructed DEMANDS that he hold this opinion - it is a strategic necessity. If he did not, he would lose to a candidate who did. It is only when something that everybody already knows is the case, but represses ideologically, is brought to light and forces a confrontation with the repressed Real that the "scandal" appears.

It is not Romney's comments that are scandalous - it is the system itself! Everybody already knows that he thinks this! The "scandal" is only a symptom!


Jeezes dude. He wasn't just writing off Democrats, he was writing off Republicans as well. Poor people don't only vote Democrat. A huge chunk of them vote Republican. That's one reason why it was so bad.
Writer
dvorakftw
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
681 Posts
October 09 2012 01:02 GMT
#14192
On October 09 2012 09:41 bkrow wrote:
He called them victims, who feel entitled and don't take personal responsibility for their lives.

It's hyperbole but generally accurate.

How are you possibly trying to rationalise that as an intelligent thing to say during an election? Or at all, at any time?

Again, an example of why politics is so bad. You turn a genuine political philosophy based on history that shows excessive government spending and welfare can do more harm than good and it is turned into "Romney hates poor people". You change half a dozen words in the full quote and you have absolutely nothing to use against him. But because he was speaking extemporaneously he didn't say it perfectly word for word and now it's the centerpiece of Obama's campaign.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 01:04:12
October 09 2012 01:03 GMT
#14193
On October 09 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:51 sam!zdat wrote:
This whole 47% Romney scandal thing is absurd. It is a perfect example of ideological blinders. Romney is caught saying something secretly that is supposed to be scandalous, but in fact EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY that both candidates write off their opponents' bases and work on a) mobilizing their bases by vilifying that of their opponent and b) pandering to those swing state voters too stupid to yet have an opinion or too marginal to belong to either base.

There is nothing scandalous about what Romney said. In fact, the very way that our system is constructed DEMANDS that he hold this opinion - it is a strategic necessity. If he did not, he would lose to a candidate who did. It is only when something that everybody already knows is the case, but represses ideologically, is brought to light and forces a confrontation with the repressed Real that the "scandal" appears.

It is not Romney's comments that are scandalous - it is the system itself! Everybody already knows that he thinks this! The "scandal" is only a symptom!


Jeezes dude. He wasn't just writing off Democrats, he was writing off Republicans as well. Poor people don't only vote Democrat. A huge chunk of them vote Republican. That's one reason why it was so bad.


Yeah, that's part of the ideology.

edit: which is to say, I claim that everybody already knows that republican ideology is about making people vote against their own interests. The scandal of "many of these people vote republican" is already part of the ideology
shikata ga nai
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
October 09 2012 01:06 GMT
#14194
On October 09 2012 10:02 dvorakftw wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:41 bkrow wrote:
He called them victims, who feel entitled and don't take personal responsibility for their lives.

It's hyperbole but generally accurate.

Show nested quote +
How are you possibly trying to rationalise that as an intelligent thing to say during an election? Or at all, at any time?

Again, an example of why politics is so bad. You turn a genuine political philosophy based on history that shows excessive government spending and welfare can do more harm than good and it is turned into "Romney hates poor people". You change half a dozen words in the full quote and you have absolutely nothing to use against him. But because he was speaking extemporaneously he didn't say it perfectly word for word and now it's the centerpiece of Obama's campaign.

My interpretation is obviously different to yours.

To me, it showed a belief that the "47%" don't actually matter to him. Be they Democrat, Republican, or anything else. It projected that Romney is not capable of thinking about the middle - lower class; if you don't own a business or you aren't rich, you don't matter.

Nobody would argue against excessive welfare causing harm, not even Obama, so I'm not sure about your point.
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
urashimakt
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1591 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 01:08:46
October 09 2012 01:06 GMT
#14195
On October 09 2012 09:57 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:55 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:50 Defacer wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:49 bkrow wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:48 Defacer wrote:
Changing subjects ...

Does the VP debate actually matter this year? Will a good performance by either candidate impact the polls?

It certainly had a lot of eyeballs the last election because of Palin.

I think Ryan's speaking ability will whitewash Biden, regardless of what either of them have to say.


"Whitewash". What do you mean by that? I think you're using the word in a different way than I normally do ...

I mean, Ryan is going to be the 'winner' regardless of what he says because he presents far more eloquently and confidently than Biden.


I'm actually not so sure. In his RNC speech and 60 minutes interview, I found him quite mechanical. It seemed like he was having trouble reconciling his own political beliefs with the Romney campaign's move to center.

At the same time, Joe Biden is blabbermouth with no inner monologue. So who knows?

Well, Ryan is the tea party movement poster child bound by the barely right-leaning, libertarianesque Romney ideology and Biden is an elderly man with apparently no vocal filter.

No matter what happens, it'll be a TiVo moment.
Who dat ninja?
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 01:07:08
October 09 2012 01:07 GMT
#14196
On October 09 2012 10:06 bkrow wrote:
Nobody would argue against excessive welfare causing harm, not even Obama, so I'm not sure about your point.


Just to hammer home the extremist limit case of this proposition, not even I would argue against excessive welfare causing harm.
shikata ga nai
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
October 09 2012 01:07 GMT
#14197
On October 09 2012 10:06 bkrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 10:02 dvorakftw wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:41 bkrow wrote:
He called them victims, who feel entitled and don't take personal responsibility for their lives.

It's hyperbole but generally accurate.

How are you possibly trying to rationalise that as an intelligent thing to say during an election? Or at all, at any time?

Again, an example of why politics is so bad. You turn a genuine political philosophy based on history that shows excessive government spending and welfare can do more harm than good and it is turned into "Romney hates poor people". You change half a dozen words in the full quote and you have absolutely nothing to use against him. But because he was speaking extemporaneously he didn't say it perfectly word for word and now it's the centerpiece of Obama's campaign.

My interpretation is obviously different to yours.

To me, it showed a belief that the "47%" don't actually matter to him. Be they Democrat, Republican, or anything else. It projected that Romney is not capable of thinking about the middle - lower class; if you don't own a business or you aren't rich, you don't matter.

Nobody would argue against excessive welfare causing harm, not even Obama, so I'm not sure about your point.


Especially since most of that bottom 47% come from the more southern heavy republican states (south states happen to be the poorest overall) which is ironic to say the least.
FoTG fighting!
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
October 09 2012 01:08 GMT
#14198
On October 09 2012 10:03 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:51 sam!zdat wrote:
This whole 47% Romney scandal thing is absurd. It is a perfect example of ideological blinders. Romney is caught saying something secretly that is supposed to be scandalous, but in fact EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY that both candidates write off their opponents' bases and work on a) mobilizing their bases by vilifying that of their opponent and b) pandering to those swing state voters too stupid to yet have an opinion or too marginal to belong to either base.

There is nothing scandalous about what Romney said. In fact, the very way that our system is constructed DEMANDS that he hold this opinion - it is a strategic necessity. If he did not, he would lose to a candidate who did. It is only when something that everybody already knows is the case, but represses ideologically, is brought to light and forces a confrontation with the repressed Real that the "scandal" appears.

It is not Romney's comments that are scandalous - it is the system itself! Everybody already knows that he thinks this! The "scandal" is only a symptom!


Jeezes dude. He wasn't just writing off Democrats, he was writing off Republicans as well. Poor people don't only vote Democrat. A huge chunk of them vote Republican. That's one reason why it was so bad.


Yeah, that's part of the ideology.

edit: which is to say, I claim that everybody already knows that republican ideology is about making people vote against their own interests. The scandal of "many of these people vote republican" is already part of the ideology


Republicanism is not about making people vote against their self-interests. It just happens to be that way right now.
Writer
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 01:09:55
October 09 2012 01:09 GMT
#14199
On October 09 2012 10:08 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 10:03 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 09 2012 10:01 Souma wrote:
On October 09 2012 09:51 sam!zdat wrote:
This whole 47% Romney scandal thing is absurd. It is a perfect example of ideological blinders. Romney is caught saying something secretly that is supposed to be scandalous, but in fact EVERYBODY KNOWS ALREADY that both candidates write off their opponents' bases and work on a) mobilizing their bases by vilifying that of their opponent and b) pandering to those swing state voters too stupid to yet have an opinion or too marginal to belong to either base.

There is nothing scandalous about what Romney said. In fact, the very way that our system is constructed DEMANDS that he hold this opinion - it is a strategic necessity. If he did not, he would lose to a candidate who did. It is only when something that everybody already knows is the case, but represses ideologically, is brought to light and forces a confrontation with the repressed Real that the "scandal" appears.

It is not Romney's comments that are scandalous - it is the system itself! Everybody already knows that he thinks this! The "scandal" is only a symptom!


Jeezes dude. He wasn't just writing off Democrats, he was writing off Republicans as well. Poor people don't only vote Democrat. A huge chunk of them vote Republican. That's one reason why it was so bad.


Yeah, that's part of the ideology.

edit: which is to say, I claim that everybody already knows that republican ideology is about making people vote against their own interests. The scandal of "many of these people vote republican" is already part of the ideology


Republicanism is not about making people vote against their self-interests. It just happens to be that way right now.


Do you mean republicanism in some classical sense?

It is not what it is "about", so I should modify my language. It is already part of what it does, which is far more interesting than what it is about (which always the case with any ideology - you don't look at what it is about, you look at what it does)
shikata ga nai
Bigtony
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1606 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 01:19:25
October 09 2012 01:18 GMT
#14200
On October 09 2012 09:48 dvorakftw wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2012 09:24 Souma wrote:
Irrelevant. Romney said he wouldn't cut teachers when he actually said we did need to cut back on teachers. It's the undeniable truth.

Once again you can try to spin stuff with your strawman arguments and red herrings but I'm not so easily distracted.


Show nested quote +
rogzardo October 09 2012 09:21. Posts 577 PM Profile Blog Quote #
You posted that graph as a response to the Romney video which clearly shows him being on both sides of the issues at different times. The graph did nothing to dispute his obvious flip flopping.


Romney is against throwing money at the problem. He is not for firing people randomly but for improving the structure so you end up with more teachers. But again, people like you two are why politics is in such bad shape. You don't care about any actual policy. You simply want to take two sentences from two speeches and attack. It's as enlightening as me getting a soundbyte of Artosis calling MVP "MKP" and saying he clearly knows nothing about the game and can't tell the two players apart.


I just want to reply to the article you linked and point out how absofuckinglutely insane it is for the author to make the claim that 'it's getting better already' as if in 1 year problems will manifest:

Then there are work rules. "In the collective bargaining agreement, high school teachers only had to teach five periods a day, out of seven," says Arnoldussen. "Now, they're going to teach six." In addition, the collective bargaining agreement specified that teachers had to be in the school 37 1/2 hours a week. Now, it will be 40 hours.


5/7 -> 6/7 is a 20% increase in workload.

Teachers' salaries will stay "relatively the same," Arnoldussen says, except for higher pension and health care payments.


So actually what happened was that their work load increased approximately 20% and they also are paying ~10% of their salary for their benefits. They are doing more work for less pay.

(The top salary is around $80,000 per year, with about $35,000 in additional benefits, for 184 days of work per year -- summers off.) Finally, the money saved will be used to hire a few more teachers and institute merit pay.


The TOP salary is 80k/year; in most school districts it takes 15 YEARS to hit the top of the salary scale. Even if you give full value to their benefits, 100k/year is a fair salary for someone with 15 years experience in most fields. Merit pay, for which there exists no objective metric on which to evaluate teachers and is ultimately a gigantic scam to cut salaries.

tl;dr - I'm all for unions and school districts bargaining on fair footing, but if the school had better funding or was managed better, they'd be better off. I'm glad that they were able to negotiate a fair deal for health insurance, but whose fault was it that they made that deal in the first place? Unions are not to blame when school boards are corrupt and stupid, the school boards and the parents in the community they represent are.
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