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On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it.
You missed the single biggest problem: broken families.
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On September 29 2012 06:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. You missed the single biggest problem: broken families.
Yeah, that's absolutely a factor. There is a feedback cycle between this and education. It is mutually reinforcing either way.
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If a school fails to meet the improvement requirements (note: not a fixed percentage of kids passing, is has to improve) then the teachers can be forced to use 'scripts' to teach lessons, removing even the little control they previously had over their lessons. Schools have little chance to effect any kind of influence on the culture of standardised testing and being held accountable to it in every way. Teachers, even entire faculties can be fired if standards are not being met by the school as a whole. That's a hell of an incentive to make sure as many kids pass those tests as possible above anything else.
Accountability is needed but it's hard to say how. How would qualitative accountability work? How do you judge that a school is giving a good education to the kids if not by standardised testing? Unfortunately the government thought about that problem and decided that there simply isn't a way to test it without standardised tests, so that's what would be used. Woot.
Also I don't agree that broken families particularly affect schools. I come from a broken home, and I've always done well at school. Yes it can affect school performance but a single parent can be a good role model for a child. Personally I would blame poor parenting (parents need to control their kids and make sure they respect others, value education and working towards common goals) coupled with a complete undermining of teacher power (way too many stories of parents getting pissed when their little angels get detention) means kids have no strong role models to inspire them and keep them in schools studying hard. Of course them tests don't help.
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On September 29 2012 07:02 Sanctimonius wrote:
Accountability is needed but it's hard to say how. How would qualitative accountability work? How do you judge that a school is giving a good education to the kids if not by standardised testing? Unfortunately the government thought about that problem and decided that there simply isn't a way to test it without standardised tests, so that's what would be used. Woot.
You can if it's administered locally. If it's a bureaucrat in some other place, looking at numbers and never setting foot in the place, talking to kids, talking to parents, talking to teachers, not a teacher himself, it's never going to happen.
I'm not sure the federal government is the appropriate entity for administering education. But you do have to make sure that your education reaches poor populations (so purely local administration tied to property tax in the current fashion would be highly regressive).
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On September 29 2012 06:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. You missed the single biggest problem: broken families.
Could you explain this further? I don't know any information on this.
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Northern Ireland23827 Posts
On September 29 2012 06:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. You missed the single biggest problem: broken families.
Broken families exist all over the Western world though, they're not unique to the United States. What DoubleReed said there was pretty interesting, I didn't realise teaching was viewed in such a light by many Americans.
Would be interested to hear from Finns on how they rebuilt their education system. I recall reading an article that stated this wasn't some accident, but a real in-depth, top-down look at their system, and a real valuing of teaching as a profession by society as a whole.
Not the article I read, but something along similar lines
Another issue with the American political system is that it is difficult to enact real reforms that require years of fine-tuning, given how adversarial political rhetoric (and indeed action) is now. To take an example, look at something like 'Obamacare', a large amount of media attention has been given to GOP candidates and their desire to repeal the entire thing. Obviously this isn't just a 'Republicans are bad' point, but the current state of US politics makes these long-term projects difficult to oversee.
In countries with a more consensus-based approach to politics, especially in Europe, yes they are ineffective in certain aspects, but there's a less poisonous atmosphere that allows long-term restructuring of things like education to take place.
In somewhere like the States, or the UK, the party that's in power will have a flagship policy, the party out of power will shit on it regularly and be intransigent at all terms. Look at the persistent use of the Filibuster in Obama's first term for a pretty clear example of what i'm talking about.
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On September 29 2012 07:06 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:02 Sanctimonius wrote:
Accountability is needed but it's hard to say how. How would qualitative accountability work? How do you judge that a school is giving a good education to the kids if not by standardised testing? Unfortunately the government thought about that problem and decided that there simply isn't a way to test it without standardised tests, so that's what would be used. Woot. You can if it's administered locally. If it's a bureaucrat in some other place, looking at numbers and never setting foot in the place, talking to kids, talking to parents, talking to teachers, not a teacher himself, it's never going to happen. I'm not sure the federal government is the appropriate entity for administering education. But you do have to make sure that your education reaches poor populations (so purely local administration tied to property tax in the current fashion would be highly regressive).
Yes, but that enters into the whole 'teacher's aren't trusted' thing. If it's a teacher judging this, then what is to stop them lying about the abilities of their kids? They have a vested interest in their kids looking good, as do the school and the local authorities.
I don't think that is what would happen, but I don't think people trust the system to be fair and honest. And making sure everyone's money reaches the poor areas sounds suspiciously like them socialists!
NB - totally agree with you that education needs to be controlled at the local area, who better to decide what is best for their students? People enter education to make sure kids are taught right and in an interesting fun way. But if money is coming from the federal level then the federal level will demand some kind of accountability and some way to measure 'progress'.
@Wombat - interesting point. NCLB was a bi-partisan affair but these are rare, and frankly it could be the best legislation in the world but there will be elements in the opposition party that oppose, especially if it's Obama who had put it forward.
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On September 29 2012 06:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. You missed the single biggest problem: broken families.
Actually speaking as a teacher that is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is attitude and money. Broken families can be dealt with easily IF the school has the ressources needed to deal with it. Meaning small classes at best, and help if needed for the kids with truly outstanding problems (be that a therapist, a doctor etc. I probably could spend an hour listing things EVERY school never has enough of).
By attitude I mean exactly what the poster you quoted said. I've spent days trying to explain to parents that maybe their child should spend more than an hour practicing or studying before a test, but no it MUST be my fault as a teacher. That is the biggest problem our schools currently face. That somehow we have forgotten that children can be at fault.
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On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it.
I have to disagree with you on several points, but I do agree with you on some.
I think the whole "If you can't do, teach" applies in many cases in college. The reason is because a lot of professors are so caught up in the nice little bubble that academia is, that they have no idea how to get things done in the real world (AKA a job outside of a university). In high school how does that even apply?
I do however agree completely with you on how our culture disrespects teachers in a more general sense. Teachers work very hard and have virtually no support from students, parents, or the administration. This is what needs to be changed. Parents need to quit babying their children (99% of the time the child is in the wrong), and the administration in schools needs to get tough and let teachers do their job.
Religion is not a problem towards education..... I am going to go out on a limb and assume that you are speaking specifically in regards to science (and more specifically biological evolution). There are other important subjects besides science and biology. Literature... Foreign Languages... History... all those benefit culturally from religion. Unless you want to be one of those guys who says "science is the best, everything else sucks..." which is fine, but realize that you are basing your whole opinion on an objective non-factual statement.
On top of that being religious does not equate to being a "bad scientist."
Could you explain to me how a religious Mechanical Engineer cannot be as effective as one who does not ascribe to religion? How about a religious chemist? Or even a religious physicist observing particles at the LHC. There are many many jobs at which religion is irrelevant, and does not influence how good someone is at their job.
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On September 29 2012 07:14 Sanctimonius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:06 sam!zdat wrote:On September 29 2012 07:02 Sanctimonius wrote:
Accountability is needed but it's hard to say how. How would qualitative accountability work? How do you judge that a school is giving a good education to the kids if not by standardised testing? Unfortunately the government thought about that problem and decided that there simply isn't a way to test it without standardised tests, so that's what would be used. Woot. You can if it's administered locally. If it's a bureaucrat in some other place, looking at numbers and never setting foot in the place, talking to kids, talking to parents, talking to teachers, not a teacher himself, it's never going to happen. I'm not sure the federal government is the appropriate entity for administering education. But you do have to make sure that your education reaches poor populations (so purely local administration tied to property tax in the current fashion would be highly regressive). Yes, but that enters into the whole 'teacher's aren't trusted' thing. If it's a teacher judging this, then what is to stop them lying about the abilities of their kids? They have a vested interest in their kids looking good, as do the school and the local authorities.
Sure. Can't fix anything until teaching is recognized as the honorable, noble, and socially necessary profession which it is. Changing culture is a necessary step towards any sort of progress.
And making sure everyone's money reaches the poor areas sounds suspiciously like them socialists!
You must not be familiar with my posting history 
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I think the point is more that based on religious beliefs of certain Christian sects schools are being forced to change their curricula in ways that are, frankly, stupid - having to teach kids 'alternatives' to evolution or being forced to consider creationism as if it has scientific validity.
Personally I have no problem if a school wants to teach these things (though it better not be using any tax dollars to do so), what I find objectionable is the insistance that creationism or Intelligent design can be ranked in science next to factual, measurable history - if you want to teach these things then teach them in RE, not science class. Putting it into science class is saying that these things are equally possible and backed up with scientific research.
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On September 29 2012 07:15 dannystarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. I have to disagree with you on several points, but I do agree with you on some. I think the whole "If you can't do, teach" applies in many cases in college. The reason is because a lot of professors are so caught up in the nice little bubble that academia is, that they have no idea how to get things done in the real world (AKA a job outside of a university). In high school how does that even apply?
The university is a critical part of the 'real world'... In fact, the things that are done in the university are far more 'real' than the things being done outside of it. This denigration of the academy is absurd.
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On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it.
Yeah, I don't know where you live but virtually everyone I've ever come across has tons of respect for teachers.
Quick google search: "America's Most Admired Professions" teachers ranked #5.
Link
I'm not sure how private schools are an issue. As far as I know they don't take money from public schools.
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On September 29 2012 07:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. I'm not sure how private schools are an issue. As far as I know they don't take money from public schools.
They siphon off unconscionable amounts of bourgeois give-a-shit from public schools. (I say this as the product of the american private school system, an education for which my parents paid upwards of 20k per year)
edit:
On September 29 2012 07:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Yeah, I don't know where you live but virtually everyone I've ever come across has tons of respect for teachers.
Say you're a bright young thing deciding what to do with your life. Would you rather be a teacher, or a banker? (that article you pointed to is just ideology, not things people actually want to do with their lives. In fact, they are admired in this way precisely because they are seen as being SELFLESS - i.e. something nobody wants to do themselves. It's the sublimation of the contradiction inherent in ideology that sees selfishness as being a good thing)
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On September 29 2012 07:31 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. I'm not sure how private schools are an issue. As far as I know they don't take money from public schools. They siphon off unconscionable amounts of bourgeois give-a-shit from public schools. (I say this as the product of the american private school system, an education for which my parents paid upwards of 20k per year)
They siphon off 'give a shit?' That must be a technical term I am unfamiliar with.
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Yeah, I don't know where you live but virtually everyone I've ever come across has tons of respect for teachers. Say you're a bright young thing deciding what to do with your life. Would you rather be a teacher, or a banker?
If you want to make money then banker, if you want to be loved then teacher.
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Anyone that thinks teaching is easy has never taught a class.
It's fucking exhausting. And being a great teacher is an insane amount of work with little reward.
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On September 29 2012 07:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:31 sam!zdat wrote:On September 29 2012 07:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. I'm not sure how private schools are an issue. As far as I know they don't take money from public schools. They siphon off unconscionable amounts of bourgeois give-a-shit from public schools. (I say this as the product of the american private school system, an education for which my parents paid upwards of 20k per year) They siphon off 'give a shit?' That must be a technical term I am unfamiliar with.
Do you seriously not catch my point? I was rather pleased with that turn of phrase.
On September 29 2012 07:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
If you want to make money then banker, if you want to be loved then teacher.
Erm.. why don't we show them our love by giving them the only standard of value our society recognizes, viz. money?
and of course bankers, whom we hate, get that value. very silly, american civilization, very silly
edit: not to mention attracting more talented teachers. What if you're like every human being ever, and you want both love and money? Can't complain about bad teachers if you don't fucking pay them well.
edit edit: I don't know why you are so blind on this point. When corporations want to have better employees than the other corporations, what do they do??
Your attitude is a sure recipe for terrible schools
"if you want to be loved" my overeducated ass
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 29 2012 07:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. Yeah, I don't know where you live but virtually everyone I've ever come across has tons of respect for teachers. Quick google search: "America's Most Admired Professions" teachers ranked #5. LinkI'm not sure how private schools are an issue. As far as I know they don't take money from public schools.
Yeah, what? Teachers are possibly the most bullied profession. They take a lot of flack from administrators, government policies, parents, and students. Doesn't help that they are grossly underpaid, and when they lash out and go on strike the public perceives them as holding the kids' education as hostage.
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On September 29 2012 07:49 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:45 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 29 2012 07:31 sam!zdat wrote:On September 29 2012 07:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On September 29 2012 06:54 DoubleReed wrote:
Eh, for schools I think a major problem is our culture that absolutely disrespects teachers all the time. That stupid crap about "if you can't do, teach" and such is just idiotic and shameful. Teachers work damn hard and good teachers work really damn hard. And for some reason America has an incredibly dismissive attitude toward teachers. Of course we're going to have a terrible education system. IMO this is the biggest problem, and it's one of the reasons why I really get pissed at Chris Christie.
Religion is another problem. We have a huge anti-intellectual branch in the US, and that doesn't help our education. Especially as kids are now completely confused about evolution.
Another issue is that there is a ton of money flowing into private schools. It just makes a lot of wealthier communities not care about public education (and it's heavily tied to Religion in schools). Personally, I think it we should try banning private schools. That may raise some eyebrows, but it definitely worked for Norway. Think about it. I'm not sure how private schools are an issue. As far as I know they don't take money from public schools. They siphon off unconscionable amounts of bourgeois give-a-shit from public schools. (I say this as the product of the american private school system, an education for which my parents paid upwards of 20k per year) They siphon off 'give a shit?' That must be a technical term I am unfamiliar with. Do you seriously not catch my point? I was rather pleased with that turn of phrase.
I'm teasing because I think you are off base. I don't see private schools as taking away from public ones.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
some of the public schools are quasi-private anyway. school districts attract wealthy families who in turn pay more taxes to support the schools. poor neighborhoods have little resources and face worse problems.
the u.s. has many institutions that allow for complete channeling of self interest to the self. these close gate bubbles deprive the rest of the environment of resources that, under a more clunky system, so to speak, flows out more evenly.
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EPT
