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President Obama Re-Elected - Page 582

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Hey guys! We'll be closing this thread shortly, but we will make an American politics megathread where we can continue the discussions in here.

The new thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383301
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 20:12:11
September 24 2012 20:11 GMT
#11621
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)
Porouscloud - NA LoL
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 24 2012 20:18 GMT
#11622
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
September 24 2012 20:21 GMT
#11623
On September 25 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?


And they don't all happen to be Republicans, fyi.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 20:24:09
September 24 2012 20:22 GMT
#11624
On September 25 2012 04:36 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 04:06 BallinWitStalin wrote:
On September 25 2012 02:29 kmillz wrote:
"Real unemployment rate" @16% when workers who dropped out of the work force are accounted for.


Mitt Romney-aligned group says 'real' unemployment rate is 19 percent
Mostly False
Share this story:

In this ad, a group aligned with Mitt Romney paints a dark portrait of the employment picture under President Barack Obama

A campaign ad by the pro-Mitt Romney group Restore Our Future blames President Barack Obama not only for the current high rate of unemployment, but also for leading many Americans to simply stop looking for jobs.

"Millions of Americans are disappearing from the work force because they can't find jobs," the ad says. "The overall unemployment rate doesn't even count them any more. Eight million Americans have dropped out of the workforce since Obama became president. Counting people who dropped out or can't find full-time jobs, the real unemployment rate is 19 percent."

Everybody knows the jobs bounceback from the most recent recession has been frustratingly modest. But have eight million Americans really "dropped out of the work force since Obama became president"? And has that left the "real" unemployment rate at 19 percent?

Restore Our Future, through a spokeswoman, declined to comment on what went into the group’s calculation. But the ad itself did offer its source: a Wall Street Journal column from Sept. 7, 2012, by businessman and editor Mortimer Zuckerman. Zuckerman wrote:

"How many people are out of work but not counted as unemployed because they hadn't sought work in the past four weeks? Eight million. ... The key indicator of our employment health, in all the statistics, is what the government calls U-6. This is the number who have applied for work in the past six months and includes people who are involuntary part-time workers — government-speak for those individuals whose jobs have been cut back to two or three days a week. They are working part-time only because they've been unable to find full-time work. This involuntary army of what's called ‘underutilized labor’ has been hovering for months at about 15 percent of the workforce. Include the eight million who have simply given up looking, and the real unemployment rate is closer to 19 percent."

Zuckerman didn’t answer our inquiries. But we’ll look at the two pieces of the claim -- the 8 million and the 19 percent -- in order.

Eight million labor-force dropouts

The eight million figure has been bouncing around the conservative blogosphere in recent weeks, such as a widely shared column from Investor’s Business Daily that said that during the Obama recovery, "the ranks of those who aren't in the labor force at all have swelled by nearly 8 million."

We were able to track down a Bureau of Labor Statistics category that jibes with the 8 million claim. Called "not in labor force," this statistic counts people age 16 years and older who are neither employed nor unemployed. (Being unemployed, according to BLS, means being available for work and having looked for work sometime during the previous four weeks.)

Between Obama’s inauguration and today, a 44-month period, the number of Americans "not in the labor force" rose by 8.4 million. Using a slightly different time frame -- starting the count at the end of the recession in June 2009 -- produces a rise of almost exactly 8 million. So the figure has a grain of truth.

But what does this number really mean? For starters, it’s actually not a measurement of people who "can’t find jobs" -- at least not entirely. In addition to discouraged job-seekers, it includes parents who decided to become a full-time mom or dad. It includes people who have decided to go back to school. And it includes people who have chosen to retire.

There’s no question that some of these decisions may have been influenced by a perception of weak job prospects ahead. But people make these career-changing decisions all the time; if you’re going to lay the blame for a shrinking workforce on today’s economy, it’s important to tell how much more common labor-market departures are now compared to what would have been happening in a more "normal" job market. The retirement numbers are particularly important, given the aging of the baby-boomer workforce.

Fortunately, there’s a way to get a rough sense of this, by looking at the trendline over a longer period of time.

For the 44 months prior to January 2009, people left the labor force at a stable, predictable rate -- in fact, essentially the same rate back to 2002. During that time, 3.8 million people left the labor force. So if you consider this the "normal" amount of departures from the labor force over 44 months, Obama’s presidency has seen departures increase by an "extra" 4.6 million.

This 4.6 million number checks out if you look at the trendline for the civilian labor force -- that is, the number of people who are either employed or officially unemployed. After a steady rise through January 2009, this number has flatlined. If you were to extend the same pace of growth after January 2009 as there was before, the labor force would have had almost exactly 4.6 million extra members today.

Bottom line: An extra 4.6 million people leaving the labor force (or never joining it in the first place) is still a big number. But it’s not 8 million.

A 19 percent "real" unemployment rate

The statistic Zuckerman referred to in his column -- the U-6 unemployment rate -- is sometimes offered as a more "complete" picture of joblessness. It doesn’t just include those who BLS officially considers "unemployed" but also those working part time for economic reasons as well as those who are "marginally attached" to the work force (meaning they want to work but have not looked for work recently enough to count as being actively in the labor force).

Currently, the U-6 rate of "labor underutilization" -- which is the broadest measure of unemployment and under-employment that BLS calculates -- is 14.7 percent. That’s a whole lot higher than the more familiar 8.1 percent unemployment rate, but it’s also well below the 19 percent claimed in the ad. As we can see from Zuckerman’s column, he has reached 19 percent by taking U-6 as his base and then broadening its definition of under-employment. The ad then ran with his calculation.

Labor economists we interviewed said that what Zuckerman did is fine in theory. Even though U-6 is the broadest measurement of under-employment that BLS calculates, it still doesn’t capture everyone affected by a bad job market, such as recent graduates who never entered the labor market in the first place because they feared there would be no jobs for them.

The problem is that no reasonable expansion of U-6 gets the figure as high as 19 percent.

First, as we noted above, the more accurate figure to use for labor-force dropouts due to economic conditions is 4.6 million, not 8 million. Second, a big chunk of these 4.6 million are already counted in BLS’ basic U-6 calculation -- they’re "marginally attached" workers. In the most recent month, the marginally attached numbered 2.6 million. So to avoid double-counting, you have to subtract 2.6 million.

This leaves 2 million labor-force dropouts to add to the existing U-6 calculation. Running the new numbers -- perhaps we can call this new statistic "U-7" -- produces an under-employment rate of 16 percent, not 19 percent.

Our rating

Restore Our Future’s ad spotlights a reasonable attempt to quantify some of the hidden victims of today’s weak labor market. But due to errors of concept and calculation, the final numbers cited in the ad are too high. A more accurate measure of workforce dropouts due to the weak job market is 4.6 million, not 8 million, and what the ad would call the "real" unemployment rate is actually about 16 percent, not 19 percent. We rate the ad’s claim Mostly False.




"real" unemployment is incorrect, that statistic also incorporates "under-employment" (those working part-time for "economic" reasons).

Just sayin'. 16% real unemployment is a bold claim to make.

Once you get rid of the part-timers, it drops down to about 12% or so.

Like was reiterated constantly for several pages. With you actively participating in it.

Way to post "shocking" new info that was already known and well-discussed.


12% is the exact %age I previously posted. It's still higher than 8%.

It's higher than 8% because it's a different measure, like we explained to you for PAGES one or two weeks ago.

On September 25 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?

Agreed, if ALL Americans cared about job performance instead of "some", Obama would already have this in the bag!
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
TrickyGilligan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States641 Posts
September 24 2012 20:24 GMT
#11625
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)


These posts from non-Americans seem to come up a lot, so I'll do my best to address some of your questions.

-The US is right-leaning when compared to the rest of the developed world. I can understand that from your point of view Republicans seem out of touch, but their message does resonate with a significant portion of US voters. Now, clearly not all US residents agree, but people from outside the US tend to just write off the Republicans as a crackpot minority. This simply doesn't reflect the actual situation.

-A lot of people are upset by the economy and healthcare reform, and Obama gets a ton of the blame for both of these things. Without getting into if either of these things are actually in a poor state, understand that while a lot of voters aren't impressed with Romney, they're willing to vote for anyone who isn't Obama.

-US politics are very, very partisan. I'm 26, I've never missed an election, and in 8 years of voting I have never, ever voted for someone not in my party. I can't see a situation where that will change in the future either. This isn't just something personal either, you'll find this to be fairly typical among people who are politically active. So what that means is a huge majority of the country will simply vote along party lines, and it's up to the very small number of independents and undecided voters who actually wins. Worse, our voter turnout is terrible compared to other democracies. All of these factors lead to very close elections, even when it looks like one candidate has a clear advantage.

All that said, I do think that Obama is likely to win, but all this talk of him having it in the bag seems really premature.
"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it." -Groucho Marx
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
September 24 2012 20:30 GMT
#11626
On September 25 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?


Hopefully they prefer their airplane windows closed though.
Yargh
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
September 24 2012 20:31 GMT
#11627
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)


Because Americans hate change, which breeds a culture of intolerance, 'exceptionalism' and fear ... goodnight everybody!



Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
September 24 2012 20:33 GMT
#11628
On September 25 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?


If that were true, Bush probably wouldn't gotten 8 years. Let's be honest.
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 20:36:58
September 24 2012 20:34 GMT
#11629
On September 25 2012 05:33 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote:
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?


If that were true, Bush probably wouldn't gotten 8 years. Let's be honest.


Go to sleep already. Side note, the below are pretty gold:

[image loading]
Yargh
Mazer
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada1086 Posts
September 24 2012 20:38 GMT
#11630
On September 25 2012 05:33 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote:
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?


If that were true, Bush probably wouldn't gotten 8 years. Let's be honest.


And the GOP wouldn't be distancing themselves from him in every way possible... I mean, it's pretty telling when Clinton gives a 50 minute speech at the DNC but Bush is absolutely no where near Romney.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
September 24 2012 20:46 GMT
#11631
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)


That ... was Palin-esque.
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
September 24 2012 20:55 GMT
#11632
On September 25 2012 04:32 Defacer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 04:19 farvacola wrote:
On September 25 2012 04:08 RCMDVA wrote:

Outside of Charlottesville, Alexandria, and Arlington.. I live right in the middle of probably the 4th biggest Lib area in Virginia.

And without a doubt there have got to be 80% fewer Obama/Biden signs out there. I stuggle to see more that 2-3 Obama signs in peoples yards/windows. The most enthusiasim is for two city council races. And there are a few Tim Kaine (Sentate) sings out as well.

Now. There are a whole hell of a lot fewer Romey signs than McCain/Palin ones as well. In fact I think there are more old Ron Paul signs up than Romney ones. And zero ones for George Allen (senate).


Well my family members living in Loudoun and Fairfax counties are telling me that they've seen a large increase in Democratic visibility, especially in places like Herndon, Reston, and Tysons Corner. I'm told the local Obama campaign is somewhat energized by the ever increasing number of hispanic voters. We'll just have to wait and see


Yeah. Too bad due to Voter ID laws an estimated 10 million previously eligible voters in these state won't be able to vote unless they get their IDs.

I really don't understand why more American's aren't freaking out about this.



Americans largely don't give a damn about civil rights. And the small number who do are vastly outweighed by the number who think we're being overrun by illegal Mexicans.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 20:58:15
September 24 2012 20:57 GMT
#11633
Apathy, Jingoism, Religious zealotry, and Idiocracy are this country's major problems.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
stevarius
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1394 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 21:07:58
September 24 2012 21:06 GMT
#11634
On September 25 2012 05:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Apathy, Jingoism, Religious zealotry, and Idiocracy are this country's major problems.


The people from my state think you're wrong and would counter that the problems are: Obama, Obama, and Obama.

I hate Georgia. :D


On a more serious note, people really don't give a fuck. I recall trying to volunteer for notoriously positive organizations in my local community. You couldn't contact them, volunteer to do something valuable and actually make a difference and many that were staffed there didn't give a shit. They would; however, be glad to take your donation money.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Signet
Profile Joined March 2007
United States1718 Posts
September 24 2012 21:14 GMT
#11635
On September 25 2012 05:24 TrickyGilligan wrote:
-US politics are very, very partisan. I'm 26, I've never missed an election, and in 8 years of voting I have never, ever voted for someone not in my party. I can't see a situation where that will change in the future either. This isn't just something personal either, you'll find this to be fairly typical among people who are politically active. So what that means is a huge majority of the country will simply vote along party lines, and it's up to the very small number of independents and undecided voters who actually wins. Worse, our voter turnout is terrible compared to other democracies. All of these factors lead to very close elections, even when it looks like one candidate has a clear advantage.

It's also worth mentioning that our polarization is becoming more pronounced with time. I'm 30 and have voted for a few candidates for federal offices from both major parties in the past, but at this point I can't see myself voting for one of them until something changes. (local candidates who might be a bit different from the national party, sure)

In this environment, it's more worth a candidate's time to try to motivate the people who are solidly on their side than to try to persuade the small number of undecideds. So a lot of our discourse has deteriorated into basically two angry camps yelling at each other.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 21:15:46
September 24 2012 21:15 GMT
#11636
On September 25 2012 05:38 Mazer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2012 05:33 Defacer wrote:
On September 25 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote:
On September 25 2012 05:11 Amui wrote:
On the outside looking in(I'm Canadian), how is it possible for Obama to lose this election without some major screwups? Romney has given the middle finger to half the country, appears to be a rich snob from my end, and republican policies just seem like pipedreams.

Oh and then you get glorious links to pure stupidity on reddit daily.(engineering student, so stuff like this makes me facepalm)

Because some Americans actually care about job performance?


If that were true, Bush probably wouldn't gotten 8 years. Let's be honest.


And the GOP wouldn't be distancing themselves from him in every way possible... I mean, it's pretty telling when Clinton gives a 50 minute speech at the DNC but Bush is absolutely no where near Romney.


While your point is valid, I suspect Bush is still politically close enough to kryptonite that him avoiding Romney would be good. It is telling that Christie/Jeb Bush/every candidate that has a shot in 2016 has kept their mouths firmly shut or condemned his stupider comments, though.
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
September 24 2012 21:18 GMT
#11637
On September 25 2012 05:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Apathy, Jingoism, Religious zealotry, and Idiocracy are this country's major problems.


Pretty soon we'll be using mountain dew to water the crops! :D

But I agree, our country has seem to have lost alot of what kept us strong in the past.
rshswe
Profile Joined March 2012
Sweden40 Posts
September 24 2012 21:26 GMT
#11638
This system seems wierd in my eyes... Then again, not american
Starcraft was created to have a worst race. You always pick the worst one."
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-24 22:10:01
September 24 2012 22:03 GMT
#11639
It's depressing that Mitt Romney can insult half of America and still the race is pretty close. And I'm in the 53%. Romney apparently thinks that I'm a contested vote...

On September 25 2012 05:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Apathy, Jingoism, Religious zealotry, and Idiocracy are this country's major problems.


Sadly, I think almost all of these are due to money in politics right now. The fact is that the country has gone much further to the left in the last few decades, but our politics has gone much further to the right. I mean they've shown that in a Senate or House race it's something like 93% chance to win if you have more money (presidential and governor elections are better). That's a ridiculous number. No other factor correlates like that. Who cares if people are democrats or republicans or libertarians or whatever.

That kind of thing makes people feel incredibly cynical about the whole process. People overwhelmingly think that our politics is corrupt. And it is.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
September 24 2012 22:16 GMT
#11640
On September 25 2012 05:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Apathy, Jingoism, Religious zealotry, and Idiocracy are this country's major problems.

You're aware that the Founders also complained and worried about these things?

So long as voters are empowered to make rational decisions and more importantly, correct any bad decisions, this country will be okay.

You don't want to get TOO deep into the "American voters are idiots" thing. After all, your candidate might win =p.
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