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I can't wait until Romney has to debate Obama over the Affordable Healthcare Act. That's going to be a real eye-opener for some people, Romney fans most of all. All Obama has to do is to say, "Thank you Romney, for providing this country the first healthcare plan centered around mandating insurance. We've appreciated using your ideas."
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On August 31 2012 14:42 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:36 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:29 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 13:31 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:25 Roe wrote:On August 31 2012 13:20 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:18 Adreme wrote:On August 31 2012 13:16 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:13 Defacer wrote:On August 31 2012 13:06 xDaunt wrote:
All in all, it was a good convention for Romney and the republicans. Some of the speeches were exemplary, particularly those given by Paul Ryan, Condi Rice, and Ann Romney. I think the case was made that needed to be made. Now, Romney is free to dump his $200 million war chest into the election and really start the national campaign. We will see how it goes.
I'm interested in seeing what the democrats do. I'm expecting 1) a celebration of feminism, and 2) more arguments about the failed republican policies of the past. I'm curious as to how democrats are going to present their accomplishments of the past four years. They are going to have to present something demonstrably positive rather than just tearing republicans down. Holy shit ... we actually agree! Oh wait, I actually thought Paul Ryan was meh. Rubio was strong, and a natural speaker. And Romney did as great job humanizing himself, even though he leaned on the same old talking points at the end. Rubio spoke in nice platitudes. Ryan drew blood and really hurt Obama. That is why liberals are bending over backwards to "fact check" his speech. Its kind of weird when you qutoation mark facts as though facts are evil and you shoudl be able to accuse someone of whatever you want. Fact checking implies truth seeking. That is not what the liberals are doing, so I put it in quotes. Tell me more. I'm too tired to go through it all again. There's been plenty of discussion about it in this thread already. Paul Ryan knowingly lied, even about things which he had personal experience with. It's been proven numerous times in this thread, through very legitimate sources. Deal with it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-30/paul-ryan-s-hypocritical-attack-on-barack-obama.htmlRyan criticized Obama for ignoring his own debt commission. “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. Too many of its members dissented from the report for it to be adopted as the commission’s official report. One of those dissenters was Paul Ryan. I swear, this is the face of modern conservatism that's evolved over the past few elections: misrepresenting anything and everything for the sake of winning, with the expectation that we should all just see it as good fun, like you do. And when someone acknowledges what you're doing, just accuse them of the very thing which you're guilty of, so as to make everything one dichotomy of accusations. Nothing is correct or incorrect, just Democrat and Republican. We see how much Republicans sincerely enjoy this. Taking an Obama quote out of context and parading it as your number-one slogan as the centerpiece of your convention. How many Republicans cheered at that quote, "I built that", knowing it's just a mockery of something that's been twisted and taken completely out of context? I will honestly thank god when all this fails to impress the majority of U.S. voters. It will reaffirm my faith in humanity. Reading through that article, he didn't really lie about anything. Just left out key details about his involvement with the plans mentioned, hence the title being 'Paul Ryan's hypocritical Attacks' and not 'Paul Ryan's False Attacks'. Calling him a liar and calling him a hypocrit is a huge difference. The report wasn't from the Debt Commission -- that's a lie. He says "they" gave it to him, referring to the Debt Commission, detaching himself from something he was a part of -- that's a lie. He should have said "we" gave it to him. But they didn't. The Debt Commission didn't adopt that report, as Paul Ryan himself vetoed it. Everything about it is a lie.
quote taken from the article “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.”
an urgent report isn't a debt commission report, its just a report, no quote in that article mentions it is the debt commission report,
"That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. "
of course not, its just 'an urgent report' according to Ryan.
I'm not supporting Ryan here, I just want to clear up some facts.
. Now I don't have his speech memorized, but if you can find a different quote where he specifically states he came back with a debt commission report please let me know.
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On August 31 2012 14:24 Infernal Knight wrote:Show nested quote +I'd be a bit more negative on the GM / Chrysler bailouts, but overall a pretty fair report card IMO. I'm curious why conservatives have such hate for mass transit, as evinced in the 'F' grade due to the high-speed rail proposals. The Shinkansen (Japan's famous bullet train) is absolutely amazing and I have no idea why it's a political anathema to conservatives. Granted, my personal view is shaped by where I live and how vital train travel is to me, but it saddens me that there's nothing even remotely close back at home - coming from one of the few people who actually rode AMTRAK on a regular basis.
If the Federal government was better at running mass transit systems they wouldn't hate them so much. AMTRAK is pretty horribly mis-managed. In general mass transit is a bit tougher in the US since travel distances tend to be longer and passenger trains have to often share rails with freight trains.
As for the Economist grade they were probably influenced by the number of high-speed rail projects that have been cancelled or are in danger of being cancelled due to higher costs, politics or local opposition. It's pretty hard to give a good grade for trying to do something and failing to do it.
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http://factcheck.org/
Pretty good site imo. Goes after both parties and backs up their analysis with evidence. Much better than trusting what some tard says on CNN. :D
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On August 31 2012 14:48 Phant wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:42 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 14:36 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:29 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 13:31 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:25 Roe wrote:On August 31 2012 13:20 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:18 Adreme wrote:On August 31 2012 13:16 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:13 Defacer wrote:
[quote]
Holy shit ... we actually agree!
Oh wait, I actually thought Paul Ryan was meh. Rubio was strong, and a natural speaker. And Romney did as great job humanizing himself, even though he leaned on the same old talking points at the end. Rubio spoke in nice platitudes. Ryan drew blood and really hurt Obama. That is why liberals are bending over backwards to "fact check" his speech. Its kind of weird when you qutoation mark facts as though facts are evil and you shoudl be able to accuse someone of whatever you want. Fact checking implies truth seeking. That is not what the liberals are doing, so I put it in quotes. Tell me more. I'm too tired to go through it all again. There's been plenty of discussion about it in this thread already. Paul Ryan knowingly lied, even about things which he had personal experience with. It's been proven numerous times in this thread, through very legitimate sources. Deal with it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-30/paul-ryan-s-hypocritical-attack-on-barack-obama.htmlRyan criticized Obama for ignoring his own debt commission. “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. Too many of its members dissented from the report for it to be adopted as the commission’s official report. One of those dissenters was Paul Ryan. I swear, this is the face of modern conservatism that's evolved over the past few elections: misrepresenting anything and everything for the sake of winning, with the expectation that we should all just see it as good fun, like you do. And when someone acknowledges what you're doing, just accuse them of the very thing which you're guilty of, so as to make everything one dichotomy of accusations. Nothing is correct or incorrect, just Democrat and Republican. We see how much Republicans sincerely enjoy this. Taking an Obama quote out of context and parading it as your number-one slogan as the centerpiece of your convention. How many Republicans cheered at that quote, "I built that", knowing it's just a mockery of something that's been twisted and taken completely out of context? I will honestly thank god when all this fails to impress the majority of U.S. voters. It will reaffirm my faith in humanity. Reading through that article, he didn't really lie about anything. Just left out key details about his involvement with the plans mentioned, hence the title being 'Paul Ryan's hypocritical Attacks' and not 'Paul Ryan's False Attacks'. Calling him a liar and calling him a hypocrit is a huge difference. The report wasn't from the Debt Commission -- that's a lie. He says "they" gave it to him, referring to the Debt Commission, detaching himself from something he was a part of -- that's a lie. He should have said "we" gave it to him. But they didn't. The Debt Commission didn't adopt that report, as Paul Ryan himself vetoed it. Everything about it is a lie. quote taken from the article “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” an urgent report isn't a debt commission report, its just a report, no quote in that article mentions it is the debt commission report, "That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. " of course not, its just 'an urgent report' according to Ryan. I'm not supporting Ryan here, I just want to clear up some facts. . Now I don't have his speach memorized, but if you can find a different quote where he specifically states he came back with a debt commission report please let me know.
Here is the actual quote from Ryan's speech, with the one precluding sentence not in the Bloomberg article:
He created a new bipartisan debt commission. They came back with an urgent report. He thanks them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.
So "they" is most definitely referring to the Debt Commission. Paul Ryan said that the Debt Commission "came back to Obama" with a report. The Debt Commission didn't give him that report -- because Paul Ryan himself dissented from it. So Obama did not receive that report -- if he indeed received this report at all -- from his own-created debt commission.
It is a lie. Hypocrisy, yes. And it is furthermore, a lie. Even the fact that he talks about the Debt Commission and its report without mentioning his personal involvement is really just a lie by omission.
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On August 31 2012 14:59 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:48 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:42 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 14:36 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:29 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 13:31 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:25 Roe wrote:On August 31 2012 13:20 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:18 Adreme wrote:On August 31 2012 13:16 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Rubio spoke in nice platitudes. Ryan drew blood and really hurt Obama. That is why liberals are bending over backwards to "fact check" his speech. Its kind of weird when you qutoation mark facts as though facts are evil and you shoudl be able to accuse someone of whatever you want. Fact checking implies truth seeking. That is not what the liberals are doing, so I put it in quotes. Tell me more. I'm too tired to go through it all again. There's been plenty of discussion about it in this thread already. Paul Ryan knowingly lied, even about things which he had personal experience with. It's been proven numerous times in this thread, through very legitimate sources. Deal with it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-30/paul-ryan-s-hypocritical-attack-on-barack-obama.htmlRyan criticized Obama for ignoring his own debt commission. “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. Too many of its members dissented from the report for it to be adopted as the commission’s official report. One of those dissenters was Paul Ryan. I swear, this is the face of modern conservatism that's evolved over the past few elections: misrepresenting anything and everything for the sake of winning, with the expectation that we should all just see it as good fun, like you do. And when someone acknowledges what you're doing, just accuse them of the very thing which you're guilty of, so as to make everything one dichotomy of accusations. Nothing is correct or incorrect, just Democrat and Republican. We see how much Republicans sincerely enjoy this. Taking an Obama quote out of context and parading it as your number-one slogan as the centerpiece of your convention. How many Republicans cheered at that quote, "I built that", knowing it's just a mockery of something that's been twisted and taken completely out of context? I will honestly thank god when all this fails to impress the majority of U.S. voters. It will reaffirm my faith in humanity. Reading through that article, he didn't really lie about anything. Just left out key details about his involvement with the plans mentioned, hence the title being 'Paul Ryan's hypocritical Attacks' and not 'Paul Ryan's False Attacks'. Calling him a liar and calling him a hypocrit is a huge difference. The report wasn't from the Debt Commission -- that's a lie. He says "they" gave it to him, referring to the Debt Commission, detaching himself from something he was a part of -- that's a lie. He should have said "we" gave it to him. But they didn't. The Debt Commission didn't adopt that report, as Paul Ryan himself vetoed it. Everything about it is a lie. quote taken from the article “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” an urgent report isn't a debt commission report, its just a report, no quote in that article mentions it is the debt commission report, "That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. " of course not, its just 'an urgent report' according to Ryan. I'm not supporting Ryan here, I just want to clear up some facts. . Now I don't have his speach memorized, but if you can find a different quote where he specifically states he came back with a debt commission report please let me know. Here is the actual quote from Ryan's speech, with the one precluding sentence not in the Bloomberg article: Show nested quote +He created a new bipartisan debt commission. They came back with an urgent report. He thanks them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing. So "they" is most definitely referring to the Debt Commission. Paul Ryan said that the Debt Commission "came back to Obama" with a report. The Debt Commission didn't give him that report -- because Paul Ryan himself dissented from it. So Obama did not receive that report from his own-created debt commission. It is a lie. Hypocrisy, yes. And it is furthermore, a lie.
do you have a source saying no report got to Obama?
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On August 31 2012 14:59 screamingpalm wrote:http://factcheck.org/Pretty good site imo. Goes after both parties and backs up their analysis with evidence. Much better than trusting what some tard says on CNN. :D
Yar, that and politifact are quite reliable sites that do their research well 
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On August 31 2012 15:01 Phant wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:59 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 14:48 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:42 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 14:36 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:29 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 13:31 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:25 Roe wrote:On August 31 2012 13:20 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:18 Adreme wrote:
[quote]
Its kind of weird when you qutoation mark facts as though facts are evil and you shoudl be able to accuse someone of whatever you want. Fact checking implies truth seeking. That is not what the liberals are doing, so I put it in quotes. Tell me more. I'm too tired to go through it all again. There's been plenty of discussion about it in this thread already. Paul Ryan knowingly lied, even about things which he had personal experience with. It's been proven numerous times in this thread, through very legitimate sources. Deal with it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-30/paul-ryan-s-hypocritical-attack-on-barack-obama.htmlRyan criticized Obama for ignoring his own debt commission. “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. Too many of its members dissented from the report for it to be adopted as the commission’s official report. One of those dissenters was Paul Ryan. I swear, this is the face of modern conservatism that's evolved over the past few elections: misrepresenting anything and everything for the sake of winning, with the expectation that we should all just see it as good fun, like you do. And when someone acknowledges what you're doing, just accuse them of the very thing which you're guilty of, so as to make everything one dichotomy of accusations. Nothing is correct or incorrect, just Democrat and Republican. We see how much Republicans sincerely enjoy this. Taking an Obama quote out of context and parading it as your number-one slogan as the centerpiece of your convention. How many Republicans cheered at that quote, "I built that", knowing it's just a mockery of something that's been twisted and taken completely out of context? I will honestly thank god when all this fails to impress the majority of U.S. voters. It will reaffirm my faith in humanity. Reading through that article, he didn't really lie about anything. Just left out key details about his involvement with the plans mentioned, hence the title being 'Paul Ryan's hypocritical Attacks' and not 'Paul Ryan's False Attacks'. Calling him a liar and calling him a hypocrit is a huge difference. The report wasn't from the Debt Commission -- that's a lie. He says "they" gave it to him, referring to the Debt Commission, detaching himself from something he was a part of -- that's a lie. He should have said "we" gave it to him. But they didn't. The Debt Commission didn't adopt that report, as Paul Ryan himself vetoed it. Everything about it is a lie. quote taken from the article “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” an urgent report isn't a debt commission report, its just a report, no quote in that article mentions it is the debt commission report, "That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. " of course not, its just 'an urgent report' according to Ryan. I'm not supporting Ryan here, I just want to clear up some facts. . Now I don't have his speach memorized, but if you can find a different quote where he specifically states he came back with a debt commission report please let me know. Here is the actual quote from Ryan's speech, with the one precluding sentence not in the Bloomberg article: He created a new bipartisan debt commission. They came back with an urgent report. He thanks them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing. So "they" is most definitely referring to the Debt Commission. Paul Ryan said that the Debt Commission "came back to Obama" with a report. The Debt Commission didn't give him that report -- because Paul Ryan himself dissented from it. So Obama did not receive that report from his own-created debt commission. It is a lie. Hypocrisy, yes. And it is furthermore, a lie. do you have a source saying no report got to Obama?
Of course not. I can't prove God doesn't exist either. But I can prove that Ryan's statements were factually incorrect, because if Obama did receive a report on the matter of debt (we're getting really vague here), it wasn't a report that "[the Debt Commission] came back with". Ryan made a specific claim involving the bipartisan Debt Commission, and that report was dissented from by both parties. Obama didn't ignore it anymore than Ryan himself did.
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On August 31 2012 15:07 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 15:01 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:59 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 14:48 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:42 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 14:36 Phant wrote:On August 31 2012 14:29 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 13:31 xDaunt wrote:On August 31 2012 13:25 Roe wrote:On August 31 2012 13:20 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Fact checking implies truth seeking. That is not what the liberals are doing, so I put it in quotes. Tell me more. I'm too tired to go through it all again. There's been plenty of discussion about it in this thread already. Paul Ryan knowingly lied, even about things which he had personal experience with. It's been proven numerous times in this thread, through very legitimate sources. Deal with it. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-30/paul-ryan-s-hypocritical-attack-on-barack-obama.htmlRyan criticized Obama for ignoring his own debt commission. “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. Too many of its members dissented from the report for it to be adopted as the commission’s official report. One of those dissenters was Paul Ryan. I swear, this is the face of modern conservatism that's evolved over the past few elections: misrepresenting anything and everything for the sake of winning, with the expectation that we should all just see it as good fun, like you do. And when someone acknowledges what you're doing, just accuse them of the very thing which you're guilty of, so as to make everything one dichotomy of accusations. Nothing is correct or incorrect, just Democrat and Republican. We see how much Republicans sincerely enjoy this. Taking an Obama quote out of context and parading it as your number-one slogan as the centerpiece of your convention. How many Republicans cheered at that quote, "I built that", knowing it's just a mockery of something that's been twisted and taken completely out of context? I will honestly thank god when all this fails to impress the majority of U.S. voters. It will reaffirm my faith in humanity. Reading through that article, he didn't really lie about anything. Just left out key details about his involvement with the plans mentioned, hence the title being 'Paul Ryan's hypocritical Attacks' and not 'Paul Ryan's False Attacks'. Calling him a liar and calling him a hypocrit is a huge difference. The report wasn't from the Debt Commission -- that's a lie. He says "they" gave it to him, referring to the Debt Commission, detaching himself from something he was a part of -- that's a lie. He should have said "we" gave it to him. But they didn't. The Debt Commission didn't adopt that report, as Paul Ryan himself vetoed it. Everything about it is a lie. quote taken from the article “They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” an urgent report isn't a debt commission report, its just a report, no quote in that article mentions it is the debt commission report, "That urgent report? Technically, it wasn’t a report from the debt commission. " of course not, its just 'an urgent report' according to Ryan. I'm not supporting Ryan here, I just want to clear up some facts. . Now I don't have his speach memorized, but if you can find a different quote where he specifically states he came back with a debt commission report please let me know. Here is the actual quote from Ryan's speech, with the one precluding sentence not in the Bloomberg article: He created a new bipartisan debt commission. They came back with an urgent report. He thanks them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing. So "they" is most definitely referring to the Debt Commission. Paul Ryan said that the Debt Commission "came back to Obama" with a report. The Debt Commission didn't give him that report -- because Paul Ryan himself dissented from it. So Obama did not receive that report from his own-created debt commission. It is a lie. Hypocrisy, yes. And it is furthermore, a lie. do you have a source saying no report got to Obama? Of course not. I can't prove God doesn't exist either. But I can prove that Ryan's statements were factually incorrect, because if Obama did receive a report on the matter of debt (we're getting really vague here), it wasn't a report that "[the Debt Commission] came back with". Ryan made a specific claim involving the bipartisan Debt Commission, and that report was dissented from by both parties. Obama didn't ignore it anymore than Ryan himself did.
Well Since everyone seems to be using factcheck, I might as well too.
from their article on Ryan's speech
"Like Ryan, Obama thanked the commission in a Dec. 3, 2010, statement that promised to “study closely” its proposals for possible inclusion in his own budget plans. Nine months later, Obama submitted a deficit reduction plan to the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction that was designed to reduce the deficit by $3.6 trillion over 10 years through a package of spending cuts and tax hikes."
So clearly, the debt commision came up with a report outlining proposals that Obama did in fact see. Now as far as 'doing exactly nothing' technically Obama did do exactly nothing with that proposal, he made his own deficit reduction plan that could have been influenced by the report (i don't know). But still, Ryan technically didn't lie. he DEFINITELY had extremely misleading comments, but lied? not really.
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If I remember correctly the debt commission couldn't come to an agreement on everything. Half of them (or some number) proceeded to make all their recommendations known that were in the report that was written but that not all of them signed off on by making it public, sending it to the president, house, and senate.
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On August 31 2012 14:48 Leporello wrote:
I can't wait until Romney has to debate Obama over the Affordable Healthcare Act. That's going to be a real eye-opener for some people, Romney fans most of all. All Obama has to do is to say, "Thank you Romney, for providing this country the first healthcare plan centered around mandating insurance. We've appreciated using your ideas."
Federal government vs state government issue. That's definitely how I see it; however, you're right in saying that most people who support Romney are also blindly against 'government health care."
I'm curious why conservatives have such hate for mass transit, as evinced in the 'F' grade due to the high-speed rail proposals. The Shinkansen (Japan's famous bullet train) is absolutely amazing and I have no idea why it's a political anathema to conservatives. Granted, my personal view is shaped by where I live and how vital train travel is to me, but it saddens me that there's nothing even remotely close back at home - coming from one of the few people who actually rode AMTRAK on a regular basis.
I don't see how a high speed rail system really fits anywhere into the America lifestyle. Lowspeed trains and buses do a good job of getting people into and out of metro areas as it is right now. Building up a high speed rail system would cost a fortune and provide very little new services.
Basically, where would this train take you? Not enough people would use it for it to be worthwile.
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On August 31 2012 15:13 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
If I remember correctly the debt commission couldn't come to an agreement on everything. Half of them (or some number) proceeded to make all their recommendations known that were in the report that was written but that not all of them signed off on by making it public, sending it to the president, house, and senate.
Correct, there was no official report from the Debt Commission.
Well Since everyone seems to be using factcheck, I might as well too.
from their article on Ryan's speech
"Like Ryan, Obama thanked the commission in a Dec. 3, 2010, statement that promised to “study closely” its proposals for possible inclusion in his own budget plans. Nine months later, Obama submitted a deficit reduction plan to the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction that was designed to reduce the deficit by $3.6 trillion over 10 years through a package of spending cuts and tax hikes."
So clearly, the debt commision came up with a report outlining proposals that Obama did in fact see. Now as far as 'doing exactly nothing' technically Obama did do exactly nothing with that proposal, he made his own deficit reduction plan that could have been influenced by the report (i don't know). But still, Ryan technically didn't lie. he DEFINITELY had extremely misleading comments, but lied? not really.
The fact check article only states that Obama created this commission and then later submitted his own plan. It wasn't the Debt Commission's plan, because they never came up with one they agreed with. The Debt Commission failed. There was no official bipartisan report from that commission.
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The funny thing about this all is how the Debt Commission was one of Obama's most right-wing political moves.
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On August 31 2012 15:17 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 15:13 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
If I remember correctly the debt commission couldn't come to an agreement on everything. Half of them (or some number) proceeded to make all their recommendations known that were in the report that was written but that not all of them signed off on by making it public, sending it to the president, house, and senate. Correct, there was no official report from the Debt Commission. Show nested quote +Well Since everyone seems to be using factcheck, I might as well too.
from their article on Ryan's speech
"Like Ryan, Obama thanked the commission in a Dec. 3, 2010, statement that promised to “study closely” its proposals for possible inclusion in his own budget plans. Nine months later, Obama submitted a deficit reduction plan to the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction that was designed to reduce the deficit by $3.6 trillion over 10 years through a package of spending cuts and tax hikes."
So clearly, the debt commision came up with a report outlining proposals that Obama did in fact see. Now as far as 'doing exactly nothing' technically Obama did do exactly nothing with that proposal, he made his own deficit reduction plan that could have been influenced by the report (i don't know). But still, Ryan technically didn't lie. he DEFINITELY had extremely misleading comments, but lied? not really.
The fact check article only states that Obama created this commission and then later submitted his own plan. It wasn't the Debt Commission's plan, because they never came up with one they agreed with. The Debt Commission failed. There was no official bipartisan report from that commission.
Of course there was no official bipartisan report, but there was a report. Like I said, I am not agreeing with Ryan, I am just trying to show that he didn't lie, which he did not. He is just ridiciulosly misleading.
It's like PR spin,technically that spin is true, by leaving out key information or through clever wording you can make it sound better/worse than it really is. It's still true, just not the entire story. If I say 'Under President Obama the deficit reached it's highest level in American history' It kind of sounds like I am blaming Obama, but really I am not. If I tried a lot harder I can make it sound like he is responsible without actually saying he is responsible.
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If at this point the only thing Obama supporters think will save Hopey McChangey at this point is "ZOMG RYAN! ZOMG Factory! Ryan said something about a factory that wasn't true! Pay no attention to the epic failure and disappoint of the past 4 years, did you hear Ryan said something misleading about a random factory??!"
This country is f'ing doomed. Nobody discusses real problems or solutions, it's all stupid soundbites and "gotchas"
ZOMG Obama said "you didn't build it!" etc.
I would have hoped people on this forum weren't in that lowest common denominator that politicians pander to, but yet even here people spout the same tired useless junk.
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On August 31 2012 15:15 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:48 Leporello wrote:
I can't wait until Romney has to debate Obama over the Affordable Healthcare Act. That's going to be a real eye-opener for some people, Romney fans most of all. All Obama has to do is to say, "Thank you Romney, for providing this country the first healthcare plan centered around mandating insurance. We've appreciated using your ideas." Federal government vs state government issue. That's definitely how I see it; however, you're right in saying that most people who support Romney are also blindly against 'government health care." Re public transit: In cities it's pretty good (I've only experienced NYC/DC/Chicago), but once you get outside of the cities it's mostly transportation focus on getting people to the cities and not much else. Government seems to be doing a pretty shitty job in many public transportation systems.
Oh I've already heard Romney on the issue that it "worked for my State, but not for the Country." But that doesn't really push away the fact that Obama's Affordable Healthcare Act actually owes itself to Romney's own ideas.
He can still argue against Obama's plan, but not nearly to the extent that Republicans would like. And he's going to come off as hypocritical pretty much no matter what he does.
Interesting article I found: the first federal mandate for healthcare was instituted by the Commie-Pinko President John Adams.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/29099806/Act-for-the-Relief-of-Sick-DisabledSeamen-July-1798
Wth July,
1798.CHAP. [94.] An act for the relief of sick and disabled seamen.
1
§ 1.
Be it enacted, Sfc.
That from and after the first day of September next, the master or owner of every ship or vessel of the United States, arriving from a foreign port into any port of theUnited States, shall, before such ship or vessel shall be admitted to an entry, render to the collector a true account of the number of seamen that shall have been employed on board such vessel since she was last entered at any port in the United States, and shall pay, to the said collector, at the rate of twenty cents per month for every seaman so employed ; which sum he ishereby authorized to retain out of the wages of such seamen.
...
§ 3. That it shall be the duty of the several collectors to make a quarterly return of the sums collected by them, respectively, by virtue of this act, to the secretary of the treasury ; and the president of the United States is hereby authorized, out of the same, to provide for the temporary relief and maintenance of sick, or disabled seamen, in the hospitals or other proper institutions now established in the several ports of the United States,
I was originally going to accuse Romney of being the first American politician to mandate healthcare, but I'd be wrong. It turns out to be a long-standing American tradition. And John Adams wasn't even mandating people buy third-party insurance, he straight-up hired collectors to tax these people to insure they be sent to appropriate hospitals/institutions.
This was all done at the Federal level, of course. No wonder even the conservative Supreme Court ruled Obama's Healthcare Act as being Constitutional. What's scary is four of the conservative judges dissented. I wonder what Scalia would think of John Adams' Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seaman.
What an unbelievable Socialist John Adams was. In fact, that almost goes beyond Socialism into the realm of Communism.
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On August 31 2012 15:23 Phant wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 15:17 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 15:13 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
If I remember correctly the debt commission couldn't come to an agreement on everything. Half of them (or some number) proceeded to make all their recommendations known that were in the report that was written but that not all of them signed off on by making it public, sending it to the president, house, and senate. Correct, there was no official report from the Debt Commission. Well Since everyone seems to be using factcheck, I might as well too.
from their article on Ryan's speech
"Like Ryan, Obama thanked the commission in a Dec. 3, 2010, statement that promised to “study closely” its proposals for possible inclusion in his own budget plans. Nine months later, Obama submitted a deficit reduction plan to the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction that was designed to reduce the deficit by $3.6 trillion over 10 years through a package of spending cuts and tax hikes."
So clearly, the debt commision came up with a report outlining proposals that Obama did in fact see. Now as far as 'doing exactly nothing' technically Obama did do exactly nothing with that proposal, he made his own deficit reduction plan that could have been influenced by the report (i don't know). But still, Ryan technically didn't lie. he DEFINITELY had extremely misleading comments, but lied? not really.
The fact check article only states that Obama created this commission and then later submitted his own plan. It wasn't the Debt Commission's plan, because they never came up with one they agreed with. The Debt Commission failed. There was no official bipartisan report from that commission. Of course there ws no official bipartisan report, but there was a report. Like I said, I am not agreeing with Ryan, I am just trying to show that he didn't lie, which he did not. He is just ridiciulosly misleading. It's like PR spin,technically that spin is true, by leaving out key information or through clever wording you can make it sound better/worse than it really is. It's still true, just not the entire story. If I say 'Under President Obama the deficit reached it's highest level in American history' It kind of sounds like I am blaming Obama, but really I am not. If I tried a lot harder I can make it sound like he is responsible without actually saying he is responsible.
So what you are saying is Romney didn't lie, but purposely mislead and deceived the public. (not saying most don't do the same) Isn't lying and deceiving along the same lines? Just trying to point out that if he "lied" or not is not the point.
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On August 31 2012 15:29 Zaqwert wrote:
If at this point the only thing Obama supporters think will save Hopey McChangey at this point is "ZOMG RYAN! ZOMG Factory! Ryan said something about a factory that wasn't true! Pay no attention to the epic failure and disappoint of the past 4 years, did you hear Ryan said something misleading about a random factory??!"
This country is f'ing doomed. Nobody discusses real problems or solutions, it's all stupid soundbites and "gotchas"
ZOMG Obama said "you didn't build it!" etc.
I would have hoped people on this forum weren't in that lowest common denominator that politicians pander to, but yet even here people spout the same tired useless junk.
I like how you accuse people of not discussing the real issues while simultaneously blanketing the last four years, specifically, as "epic failure and disappointment." The force is strong in you.
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On August 31 2012 15:23 Phant wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 15:17 Leporello wrote:On August 31 2012 15:13 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
If I remember correctly the debt commission couldn't come to an agreement on everything. Half of them (or some number) proceeded to make all their recommendations known that were in the report that was written but that not all of them signed off on by making it public, sending it to the president, house, and senate. Correct, there was no official report from the Debt Commission. Well Since everyone seems to be using factcheck, I might as well too.
from their article on Ryan's speech
"Like Ryan, Obama thanked the commission in a Dec. 3, 2010, statement that promised to “study closely” its proposals for possible inclusion in his own budget plans. Nine months later, Obama submitted a deficit reduction plan to the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction that was designed to reduce the deficit by $3.6 trillion over 10 years through a package of spending cuts and tax hikes."
So clearly, the debt commision came up with a report outlining proposals that Obama did in fact see. Now as far as 'doing exactly nothing' technically Obama did do exactly nothing with that proposal, he made his own deficit reduction plan that could have been influenced by the report (i don't know). But still, Ryan technically didn't lie. he DEFINITELY had extremely misleading comments, but lied? not really.
The fact check article only states that Obama created this commission and then later submitted his own plan. It wasn't the Debt Commission's plan, because they never came up with one they agreed with. The Debt Commission failed. There was no official bipartisan report from that commission. Of course there was no official bipartisan report, but there was a report.
What report?
From whom?
To argue what Ryan said wasn't a lie is taking semantics to such lengths that we could argue the subjectivity of each word. Like Clinton defining what "is" means.
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On August 31 2012 15:29 Zaqwert wrote:
If at this point the only thing Obama supporters think will save Hopey McChangey at this point is "ZOMG RYAN! ZOMG Factory! Ryan said something about a factory that wasn't true! Pay no attention to the epic failure and disappoint of the past 4 years, did you hear Ryan said something misleading about a random factory??!"
This country is f'ing doomed. Nobody discusses real problems or solutions, it's all stupid soundbites and "gotchas"
ZOMG Obama said "you didn't build it!" etc.
I would have hoped people on this forum weren't in that lowest common denominator that politicians pander to, but yet even here people spout the same tired useless junk.
I see no "epic" failures of the past 4 years.
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EPT
