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Hello TL!
For those unfamiliar, when I make threads, they are long as fuck. I can't help it. It is a habit I have had since I first started posting on forums. I don't make many threads, but when I do... they are scary long. So... spare me the TL;DR. If that's the case, feel free to not post at all, because you didn’t even read it! Or you can skip down to the "*****" if you want to get to the action and skip the introduction.
Alright, prefaced! Let’s begin!
For those of you that followed the Ohio school shooting thread, you probably read some of my rants about psychopaths, school shootings and violent offenders in general. I am fascinated by school shooters, spree-killers and serial killers to the fullest extent one can be. More than anything, I am consumed with the same question everyone else is: Why? What creates these monsters? Why do they kill? How do they choose where they kill and who? Do they comprehend the nature of their actions? Are they crazy outcasts? Or are they cunning, likeable psychopaths?
I wasn't always interested in this. I read a lot of genres before I was enraptured by true-crime. But it was one book in particular that turned me onto the genre, and that book was Columbine by Dave Cullen. With the anniversary fast approaching, I thought it would be a good opportunity to start a discussion on the subject. It should be stated this thread is not about the book, it's about the actual incident. But the book is what got me interested in the incident so it's one of those 'the chicken or the egg' things. Columbine is a very divisive book. My intention is not to defend or condemn it. I loved it, but I could see the nit-picking, and felt a lot of it valid. This thread is more for people that haven't read the book than for people that have. There was a couple of things I wanted to do in this thread: Bring attention to the coming anniversary of the massacre and reiterate why we should never forget it; debunk what I consider the most pervasive myth, or misunderstanding, about Columbine; and lastly and most importantly, dive into the mind of one of the youngest, most fully realized psychopaths I have ever read about--in his own words.
There was one pervasive, all-encompassing question after Columbine: Why did they do it? This question seemed totally unanswerable for years and years after the tragedy. But the reality is, a top FBI profiler had their motives penned down about two weeks after the tragedy happened. And it wasn't because he was some genius... it was because both of the boys, specifically Eric Harris, left DETAILED journals kept for nearly A YEAR leading up to the attacks. Eric's existed for the SOUL purpose of explaining why he did it. The true bungling was the fact that the Jefferson County PD wouldn't let this investigator talk with ANYONE from the media until nearly two years after the attack. Thus, half-truths become full-truths in the absence of concrete evidence. Most of the "facts" were comprised exclusively of leaks.
I have read Columbine three times, most recently about two days ago. Every time I do, I instantly become re-obsessed with it. It fascinates me because, more than any psychopath I've ever read/read about, Eric Harris left the tools behind to be understood.
It's important to realize what Columbine was, and what it was not. We'll start with some of the under-reported stuff. Firstly, a lot of people don't realize Columbine was not planned as a shooting, not exclusively. Eric Harris loved making bombs. He spent literally a years’ worth of earnings on guns, knives, pipe bombs and ammunition. I believe he collected about 800 rounds. The kids that were attacked that day, they weren't just shot at. They literally had grenades lobbed at them... and not just a few. The bomb squad found over 100 explosive devices in the school, some detonated, some not. Both boys had torn the striking portion off of a match box and taped it to their forearm so they wouldn't have to fumble with a lighter. Eric spent a few days leading up to the massacre monitoring the Cafeteria, counting up all the people, trying to decide when "maximum human density" occurred. He documented all this in his journal, and eventually concluded he could do the most damage during A lunch, about 30 minutes into it. There were about 500 students in the cafeteria then.
So, at that time on April 20th, the boys brought in not one but two giant propane bombs and set them at key supporting struts inside the Cafeteria. It has been theorized by police, through test demolition, that this likely would have brought the second floor down on the first, which meant the Library down onto the Cafeteria--two of the most crowded portions of the school.
Oh, but that wasn't it, not by a long shot. The plan was to blow the school up and then, when everyone started running in a panic, that's when they would open fire. Then, after they cut down the remaining student body and the police showed up, they expected to be killed. But it was time for one final act, which involved the biggest bombs.
Both boys rigged huge bombs in their cars. They were parked strategically in the parking lot to maximize damage to first responders and any of the wounded, as well as journalists and parents.
All told, Eric Harris was literally trying to kill every human being in his whole high school, and anyone that came to it quickly after the violence erupted. He also set a diversionary bomb in a park right before the shooting, hoping to draw police off and make them respond more slowly. He wasn't trying to be a school shooter, he was trying to be a school bomber and a school shooter; when all four of the big bombs didn't work, Eric instantly and for the rest of time became misunderstood. If he had been just a slight bit better at wiring, that day would have been much different in the worst way possible. In all, Eric constructed over ten big propane bombs.
But we're just getting started, to get you on the up and up about just how twisted and well planned this attack was will take some reading of Eric's work. I have read the words of few humans that are so totally consumed by psychopathy and so obviously lacking empathy of any kind. The fact that Eric Harris could be so twisted so young, and with such decent parents, literally blows my mind. It makes me re-think everything I know about psychopaths. Mainly, nature verses nurture. I believe Eric was exactly what he claimed to be... his favorite movie… a Natural Born Killer.
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So after I read Columbine the most recent time, something dawned on me. While there are a lot of excerpts from the boys journals in the book, I had never actually sat down and read all of the journals myself. So I did a little poking around and found them. Unfortunately, they are written in severely illegible handwriting. So I snooped a little more and found a transcript of them! So, here it is, some of the most telling excerpts from the journals—a killer in his own words. I don't know how well circulated these have been. Maybe you've read all of them, or maybe you didn't even know they existed... regardless, if you like me find the psychopathic brain interesting, read on. These journals are truly some of the most haunting visions from one of this generations most disturbed minds. Never have I seen all the traits of psychopathy laid out so clearly, and by the offender rather than some psychologist. Few times have I seen a psychopath be so freaking stoked and blunt about being a psychopath. I have included the most interesting parts, as well as a few notes I wrote while I was reading. I hope they shine some light on "The Big Why."
(Eric's writing is italicized, mine is not)
No one is worthy of shit unless I say they are. I feel like God and I wish I was, having everyone being OFFICIALLY lower than me. I already know that I am higher than most anyone in the fucking welt [German: world] in terms of universal Intelligence.
Oh, that's just the introduction. He doesn't waste any time getting right to his superiority complex. It's no coincidence he named his journal "The Book of God."
Plus I would get rid of all the fat, retarded, crippled, stupid, dumb, ignorant, worthless people of this world. No one is worthy of this planet, only me and whoever I choose. Everyone should be shot out into space and only those people I say should be left behind.
Yearning for that control over life and death is so singularly psychopathic. The goal is not the dead body; the goal is the thrill of the kill, and the power of it. This is what makes them so dangerous; they kill again and again and again, or in a singular event on a grand scale.
When I go NBK [Natural Born Killers--going NBK is how Eric refers to the massacre] and people say things like, “oh, it was so tragic,” or “oh he is crazy!” or “It was so bloody.” I think, so the fuck what you think that’s a bad thing? Just because your mumsy and dadsy told you blood and violence are bad, you think it’s a fucking law of nature? Wrong. Only science and math are true, everything, and I mean every-fucking-thing else is Man-made.
Eric was not dumb. He was dangerously smart. He devoured high literature, loved the Nazis, read a lot of Shakespeare. I think this is what I was most struck by when I read all this... how he attempted to derive it from logic rather than admitting it was a sick, indefensible position.
I have thought too much, realized too much, found out too much, and I am too self-aware to just stop what I am thinking and go back to society because what I do and think isn’t “right” or “morally accepted.” NO, NO, NO. God fucking damn it NO! I will sooner die than betray my own thoughts. But before I leave this worthless place, I will kill who ever I deem unfit for anything at all. Especially life. And if you pissed me off in the past, you will die if I see you. Because you might be able to piss off others and have it eventually blow over, but not me. I don’t forget people who wronged me, like "John Doe." He will never get a chance to read this because he will be dead before this is discovered.
Psychopaths never forget. Ever. Ted Bundy, when his long-term girlfriend wouldn't marry him, literally went on a mission to become "respectable." He went to law school, became something to be proud of, came back years later, and purposed to her. When she said yes... he said he was just kidding, and asked her how it felt to be rejected. Psychopaths cannot deal with being beaten or one-upped. They always have a score to settle, not matter how menial. And they will do anything to settle it, but they prefer to settle it through your death. Killing is how power-assertive psychopaths solve their problems. "No person, no problem." That's actually a quote from a particularly sadistic psychopath. I read one true crime book where this guy gets cut off while driving. He gets out and walks up to the three guys that just cut him off. When they get out of the car, expecting a fight, he whips out a pistol and shoots all three of them in the head. Then, he casually gets back in his car and drives off. Problem solved. Have you ever carved a thanksgiving turkey? Did you feel bad for it? Probably not. That's how killing is for them, simply the solving of a problem.
Now, with the government having scandals and conspiracies all over the fucking place and lying to everyone all the time and with these worthless, pointless, mindless, disgraceful TV shows and with everyone ob-fucking-sessed with Hollywood and beauty and fame and glamour and politics and anything famous, people just aren’t worth saving.
It has been confirmed, after getting my yearbook and watching people that the human race isn’t worth fighting for, only worth killing. Give the Earth back to the animals, they deserve it infinitely more than we do.
And this is the beginning of what really scared me. Eric did not want to kill just one person. He didn't even want to massacre his whole school. He literally—literally—wanted to kill every human on the planet. I've read about a lot of psychopaths... but these aspirations, from an 18 year old, are the closest I’ve ever found to Hitler’s. And it scares the living shit out of me.
Well, in case you haven’t figured it out yet, I say “KILL MANKIND,” no one should survive. You know what? Fuck it. Why should I have to explain myself to you survivors when half of this shit I say you shitheads won’t understand and if you can then woopie fucking do. That just means you have something to say as to my reason for killing. And the majority of the audience won’t even understand my motives either! They’ll say “ah, he’s crazy, he’s insane, worthless!” All you fuckers should die! DIE! What the fuck is the point if only some people see what I am saying, there will always be ones who don’t, ones that are too dumb or naïve or ignorant or just plain retarded. If I can’t pound it into every single persons head then it is pointless. Fuck money fuck justice fuck morals fuck civilization fuck rules fuck laws … DIE man-made words … people think they apply to everything when they don’t/can’t. There’s no such thing as True Good or True evil, it’s all relative to the observer. It’s just all nature, chemistry, and math. Deal with it. But since dealing with it seems impossible for mankind, since we have to slap warning labels on nature, then … you die, burn, melt, evaporate, decay. Just go the fuck away. YAAAAAA!!!
This I almost find to be the most interesting passage. Columbine was literally like theater to Eric. It was his upmost concern that people "understand" why he did it. He knew the media would bungle the story before it even happened. Also, I think it's telling how he constantly mentions the "audience." Eric Harris directed Columbine like a movie, and his chief concern was how the audience would react. It was literally devised FOR an audience. It was homicidal art thinly veiled in philosophy. It was theatrical because it was planned that way. Eric didn't want to scare just one high school, he wanted to scare the whole world. And he did. I think this is important because Columbine helped create this culture of school shooting and violence. While Eric's template for the shooting was Natural Born Killers, any would be school shooter to come after Eric and Dylan had the most well penned and documented social script ever to follow. Want to know how to execute a vicious school shooting? You don't have to watch a movie anymore—just flip on the news. You have Eric Harris to thank for this. Also, how many murderers do you think Nietzsche has created through the years?
I think I will choose to kill and damage as much as nature allows me to so take that, fuck you, and eat napalm + lead! HA! Only nature can stop me. I know I could get shot by a cop after only killing a single person, but hey guess the fuck WHAT! I chose to kill that one person so get over it! It’s MY fault! Not my parents, not my brothers, not my friends, not my favorite bands, not computer games, not the media. IT is MINE! Go shut the fuck up!
Wow, this line really sticks it to those Manson and Doom haters, doesn't it? It’s amazing to me what a grasp Eric had regarding how he would be perceived.
Someone’s bound to say “what were they thinking?” when we go NBK or when we were planning it, so this is what I am thinking. “I have a goal to destroy as much as possible so I must not be sidetracked by my feelings of sympathy, mercy, or any of that, so I will force myself to believe that everyone is just another monster from Doom like FH [Former Human, mob in Doom] or FS [Former Sergeant] or demons, so it’s either me or them. I have to turn off my feelings.”
Just for the record, don't let this get you thinking Eric was sympathetic. This is common among psychopaths, saying "I feel empathy and sympathy, I just ignore it." If they really felt sympathy, true sympathy, THEY WOULDN'T MURDER PEOPLE. Plus, they are trying to dupe you. Most psychopaths are not murders, they are liars. They love lying, literally get off on deception. It's why they make such good politicians.
Keep this in mind, I want to burn the world, I want to kill everyone except about 5 people, who I will name later, so if you are reading this you are lucky you escaped my rampage because I wanted to kill you. It will be very tricky getting all of our supplies, explosives, weaponry, ammo, and then hiding it all and then actually planting it all so we can achieve our goal. But if we get busted any time, we start killing then and there, just like Wilks from the ALIENS books, I ain’t going out without a fight.
Psychopaths LOVE anticipating murder. Especially the spree-killers. They anticipate and imagine it for months and years and the payoff is huge. Serial killers are different. They get off more on murder than the anticipation of it. One of Eric's favorite past times, leading up the massacre, was telegraphing all his moves. Every single paper he wrote for English that year pertained to the massacre in some way, though you'd only know in hindsight. One was about Nazi culture, another was about The Brady Bill (which kept him from being able to buy guns) another was titled "When Murder is Justified," and still another about Euripedes' Medea, where he actually gets the theme "I ain't going down without a fight!" from. In retrospect, these papers literally haunted the teachers that read them, especially because they gave them good grades and expected nothing. Many sought out the aforementioned profiler to ask, "How did I miss this?"
Once I finally start my killing, keep this in mind, there are probably about 10 people max in the school alone who I don’t want to die, the rest, MUST FUCKING DIE! God I want to torch and level everything in this whole fucking area but bombs of that size are hard to make, and plus I would need a fuckin’ fully loaded A-10 to get every store on Wadsworth and all the buildings downtown. Heh, imagine THAT you fuckers, picture half of Denver on fire just from me and Vodka. [His nickname for Dylan] Napalm on sides of skyscrapers and car garages blowing up from exploded gas tanks…. oh man that would be beautiful.
Beautiful..? If you say so, Eric. If you say so. I'm telling you, I've never seen aspirations like this in a serial or spree murderer, and I’ve probably researched at least a hundred. There's some that come to mind, but never one so young. Look into Albert Fish if you want someone to haunt your dreams forever. I'd almost venture to say we're lucky, very lucky, Eric Harris was only able to take 13 lives.
You know what, I feel like telling about lies. I lie a lot. Almost constant, and to everybody, just to keep my own ass out of the water.
His bit about lying is incredibly telling of his pervasive psychopathy. I didn't include most of it here because it's long, and this post is getting out of control. But just know Eric was an expert at the craft of lying, especially to grown-ups.
All I want is a couple of guns, and thanks to your fucking bill I will probably not get any! Come on, I’ll have a clean record and I only want them for personal protection. It’s not like I’m some psycho who would go on a shooting spree... fuckers.
If I could nuke the world I would, because so far I hate you all. There are probably around 10 people I wouldn’t want to die, but hey, who ever said life is fair should be shot like the others, too.
As of this date I have enough explosives to kill about 100 people, and then if I get a couple bayonets, swords, axes, whatever I’ll be able to kill at least 10 more. And that just isn’t enough! Guns! I need guns! Give me some fucking firearms!
God... this one almost makes me cry. So evil. So twisted. Our gun laws are insane in this country. This one just makes so many emotions bubble out of me. Just, what a scary, dangerous individual he was. SO much damage was wrought in so many lives because this kid was able to get his hands on, not just guns, but a small armory.
If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable … but probably not.
This line in particular just screamed psychopath to me... This is a common trait in psychopathy, blaming the victim. "If that bitch just hadn't of looked at me that way / been standing there / tricked me, I wouldn't have had to kill her!"
I want to grab a few different girls in my gym class, take them into a room, pull their pants off and fuck them hard. I love flesh … the smooth legs, the large breasts, the innocent flawless body, the eyes, the hair, jet black, blond, white, brown, ahhh I just want to fuck! Call it teenager hormones or call it a crazy fuckin racist rapist. The one where the guy is kidnapped and tortured like hell … actual hell. I want to do that too. I want to tear a throat out with my own teeth like a pop can. I want to gut someone with my hand, to tear a head off and rip out the heart and lungs from the neck, to stab someone in the gut, shove it up to their heart, and yank the fucking blade out of their rib cage! I want to grab some weak little freshman and just tear them apart like a wolf, show them who is god. Strangle them, squish their head, bite their temples in the skull, rip off their jaw, rip off their collar bones, break their arms in half and twist them around, the lovely sounds of bones cracking and flesh ripping, ahhh … so much to do and so little chances.
This, to me, is the coup de grâce. An accounting of just how out-there and twisted Eric was. There is no doubt, literally no doubt in my mind, that this boy would have grown into one of the most sadistic serial killers this country had ever seen. And he was smart, which makes him so much more dangerous.
THIS is what I am motivated for, THIS is my goal. THIS is what I want “to do with my life.
Eric’s grades improved DRASTICALLY his last year of high school. And for one simple reason: because he finally knew what he "wanted to do with his life." Which just so happened to be killing a lot of children.
And I would never drink and drive, either. It will be weird when we actually go on the rampage. Hopefully we will have plenty of clips and bombs. I’m gonna still try and get my calico 9mm. Just think, 100 rounds without reloading…. hell yeah!
Only a logic loving psychopath could possible juxtapose "not drinking and driving" with how awesome "shooting 100 rounds at children without reloading" would be. Psychopaths are some of the most hypocritical individuals that have/will ever live. You won't drink and drive, but you'll open up on a group of civilians with a semi-automatic rifle? Honestly, I don't know what to make of that. I guess it's literally a joke.
The stereo is very nice, but having no insurance payments to worry about so I could concentrate of BOMBS would have been better.
This is a reference to Eric’s parents buying him a stereo. He laments they didn’t pay for his insurance instead, so he could spend his money on bombs. Oh, the classic teenage dilemma... insurance or propane bombs?
We test fired all of our babies, we have 6 time clocks ready, 39 crickets [small bombs] 24 pipe bombs, and the napalm is under construction.
Eric never finished his flame thrower, but he worked hard on it. Could you imagine if he had? When I say Columbine was homicidal art, I’m not speaking in hyperbole. Eric wanted to literally melt some children; he thought that would really get the audience going. He worked hard trying to perfect his napalm, but never quite got there.
Either bombs, clocks, guns, napalm, killing people, any and everything finds some tie to it. Feels like a goddamn movie sometimes. I wanna try to put some mines and trip bombs around this town too maybe. Get a few extra frags on the scoreboard.
Well, that concludes the excerpts. I don't really know what I'm hoping to accomplish with this. More than anything, it satiates my appetite to study and understand these monsters. Maybe in doing so, I’ve helped you understand them a little better as well. And also, be weary. They are out there, and I’m not even kidding. They are literally hunting people just like you and I as I type these words. Women especially.
I feel it important to express what the purpose of this thread is not: I do not want to debate what role bullying had in this, or ANY OTHER factors that might have led to its happening. That is not my goal. My goal is simply to explain that Eric was a very stereotypical psychopath—what made him this way is immaterial. I know I said earlier I was offering the “why,” and I am. But not the why as you imagine it. It happened because Eric was a psychopath. But what made him a psychopath? That, I can’t say. I personally believe bullying was a factor, his home life was a factor, Dylan was a factor, the school was a factor, religion was a factor, his constantly moving around during childhood was a factor, his need for fame, or infamy, was a factor, his hatred of the human race was a factor, his disbelief of moral imperatives was a factor. Regardless of what made him this way, the fact remains, he was this way. And that is the purpose of the thread. Not to debate WHY he was, but to discuss WHAT he was.
And lastly, the purpose is to remember. To remember all of the children that had their innocence stolen on that day. To remember the panic they must have felt as they literally ran for their lives, bullets flying, pipe bombs exploding, fires burning, friends they had known their whole lives dropping dead beside them, Eric and Dylan’s maniacal laughter cutting through it all. Do you know how one parent found out their child was dead? They saw it on the cover of the freaking newspaper the next morning. Their son, their precious little baby boy, splayed out on the concrete, bloody and shoeless. That’s how they found out. That’s how the news was delivered to them.
The worst happened in the library. Did you know that one round of buck-shot Eric fired struck four different people, all cowering under the same desk? One freaking bullet. Could you imagine a man shooting you and your three best friends with one bullet? He fixes his gaze on you, a loud explosion, and then suddenly all four of you are bleeding out, are dying in a heap. Could you imagine fixing a shotgun barrel on a group of FOUR CHILDREN and pulling the trigger? Because, while I can hardly fathom is, it nonetheless happened. It is not a story I made up, it is someone’s life, or at least a moment in it. Words cannot describe how truly unquantifiable such an act is, and how the reverberations stretch through all of time. You don't heal, you change. If you break your arm, you might learn to throw a baseball again—but you'll never throw it the same. Healing from trauma is much the same.
More than anything Columbine left me with a visceral sense of victimhood. The amount that was stolen from so many by so few on that day is truly unimaginable. I cannot even begin to imagine what those children and parents went through. But I can say I’ve had nightmares about it, about those pipe bombs raining down into my Cafeteria, and I and can honestly say I will never be the same, even though I wasn't there!
How must it seem to those that were?
What my goal for this thread is: To remember the victims, to celebrate their hardships and courage; to remind people that true evil exists, and regardless of how it is created, that it must be faced; and to encourage conversation on psychopathy and other good true-crime books! So what makes a psychopath? What does Columbine mean to you? Do you think you would have recovered quickly or slowly? Could you forgive them? Do you remember where you were when it happened? Because I sure do. But mostly, keep it respectful and on topic. Mods, please don’t let this thread devolve into a bullying flame fest.
Also, mods, if this is a "blog it" thread, just let me know. You can delete it and I'll repost it there. I have all of this saved on my computer. I just felt there was a discussion to be had, especially with the anniversary fast approaching.
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This is one of the most well-written pieces on the topic that I've seen. I agree with you 100%. I cannot imagine the fear and adrenalin that happened that day. It reminds me of the fear felt on 9/11 or any other homicidal thrill ride
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A boatload of interesting infos in there I haven't seen before. Thanks for putting this up.
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Interesting and well written. Never knew they had so many explosives.
One very minor nitpick: "The worst happened in the library. Did you know that one round of buck-shot Eric fired struck four different people, all cowering under the same desk? One freaking bullet."
Buckshot is not considered a bullet, it shoots a spray of pellets.
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Like others above already mentioned, quite an interesting and well-articulated topic and post.
With that said, and given that my knowledge in psychiatry and psychology is rather limited, don't you think that 'psychopath' might be a bit misused in this case? I am perhaps mistaken as you did not include the whole account of the kid's story, but since he actually cared for about 10 people or so (from what he says at least) he does not seem to qualify as amoral or incapable of experiencing feelings which are considered the essential symptoms of psychopathy.
However, like I said I could be mistaken if his statement that he did not wish to kill these 10 individuals was the result of rational calculations of cause and effect or whatnot and not a moral choice (that is assuming that morality is disparate from rationality as frameworks).
In any case, I do not think that my point has any serious effect on the overall value and interest of the initial post.
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Oh I remember arguing with you in the Ohio shooting thread. I now see where you are coming from, especially the whole part about the first media coverage being very likely to be completely false, as here the diary was published two years after.
Thank you for summarizing the Columbine events, and for posting the excerpts from Eric's diary. Is the full version available somewhere? Transcribed, preferably.
edit: nvm found it. http://acolumbinesite.com/eric/writing/journal/jindex.html
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Too tired to read this now, posting to remember to later, looks like a good read.
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Not to claim to be a fraction as knowledgeable as you seeme on the subject, but i think what disturbs me the most except for the insane descriptions here about more killers like this, is that they acknowledge that hardly anyone agrees with them, but still think they have the right to kill those who disagree. I have never found any real justification to this "entitlement" except that they think they are God or something.
But the point in the end that "true evil excists" i must disagree with. Isn't evil an extremely subjective thing. Didn't Hitler, Anders Bering Breivik and this person all think they were in fact not evil, but rather helping themselves or the world.
That is subjective evil, which can be said to be something else. But who have the right to define this "true evil"? You? Me? The majority. You could say as humans, we have the right to define any manmade words ourselves. But i think that the idea that we can give someone the power to put such a staple as "true evil" on people, just by having the power to define it, seems kind of wrong to me.
But this is of course not meant to defend the mindset of the person, or the actions that he did. If any of the last text should indicate so, then i am deeply sorry.
@Spekulatius: Thanks for the source for the transcript. I was gonna ask for it for a school paper im writing tonight (curse your seductionist powers, team liquid)
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it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow"
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On April 17 2012 06:23 ranshaked wrote:
This is one of the most well-written pieces on the topic that I've seen. I agree with you 100%. I cannot imagine the fear and adrenalin that happened that day. It reminds me of the fear felt on 9/11 or any other homicidal thrill ride
Thank you so much man. I'm an aspiring writer and reading things like this really makes me feel like I can make it out there. I was very worried no one would even read or comment on this thread, because it is so long. It is 5,000 words which is about... 1/4th of a novel, lol.
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On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow"
I mean, would you really call it "giving him credit?" You'll never meet anyone more pro-death penalty than me. I'd kill Eric Harris myself if he were still alive—be glad to do it. I'd build my own flamethrower just for him.
I don't respect him at all, not any murderer ever. Originally, I'm not going to lie, I was fascinated by the murderers. But quickly, the victims became much more interesting to me. It is unbelievable the damage these sick individuals wrought.
More than anything, I wanted everyone to finally see Eric Harris for what he was. He's kind of developed this mythic, sympathetic persona. I wanted to shatter that. He was a deplorable person of the highest order, literally not even human, in my opinion.
And I also agree about him not being nearly as smart as he lets on. Hell, all the editing of his shitty writing I had to do really tipped me off to that. All I was getting at is that he was above average intelligence, and since most murderers are pretty stupid, this gave him a real leg up on the competition. Don't confuse my thinking hes unique with my thinking he's something to be celebrated.
Edit: I have read the paper, and you're totally right. It's not very well written. I don't think he was some genius. Like I said, just slightly above average.
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You should do one on Seung-Hui Cho
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One of the most interesting post's I've ever read. I will read more into it when I have time, thank you for the time and effort you put into this.
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On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow"
Yeah he took the fist through the wall to another level for sure.... I totally agree, not much stress can lead you to mass murder, and if it leads you to mass murder at least pick people more relevant .... Not just random kids in a fucking school, go after crooked politicans, fucked up gangbangers or anyone just not innocent to through your life away over... Not innocent teens, even if some bully, teasing and picking on someone =/= death.
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I've only read 1/3 of it and I like it so far. I haven't really put much thought into the shooting seeing as it's quite distant for me but I really enjoy reading things like this.
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I honestly feel sorry for Eric and Dylan. I think it all comes down to social exclusion. People in high school are really rotten, and American culture puts this huge emphasis on who you are in high school. I don't condone their actions, but I understand what drove them to that point.
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I did a term paper on this subject exactly, extremely interesting in how disturbed those two motherfuckers were...
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Vey good read. Made me watch 2 documentaries. Im obssesed by this now thanks...
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On April 17 2012 07:12 EdaPoe wrote:
Like others above already mentioned, quite an interesting and well-articulated topic and post.
With that said, and given that my knowledge in psychiatry and psychology is rather limited, don't you think that 'psychopath' might be a bit misused in this case? I am perhaps mistaken as you did not include the whole account of the kid's story, but since he actually cared for about 10 people or so (from what he says at least) he does not seem to qualify as amoral or incapable of experiencing feelings which are considered the essential symptoms of psychopathy.
However, like I said I could be mistaken if his statement that he did not wish to kill these 10 individuals was the result of rational calculations of cause and effect or whatnot and not a moral choice (that is assuming that morality is disparate from rationality as frameworks).
In any case, I do not think that my point has any serious effect on the overall value and interest of the initial post.
I thought someone might bring this up. It is a common misconception that psychopaths have no emotion, one that I myself have perpetuated in this very thread. This isn't entirely true. They just have very shallow emotional responses.
I'll give you an example. Say one of the people Eric is talking about is a girl he likes. While you or I might genuinely hope this girl would survive, we would hope so because we would want her to continue living and enjoying her life, or we would hope so so her parents wouldn't be devastated. Eric would want this girl to survive because then maybe he could fuck her.
They only experience emotions when they have a vested stake in the matter, and even then they are very shallow. Basically, while they might emote, albeit vaguely, they never do so altruistically, like most humans do on a daily, almost minute to minute basis. They are only motivated to emote when someone’s death would directly affect their wellbeing in a literal rather than emotional way. Eric would probably be sad if his parents died, but not because he would miss them—rather because then he wouldn't have somewhere to live. Does that make sense? It's always a selfish emotion, which is why they lack empathy is so universally.
So while I do believe Eric did wish a few people might survive, he only wished they would because they were beneficial to him, not because he loved them, and not because he truly "cared."
Also, it should be noted, I'm no expert on psychology either. I haven't even taken any classes on it. All I know, I know from reading true-crime books by profilers, lawyers, psychologists and journalists. It's all just bits I’ve picked up along the way. Much of it could be wrong. Though I feel my grasp of the psychopathy specifically is pretty strong.
I'll give you another example I find really interesting. When a psychologist asked a psychopath what he would feel if "someone pointed a gun at him," the guy gave a few responses. He said, "Well, I'd try to turn the tables. Or I’d run. Or I’d take the gun and turn it on them." The doctor responded, "You just described how it would make you act, but how would it make you feel?" Obviously, the psychopath is perplexed. And it's even more interesting when you throw brain activity into the equation.
If you show a normal, feeling human a picture of a dead body, you will instantly see the emotional center of the brain light up. If you show a convicted serial killer and psychopath a picture of a dead body, you will instantly see the linguistic center of his brain light up. This is the best explanation I've ever heard for psychopathy. Psychopaths don't feel emotions, but they do understand and leverage them. They quantify them as words rather than feelings. They memorize what facial expressions go with what emotions, and they practice emitting them at just the right time. They are adept at knowing what they should be feeling, but they never actually feel it! Pretty crazy stuff, huh?
Also, this is why counceling almost never works. It makes them much better liars, and allows them to hone their ability to fake emotional response.
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On April 17 2012 08:57 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow" More than anything, I wanted everyone to finally see Eric Harris for what he was. He's kind of developed this mythic, sympathetic persona. I wanted to shatter that. He was a deplorable person of the highest order, literally not even human, in my opinion.
i have to say that i hated that myth too, but after reading this, i find it to be hilarious. hilarious in a really, really sad way.
this a-hole and his buddy, who are not unique in any way, shape or form, wanted to be known and feared.
what are they? they are pitied. people think of them like two little kids who were so bullied that they just couldn't take it anymore. if eric could have looked into the future and seen that, and to a certain extent i think he did, he would have been so effing pissed. half the reason he went through with it, in my opinion, is because he knew that no matter what his ass did, he would be remembered as some victim, in his mind a victim is a "pussy". he didn't want to be a victim, he wanted to be known as a brutal killer who loved every second of his rampage. it was all a part of his big lie.
thats why he wrote the journal, and thats why he tried to make the journal as over-the-top as possible. he wanted us to be afraid of his insanity, when really, he wasn't any more insane than any POS that does a myriad of crazy stupid crap and gets people killed. in fact, i've heard of people who haven't killed anyone that are more evil than him, by a long shot. people who don't waste their time writing journals or justifying themselves, who just do evil for the pure sake of doing evil and could care less how you or i feel about it.
columbine was a fucking horrible tragedy, but i take solace in the fact that those two idiots didn't get anything that they wanted, at all. may everyone involved rest in peace, and hopefully the families of the slain can find some peace too.
edit: also, i don't buy the whole "psychopaths don't feel emotions or empathy" idea. psychopaths are extremely deceptive, even to themselves. they don't like emotions, and they probably wish they didn't feel empathy, but i don't think they actually don't. i think they are faking it. sure they probably have some neurological issues, but i highly doubt that they don't understand very well what they are doing. i think most of the reason they do it is because they think they can get rid of unwanted emotions by doing so. kill a human to kill their own humanity, basically.
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On April 17 2012 09:19 Bourneq wrote:
Vey good read. Made me watch 2 documentaries. Im obssesed by this now thanks...
It's funny, Wikipedia actually has one of the most complete, minute to minute write ups on Columbine on the entire internet. Should definitely check it out. There's so many myths I didn't even scratch the surface of in this post.
Did you know the Jefferson Country PD had a search warrant for Eric's house a year before the massacre?
Did you know Brooks Brown's Mom (a boy who Eric made several death threats against) called the cops on Eric Harris 16 times leading up to the massacre? She was one of the only parents that saw through Eric's psychopathic charm. She was the reason the warrant was filed, but it was never carried out.
Did you know the police knew Eric was building pipe bombs?
Did you know the most written word in Dylan's journal was love?
Did you know Cassie Bernall was never asked if she believed in God?
All of this stuff is covered on the Wiki and in the book. I'd recommend both.
Also, you know I wrote the author an e-mail and he responded? I'll post it up if people want to read. He's a really cool guy, and he gave me some more info about the victims in the e-mail.
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On April 17 2012 09:30 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 08:57 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow" More than anything, I wanted everyone to finally see Eric Harris for what he was. He's kind of developed this mythic, sympathetic persona. I wanted to shatter that. He was a deplorable person of the highest order, literally not even human, in my opinion. i have to say that i hated that myth too, but after reading this, i find it to be hilarious. hilarious in a really, really sad way. this a-hole and his buddy, who are not unique in any way, shape or form, wanted to be known and feared. what are they? they are pitied. people think of them like two little kids who were so bullied that they just couldn't take it anymore. if eric could have looked into the future and seen that, and to a certain extent i think he did, he would have been so effing pissed. half the reason he went through with it, in my opinion, is because he knew that no matter what his ass did, he would be remembered as some victim, in his mind a victim is a "pussy". he didn't want to be a victim, he wanted to be known as a brutal killer who loved every second of his rampage. it was all a part of his big lie. thats why he wrote the journal, and thats why he tried to make the journal as over-the-top as possible. he wanted us to be afraid of his insanity, when really, he wasn't any more insane than any POS that does a myriad of crazy stupid crap and gets people killed. in fact, i've heard of people who haven't killed anyone that are more evil than him, by a long shot. people who don't waste their time writing journals or justifying themselves, who just do evil for the pure sake of doing evil and could care less how you or i feel about it. columbine was a fucking horrible tragedy, but i take solace in the fact that those two idiots didn't get anything that they wanted, at all. may everyone involved rest in peace, and hopefully the families of the slain can find some peace too. edit: also, i don't buy the whole "psychopaths don't feel emotions or empathy" idea. psychopaths are extremely deceptive, even to themselves. they don't like emotions, and they probably wish they didn't feel empathy, but i don't think they actually don't. i think they are faking it. sure they probably have some neurological issues, but i highly doubt that they don't understand very well what they are doing. i think most of the reason they do it is because they think they can get rid of unwanted emotions by doing so. kill a human to kill their own humanity, basically.
Dude! This post is so spot on!
Eric's journal just REEKS of trying to scare people. That ties into the whole "audience" theme to me. I think it speaks to his immaturity. You can tell as he wrote it, he knew eventually someone would read it, and for that reason he went to great lengths to make it sadistic.
Oh God, Eric would be SO ANGRY if he knew about everyone thinking he was the victim. You're so right there. That would literally make him unbelievably pissed. I'm glad they didn't get what they wanted too... though I didn't even realize that until just now.
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I really love this stuff, thanks for the read, will probably spend the rest of the night reading wikipedia and whatnot on the topic. I appreciate how you demonstrated the similarities between us 'normal' folk and these two.. and how, contrary to how most probably think, he was so set in his goals that therapy or anything of the sort wouldn't have deterred him. And you're right, we are very lucky he fucked up so bad that day
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On April 17 2012 09:33 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 09:19 Bourneq wrote:
Vey good read. Made me watch 2 documentaries. Im obssesed by this now thanks... It's funny, Wikipedia actually has one of the most complete, minute to minute write ups on Columbine on the entire internet. Should definitely check it out. There's so many myths I didn't even scratch the surface of in this post. Did you know the Jefferson Country PD had a search warrant for Eric's house a year before the massacre? Did you know Brooks Brown's Mom (a boy who Eric made several death threats against) called the cops on Eric Harris 16 times leading up to the massacre? She was one of the only parents that saw through Eric's psychopathic charm. She was the reason the warrant was filed, but it was never carried out. Did you know the police knew Eric was building pipe bombs? Did you know the most written word in Dylan's journal was love? Did you know Cassie Bernall was never asked if she believed in God? All of this stuff is covered on the Wiki and in the book. I'd recommend both. Also, you know I wrote the author an e-mail and he responded? I'll post it up if people want to read. He's a really cool guy, and he gave me some more info about the victims in the e-mail.
Knew a few of thoose due to the documentaires. Id love the email! Post it here or pm it to me and id be very gratefull. Also I will be so obssesed with seeing the basement tapes. Damn FBI thinking they can whithold information. Altho I can see why they would keep it out of the public. But common, if Time magazine could watch it I sure as hell can.
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I believe Eric was exactly what he claimed to be... his favorite movie… a Natural Born Killer.
Have to disagree with your analysis here. Eric's the exact opposite of a "natural born killer".
When I think of a natural born killer, I think of Richard Kuklinski, better known as the iceman. A hitmen and serial killer whos killer count is of literally legendary proportions. High estimates put it at over 250, the low ones at over 100.
That guy, well, he was a real killer. Someone looked at him the wrong way, they'd end up in a landfill somewhere. The guy kept this up for forty fucking years, with a family on top of it. That's a real pro. And you know what? He strikes me as a true as blue sociopath.
Watch some of his interview tapes. You know what he feels when he murders? Nothing. Not pride or pleasure, simply the satisfaction of a job well done, the same thing I'd feel after working out or finishing a particularily impressive piece of code. Its business. He killed a guy by taping him to a cave and having rats gnaw him to death at the request of a mafia boss. You know what he got from it? Nothing. But some cold, hard cash.
It basically contrasts in every way from what Eric and his pal did. From his skill at it, to the pleasure he took, to his instincts of self preservation. Something Kuklinski had hardwired, and Eric lacked altoghether.
Eric strikes me as rageful narcissist. A completely different breed of guy, and far less...impressive imo  . Kinda pathetic. The difference? A man who had power and thought nothing of the consequences of its excercise, versus a dumb kid who desperately craved to taste power regardless of the cost.
Basically, this guys got it more or less.
+ Show Spoiler +
i have to say that i hated that myth too, but after reading this, i find it to be hilarious. hilarious in a really, really sad way.
this a-hole and his buddy, who are not unique in any way, shape or form, wanted to be known and feared.
what are they? they are pitied. people think of them like two little kids who were so bullied that they just couldn't take it anymore. if eric could have looked into the future and seen that, and to a certain extent i think he did, he would have been so effing pissed. half the reason he went through with it, in my opinion, is because he knew that no matter what his ass did, he would be remembered as some victim, in his mind a victim is a "pussy". he didn't want to be a victim, he wanted to be known as a brutal killer who loved every second of his rampage. it was all a part of his big lie.
thats why he wrote the journal, and thats why he tried to make the journal as over-the-top as possible. he wanted us to be afraid of his insanity, when really, he wasn't any more insane than any POS that does a myriad of crazy stupid crap and gets people killed. in fact, i've heard of people who haven't killed anyone that are more evil than him, by a long shot. people who don't waste their time writing journals or justifying themselves, who just do evil for the pure sake of doing evil and could care less how you or i feel about it.
columbine was a fucking horrible tragedy, but i take solace in the fact that those two idiots didn't get anything that they wanted, at all. may everyone involved rest in peace, and hopefully the families of the slain can find some peace too.
edit: also, i don't buy the whole "psychopaths don't feel emotions or empathy" idea. psychopaths are extremely deceptive, even to themselves. they don't like emotions, and they probably wish they didn't feel empathy, but i don't think they actually don't. i think they are faking it. sure they probably have some neurological issues, but i highly doubt that they don't understand very well what they are doing. i think most of the reason they do it is because they think they can get rid of unwanted emotions by doing so. kill a human to kill their own humanity, basically.
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konadora i didn't get you fired, take this thread down and apologize. this isn't an issue that should be trolled.
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i think it's kind of self-explanatory why you don't have a job any more
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On April 17 2012 09:51 Bourneq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 09:33 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 09:19 Bourneq wrote:
Vey good read. Made me watch 2 documentaries. Im obssesed by this now thanks... It's funny, Wikipedia actually has one of the most complete, minute to minute write ups on Columbine on the entire internet. Should definitely check it out. There's so many myths I didn't even scratch the surface of in this post. Did you know the Jefferson Country PD had a search warrant for Eric's house a year before the massacre? Did you know Brooks Brown's Mom (a boy who Eric made several death threats against) called the cops on Eric Harris 16 times leading up to the massacre? She was one of the only parents that saw through Eric's psychopathic charm. She was the reason the warrant was filed, but it was never carried out. Did you know the police knew Eric was building pipe bombs? Did you know the most written word in Dylan's journal was love? Did you know Cassie Bernall was never asked if she believed in God? All of this stuff is covered on the Wiki and in the book. I'd recommend both. Also, you know I wrote the author an e-mail and he responded? I'll post it up if people want to read. He's a really cool guy, and he gave me some more info about the victims in the e-mail. Knew a few of thoose due to the documentaires. Id love the email! Post it here or pm it to me and id be very gratefull. Also I will be so obssesed with seeing the basement tapes. Damn FBI thinking they can whithold information. Altho I can see why they would keep it out of the public. But common, if Time magazine could watch it I sure as hell can.
Dear Mr. Cullen,
I apologize that this is so long.
I just wanted to thank you for creating such an amazing, touching, thoroughly researched work. It is one of the best books I have ever read, and I can honestly say I have never felt the yearning to write an author after finishing his work. If it were not for you, it is very likely that the true context of this tragedy would have been forever lost—at least on the public. To call 'Columbine' simply revelatory would be a disservice, for it is an absolute triumph. With each page, I found myself ever more baffled by just how little I actually knew about what took place that day.
From the failed bombing (which, like nearly every other nuance that sets your story apart, was severely under-reported in the national media) to the true story of Cassie Burnall and resultant strife placed upon Val, to the harrowing tale of Dave Sanders, to the cover-ups and the cover-ups of the cover ups! I just couldn't put it down. And this was all a few months ago, when I first bought it.
I have since read it a second time, in one sitting, and done further research. The more I learn about it, the more I want to learn about it! It is an endless cycle. I feel so consumed by it and the deeper I dig, the more I shutter when trying to imagine the true scope of the horror. It is like my heart cannot take it; I cannot weep enough for these people. I just keep thinking, 'If it is like this for me, what was it like for them?'
Are they okay? I know that's a stupid question, but I have to believe some of them are. That they aren't still carrying the heavy burden of this tragedy around their neck with them everywhere they go. I wanted to know about Lance, how successful was his recovery, if you can say? God, I just want to give them a hug, to make it okay for them. How could someone do such a thing? I know that sounds terribly cliché, but I just feel a weight on my shoulders to help these people. I'm sure that's how everyone feels, but I just needed some sort of outlet to express it, and I figured writing you would be a start.
I especially agreed with your diagnosis of Eric, and totally enjoyed your ability to assess the two boys as separate individuals, with different outlooks and motives, instead of one single entity, as most would be tempted to portray them.
Your youtube tutorials are also entertaining as well as very helpful. I have also written a fiction book that culminates with a school shooting. However, I am very concerned that no one will want anything to do with it, for no better reason than the taboo subject. Do you have any idea if the industry is open to assessing a school shooting from a fictional stand point? Do you personally know of any books that do this?
In closing, you and your work are a great inspiration to me, and you have even set in motion inside of me a desire to compose a work of non-fiction some day. Maybe even in my later years, even pursue a career in Criminal Psychology or Trauma Counseling. I am only 21.
Anyway, I know you probably don't have time to respond to this, or any of my questions specifically, and I obviously won't hold it against you. Writing is a time a work of endless deadlines. Regardless, you are one of my favorite new authors of recent years; I wish you only the best in life and work, and eagerly await your next project.
Sincerely,
Kellen Rust
I think it's funny because you can totally see in this e-mail how my focus shifted from the murderers to the victims. I bought Columbine thinking I was interested in Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold. I finished it being interested in all the children that were left behind. And I never looked at true crime the same again. To me, now, it's only about the victims.
And, his response, albeit short:
Thanks very much for that Kellen.
As for how they are doing, that's highly individual. I would say the majority of the students got past it about 5-8 years out, but some are still struggling. The parents of the kids killed are, as a rule, doing worse. I'm sorry but I did not cover all the victims or get to know them, and I can't tell you a lot about Lance. I think if you google him, a lot of other journos have, and have written about him.
There have been fictionalized accounts from Wally Lamb and Jodi (Picoult?) which did very well, and several others. I have no idea how receptive editors are to more books like that. An agent or editor would be a better source to ask. I live in Denver and don't talk to industry people all the time, and have never asked about that.
Good luck with it.
d
The response really meant a lot to me. Thought it was pretty cool of him. Granted, I was sucking that d pretty hard. But I just freaking loved that book. I'd write the same e-mail to Capote about In Cold Blood in a heart beat.
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On April 17 2012 09:57 Half wrote:Show nested quote +I believe Eric was exactly what he claimed to be... his favorite movie… a Natural Born Killer. Have to disagree with your analysis here. Eric's the exact opposite of a "natural born killer". When I think of a natural born killer, I think of Richard Kuklinski, better known as the iceman. A hitmen and serial killer whos killer count is of literally legendary proportions. High estimates put it at over 250, the low ones at over 100. That guy, well, he was a real killer. Someone looked at him the wrong way, they'd end up in a landfill somewhere. The guy kept this up for forty fucking years, with a family on top of it. That's a real pro. And you know what? He strikes me as a true as blue sociopath. Watch some of his interview tapes. You know what he feels when he murders? Nothing. Not pride or pleasure, simply the satisfaction of a job well done, the same thing I'd feel after working out or finishing a particularily impressive piece of code. Its business. He killed a guy by taping him to a cave and having rats gnaw him to death at the request of a mafia boss. You know what he got from it? Nothing. But some cold, hard cash. It basically contrasts in every way from what Eric and his pal did. From his skill at it, to the pleasure he took, to his instincts of self preservation. Something Kuklinski had hardwired, and Eric lacked altoghether. Eric strikes me as rageful narcissist. A completely different breed of guy, and far less...impressive imo . Kinda pathetic. The difference? A man who had power and thought nothing of the consequences of its excercise, versus a dumb kid who desperately craved to taste power regardless of the cost. Basically, this guys got it more or less. + Show Spoiler +
i have to say that i hated that myth too, but after reading this, i find it to be hilarious. hilarious in a really, really sad way.
this a-hole and his buddy, who are not unique in any way, shape or form, wanted to be known and feared.
what are they? they are pitied. people think of them like two little kids who were so bullied that they just couldn't take it anymore. if eric could have looked into the future and seen that, and to a certain extent i think he did, he would have been so effing pissed. half the reason he went through with it, in my opinion, is because he knew that no matter what his ass did, he would be remembered as some victim, in his mind a victim is a "pussy". he didn't want to be a victim, he wanted to be known as a brutal killer who loved every second of his rampage. it was all a part of his big lie.
thats why he wrote the journal, and thats why he tried to make the journal as over-the-top as possible. he wanted us to be afraid of his insanity, when really, he wasn't any more insane than any POS that does a myriad of crazy stupid crap and gets people killed. in fact, i've heard of people who haven't killed anyone that are more evil than him, by a long shot. people who don't waste their time writing journals or justifying themselves, who just do evil for the pure sake of doing evil and could care less how you or i feel about it.
columbine was a fucking horrible tragedy, but i take solace in the fact that those two idiots didn't get anything that they wanted, at all. may everyone involved rest in peace, and hopefully the families of the slain can find some peace too.
edit: also, i don't buy the whole "psychopaths don't feel emotions or empathy" idea. psychopaths are extremely deceptive, even to themselves. they don't like emotions, and they probably wish they didn't feel empathy, but i don't think they actually don't. i think they are faking it. sure they probably have some neurological issues, but i highly doubt that they don't understand very well what they are doing. i think most of the reason they do it is because they think they can get rid of unwanted emotions by doing so. kill a human to kill their own humanity, basically.
I know my serial-murderers, buddy. Richard Kuklinski and Roy DeMeo were literally murder-machines. (No shit, the book about Roy DeMeo is called Murder Machine.) I think you're kind of missing the point though. Eric was 18. He never had a chance to developed and hone his craft. Granted, it would be hard to top Kuklinski. Did you not notice I used a Kuklinski-ism in the post? The story of the guy getting cut off, whipping out a pistol, and shooting 3 guys dead is from The Ice Man. Why I said Eric was a natural born killer was not because he was good at killing, it was because I feel he was genetically predisposed to it. Compared to Kuklinski, he had a very good home life. He had none of the typical factors that create a serial killer. Thus, I think it was more nature, rather than nurture. Kuklinski was made to be the killer he was through extreme bullying, and most serial killers are.
I would never compare Eric Harris to Kuklinski or DeMeo. But, on a long enough time line, I think he could have been a lot like them. They were unique as well in that they were hit-men, not serial killers. Kuklinski was a business man.
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that.
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Yeah I really enjoyed this analysis and the write up. It is interesting. I wonder how many people are thinking these thoughts right now. To echo what other people said, I take solace in the fact that these whiny teenage morons only killed a dozen people rather than the entire school, although that does not take away from the tragedy of the event.
Sometimes I wonder if I could kill, I think we all get dark thoughts once in a while, especially when we are stressed out. I like to ponder the thoughts of serial killers and murderers because it reminds me how different I am from them, might be weird but there it is, it makes me feel better about myself.
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His decision that nihilism necessitates murder is an utter fallacy. Life is meaningless, therefore no one deserves to life. If everything is meaningless, why should murder be the answer? Eric is an idiot. He calls himself intelligent and refuses to justify his conclusions, hiding behind "I'm smarter than you" and denying other answers as "dumb."
Fuck you, Eric. Rot.
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On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that.
Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy.
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This is so beautifully informative I don't know what to say. Maybe I shouldn't know what to say about the content.
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On April 17 2012 10:00 Failsafe wrote:
konadora i didn't get you fired, take this thread down and apologize. this isn't an issue that should be trolled.
wut
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On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow"
I was surprised about this too.The OP attempts to sound as misanthropic as possible saying he hates the human race and gives Harris lots of credit about his image, that Harris does not deserve. It does not take a genius to see the kid was an obvious psychopath, but his image being kept up and him seeing it coming is bullshit. A 13 year old could see how the media will portray such a thing, thats not impressive. Also Harris doesn't seem overly smart, he seems normal, an angsty teen that dips hard into the Nazi counter culture and MODELS his own thoughts after Hitler, not the other way around, he wasn't naturally that way. Also he just sounds like a kid who has a shit ton of angst and is too much of a huge bitch to do anything productive about it. I refuse to believe that this kid was in any way smart, in fact he just had a bad child hood, was a brat because of that upbringing (once again nurture, not nature) and since he was deprived of such a good childhood, he fell victim to the traps that this psychological issues caused. Seriously though giving this kid any kind of credit would be a huge over simplification and a huge misgiving of real credit.
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in my opinion its not very hard to understand why peoples minds get "fucked up" when they live in this worst case scenario of humanity.
looking at them as psychopaths or monsters is facile and wont help to understand them. they are humans just like us. ppl are formed by their environment. if you wanna understand em you gotta understand the world they live in first.
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Epic wall of post, but I dove all into it and it was worth the read. Thank you.
Definitely one of the saddest days in US history. I really think we should seriously consider our gun policies.
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On April 17 2012 11:23 naVaz wrote:
in my opinion its not very hard to understand why peoples minds get "fucked up" when they live in this worst case scenario of humanity.
Pretty sure being bullied in an American High School is not a worst case scenario of humanity. See: people living in slums in Brazil, India, Africa...child armies, sex slavery, etc.
looking at them as psychopaths or monsters is facile and wont help to understand them. they are humans just like us. ppl are formed by their environment. if you wanna understand em you gotta understand the world they live in first.
Hmm, I'm not sure people draw their entire personality from their environment. I'm sure there are plenty of killers or violent people who have grown up with a good family life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs)
Also I remember one daughter from a well-off family we knew who was basically completely malicious and violent by the age of 6, attacking school mates, mutilating small animals, attacking pets, threatening people with death, basically acting like the girl from the exorcist. I always thought that she is a good example of someone just born to be vicious and violent, she had a proverbial 'screw loose'. Our next door neighbour's son when I was young was kind of like that too, he just wanted to scare and hurt people all the time, although I'm pretty sure his life was a bit more complicated than the previous girl I mentioned.
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On April 17 2012 11:22 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow" I was surprised about this too.The OP attempts to sound as misanthropic as possible saying he hates the human race and gives Harris lots of credit about his image, that Harris does not deserve. It does not take a genius to see the kid was an obvious psychopath, but his image being kept up and him seeing it coming is bullshit. A 13 year old could see how the media will portray such a thing, thats not impressive. Also Harris doesn't seem overly smart, he seems normal, an angsty teen that dips hard into the Nazi counter culture and MODELS his own thoughts after Hitler, not the other way around, he wasn't naturally that way. Also he just sounds like a kid who has a shit ton of angst and is too much of a huge bitch to do anything productive about it. I refuse to believe that this kid was in any way smart, in fact he just had a bad child hood, was a brat because of that upbringing (once again nurture, not nature) and since he was deprived of such a good childhood, he fell victim to the traps that this psychological issues caused. Seriously though giving this kid any kind of credit would be a huge over simplification and a huge misgiving of real credit.
Let me start by saying I made some edits to my post. I in no way want people to think I identify with this monster, or glorify how "smart" he was. That is in no way the goal! I said I hated the human race; I was just being facetious. I mean, we're destroying the planet and it's freaking horrible, that's all I was getting at. I'm not some tree huger, and clearly I'm too lazy to fight for it, but you don't have to look very far to see we're going to burn this planet up, easily, in the next 100 years. And it makes me sad and, yes, nihilistic. I got a lot of Kurt Vonnegut in me.
That being said, I will defend myself and my views in a respectable manner.
To say "it doesn't take a genius to see he was a psychopath is" kind of a half-truth. Obviously, when presented with all the information, it is VERY obvious he is a psychopath. Sadly, most people weren't. And by the time the facts became available, people lost interest. The purpose of this thread was to teach people that didn't already know. Like I said before, a lot of people see Dylan and Eric as sympathetic characters--or they at least don't know all the facts about the case, which will help them form a better opinion on if he was or was not. I think when you read his writing, you get a visceral feel for just how much you SHOULDN'T feel sorry for him. And even then calling him a psychopath is not so cut and dry. Many psychologists are very hesitant to slap the label of "psychopath" on someone so young. The profiler was almost nervous when he gave his presentation on it. It's almost taboo, in a way. Most school shooters, and children in general, are NOT psychopaths. I can't stress this enough. It's what makes this case so unique in all my readings.
Also, when did I ever say Hitler models his thoughts after Eric? Of course Eric was modeling his thoughts after Hitler. That's kind of what I was pointing out, actually...
Finally, the part I have the most problem with. In no way do I want people to think I am glorifying him. I am so hesitant to even type this and defend myself, suffice to say it is the truth and so I will share it for only that reason. While Eric was nothing close to a genius, saying he was of "normal teen intelligence" is silly. I didn't read much in high school, and I still considered myself an intellectual. I definitely didn't read Shakespeare, unless I had to for school. I didn't read many books, and most high school kids don't, unless they have to. (and then who doesn't use spark notes?) Most of what I know about how smart (or not smart) Eric Harris was comes from the book, from what his friends/counselors/teachers said about him. They all said he was smart, quiet, articulate and charming. He would have to be relatively crafty to hide a year’s worth of weapons and ammunition collection and constant bomb building. I think a lot of people "blame the parents" because they don't understand how crafty and deceptive he/psychopaths are. That's all I was trying to point out, for people that didn't know. I wasn't trying to tout him as some great philosopher or intellectual.
I hate the medias obsession with body count. I hate how I feel like people literally view it as a competition. I can even say I was guilty of it at one point, but once you realize each number is actually a lost human life, often a childs... it just makes the thought of it being a competition despicable. That being said, I still feel the need to articulate this next point. I just didn't want anyone accusing me of being "that guy."
I think you fail to fully grasp the implications of just how horrible this would had been had it gone to plan. Literally 1,000 children/people could have died that day. That's a high estimate, but it's not out of the question. It would have probably been worse than the Beslan School bombing in Russia. Instead of hearing Timothy McVeigh every time someone mentioned the worst domestic terror attack, you would hear Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold. Think about that for a second. I honestly think had it all gone to plan, they would be viewed more as terrorists than school shooters. I think this sort of supports my assertion that he was above average intelligence. He dreamed fairly big for an 18 year old, I think that's undisputable. I stand by my assertions that he was one of the most sadistic minds, certainly, of my generation. And had it all gone to plan, all of you would too.
Also, I think it's really silly you would say he had a "bad childhood." I mean, while that is relative, have you read about, I don't know... other murderers? Do you know what makes a monster? I can tell you what it usually is, and what it usually is not. It usually is: A severely physically and emotionally abusive parent or parents; a total lack of self-esteem through childhood; I fascination with animal abuse or cruelty; severe emotional problems or "awkwardness" resulting in isolation; drugs or alcohol being abused in the house; sexual abuse; the presence of an older, influential psychopath.
It usually is not: someone that was raised by responsible parents on several military bases, and in the Colorado suburbs; someone who had dependable role models; someone who wasn't physically abused; someone that was never observed harming animals; someone that attended a respectable high school in middle-America.
To not be fascinated by just how and why Eric Harris is a psychopath would be silly. It literally, in my opinion, defies explanation. The things you described, normal teen angst, rarely cause a killer of the proportions Eric attempted. Yeah, that might make a kid fire off a few rounds at random into a sea of classmates. But Eric didn't do that. He tried to kill everyone.
Lastly, literally this whole thread was brought on by my hatred of people wanting to always chalk school shootings up to bullying or "bad parents" or any one thing. That's not to say it doesn't cause them, it does! Bullying played a factor at Columbine. But only one factor! And there are a lot of factors! That's what you have to keep in mind. It's never just one thing, trying to think about it like that will literally never yield a good answer. It's usually the perfect storm of things.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. I love to write and saw an oppurtunity to explain more on the subject. Not an attack in the least.
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On April 17 2012 10:36 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that. Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy.
Oh yes I remember when I saw that documentary... I was literally inconsolable. The part where they let him go, knowing he's killed over 300 children, my brain just couldn't take it... Yeah, I should have put him on that list. At the very freaking top. The Monster of the fucking Andes. God what I could do with 10 minutes alone with that guy.
I despise child killers with such a unique, burning hatred. I mean it's bad enough you've got to kill people. Can't you at least pick on someone your own size? You have to pick on a fucking seven year old? And a girl at that? You're that much of a spineless bitch?
God, a high-caliber rifle and a clear sky--ten minutes. All I would need to solve that little problem.
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After reading this, I spent about three hours reading Wikipedia articles about serial killers and now won't be able to sleep, so... thanks for that, I guess.
I guess this is semi off-topic but seriously, what the fuck is wrong with Colombia? The top three on the list of most murders by one serial killer are all from Colombia, and apparently their justice system is absolutely terrible at actually keeping those people in prison. Can anyone explain why Colombia (and Ecuador, and Brazil) don't imprison for life?
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On April 17 2012 15:24 corpuscle wrote:
After reading this, I spent about three hours reading Wikipedia articles about serial killers and now won't be able to sleep, so... thanks for that, I guess.
I guess this is semi off-topic but seriously, what the fuck is wrong with Colombia? The top three on the list of most murders by one serial killer are all from Colombia, and apparently their justice system is absolutely terrible at actually keeping those people in prison. Can anyone explain why Colombia (and Ecuador, and Brazil) don't imprison for life?
Lol. It's really funny, because I know, without even going there, exactly what article on Wikipedia you are talking about. It's the one that ranks them by body count, isn't it? I remember being stunned by that article too. And that's one serial killer question I don't have an answer to.
I'm sure someone from one of the three countries will eventually post and enlighten us.
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On April 17 2012 14:57 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 10:36 sc4k wrote:On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that. Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy. Oh yes I remember when I saw that documentary... I was literally inconsolable. The part where they let him go, knowing he's killed over 300 children, my brain just couldn't take it... Yeah, I should have put him on that list. At the very freaking top. The Monster of the fucking Andes. God what I could do with 10 minutes alone with that guy. I despise child killers with such a unique, burning hatred. I mean it's bad enough you've got to kill people. Can't you at least pick on someone your own size? You have to pick on a fucking seven year old? And a girl at that? You're that much of a spineless bitch? God, a high-caliber rifle and a clear sky--ten minutes. All I would need to solve that little problem.
I enjoy reading about serial killers too. But I think your mentality of "oh god what I would do if i had 10 minutes with him" and "god a high caliber rifle and a clear sky, ten minutes" is pretty damn disgusting in itself.
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On April 18 2012 05:24 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 14:57 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 10:36 sc4k wrote:On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that. Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy. Oh yes I remember when I saw that documentary... I was literally inconsolable. The part where they let him go, knowing he's killed over 300 children, my brain just couldn't take it... Yeah, I should have put him on that list. At the very freaking top. The Monster of the fucking Andes. God what I could do with 10 minutes alone with that guy. I despise child killers with such a unique, burning hatred. I mean it's bad enough you've got to kill people. Can't you at least pick on someone your own size? You have to pick on a fucking seven year old? And a girl at that? You're that much of a spineless bitch? God, a high-caliber rifle and a clear sky--ten minutes. All I would need to solve that little problem. I enjoy reading about serial killers too. But I think your mentality of "oh god what I would do if i had 10 minutes with him" and "god a high caliber rifle and a clear sky, ten minutes" is pretty damn disgusting in itself.
I'm aware that's how most people feel. I know there is evil in the world, and I feel it is my responsibility as a free man to confront it. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. I don't want to argue about capital punishment. It's cyclical and unending. Suffice to say, I think capital punishment should only be an option for multiple murderers (more than 10) and serial killers, and only in the face of overwhelming evidence. We, especially here in Texas, hand it out a little too willy-nilly. But some people deserve to die and you'll never change my mind on that, so don't bother trying.
I think the idea that there is no amount lives a man can take to be deserving of his own being taken is silly.
More than anything, it frustrates me how hard these bastard, murdering, psychopathic fucks fight for THEIR lives. That right there tells me we need to keep killing them off. If it means that much to them, good, all the better reason to take it. These monsters need a taste of their own medicine because they literally don't understand anything else. But no, they're granted appeal after appeal after appeal. I bet all the innocence fucking children they murdered would like an appeal.
I'm only expressing my opinion. Yeah, it would be disgusting to shoot an innocent person. But someone that's murdered 300 CHILDREN? I could think of no better use for a bullet, ever.
As a matter of fact, do a little math with me here. 300 children... lets assume half of them have two parents, and half of them have at least one parent and one grand parent. Lets also assume all of them have a least two close friends. So that's about 1,200 lives this one, single individual ruined. And I don't think you fully comprehend just how "ruined" these parents/grandparents lives are. They literally never recover, ever, no matter what. You can't offer them the tiny solace of knowing that the monster that did it is dead? Well, that's your problem. I'd serve that tiny little comfort up to them in a heartbeat.
I just realized I said I wouldn't argue about it, and then I argued about it. Sorry. Not trying to start a flame war. You can just tell it hits... really close to my heart. I honestly used to be totally indifferent towards the death penalty. Not for or against it. And then I read all these stories and... there was just no going back. I didn't know there were so many horrible humans so deserving of death. I've read so much about all the damage these monsters have done and it just hurts my soul that no one's dishing it back at them. I mean, we need a Dexter out there. We need someone hunting the hunters. Instead they run wild and free and prey upon women and children literally at will--ruining thousands of lives along the way. As I type these words, there is an abducted woman somewhere, being raped and tortured and burned and hung and strangled and taunted and spit on and finally killed, all so one of these sick fucks can get off. I know. I’ve read the stories. In their own words. I read about one guy that would kidnap little girls and torture them for MONTHS. They would beg to die literally every day. And you know what he’d tell them, the whole time? That he was going to eat them. That their asses would taste nice. So, that’s the last thing these little girls got to see, got to hear. “I am going to eat you.” And he did. He ate them. All seven of them. Oh, and you know how he'd finally kill them? He'd stick an icepick in between their second and third fucking rib, right into their heart, and they would slowly bleed out internally. They would bleed out of their eyes and ears and nose and mouth, and it takes literally hours to die like this. And he would just taunt them the whole time. "Accept that you are going to die," is what he repeated to them.
Typing that makes tears whell in my eyes, and I'm not even fucking with you. It makes my jaw muscles pull taught. That's someones baby girl. And that's how she died. Her parents are going to carry that burden to the grave.
There is a monster, as I type these words, visiting the most unspeakable horrors on some tied up little girl. And it makes my fucking blood boil. I literally need them to know that I would kill them back. I know that seems silly, doesn't make any sense but... it's just very personal to me.
My solutions might not be the best, but at least I fucking care. More than I can say for most the apathetic people in this country. You can tell it's the child-killers that really get me going. I just... can't take it.
I think The Dude said it best: "This aggression will not stand... man."
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Nice read. I wore black the entire week of the anniversary.
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I really don't care what they were thinking at the time or prior to. I just remember how the school system changed in Colorado after that, having lived close to Columbine. The increased security, the growing amount of helicopter parents, the gains in power of the school boards. If anything these two made my life harder and more obnoxious while in school. I feel nothing but sadness for those they claimed, and apathy toward who they were as people. Boil it down, they were horrible, awful, people, and I'm glad that they are no longer here to subvert and hurt our society.
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On April 18 2012 07:34 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 05:24 PanN wrote:On April 17 2012 14:57 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 10:36 sc4k wrote:On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that. Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy. Oh yes I remember when I saw that documentary... I was literally inconsolable. The part where they let him go, knowing he's killed over 300 children, my brain just couldn't take it... Yeah, I should have put him on that list. At the very freaking top. The Monster of the fucking Andes. God what I could do with 10 minutes alone with that guy. I despise child killers with such a unique, burning hatred. I mean it's bad enough you've got to kill people. Can't you at least pick on someone your own size? You have to pick on a fucking seven year old? And a girl at that? You're that much of a spineless bitch? God, a high-caliber rifle and a clear sky--ten minutes. All I would need to solve that little problem. I enjoy reading about serial killers too. But I think your mentality of "oh god what I would do if i had 10 minutes with him" and "god a high caliber rifle and a clear sky, ten minutes" is pretty damn disgusting in itself. I'm aware that's how most people feel. I know there is evil in the world, and I feel it is my responsibility as a free man to confront it. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. I don't want to argue about capital punishment. It's cyclical and unending. Suffice to say, I think capital punishment should only be an option for multiple murderers (more than 10) and serial killers, and only in the face of overwhelming evidence. We, especially here in Texas, hand it out a little too willy-nilly. But some people deserve to die and you'll never change my mind on that, so don't bother trying. I think the idea that there is no amount lives a man can take to be deserving of his own being taken is silly. More than anything, it frustrates me how hard these bastard, murdering, psychopathic fucks fight for THEIR lives. That right there tells me we need to keep killing them off. If it means that much to them, good, all the better reason to take it. These monsters need a taste of their own medicine because they literally don't understand anything else. But no, they're granted appeal after appeal after appeal. I bet all the innocence fucking children they murdered would like an appeal. I'm only expressing my opinion. Yeah, it would be disgusting to shoot an innocent person. But someone that's murdered 300 CHILDREN? I could think of no better use for a bullet, ever. As a matter of fact, do a little math with me here. 300 children... lets assume half of them have two parents, and half of them have at least one parent and one grand parent. Lets also assume all of them have a least two close friends. So that's about 1,200 lives this one, single individual ruined. And I don't think you fully comprehend just how "ruined" these parents/grandparents lives are. They literally never recover, ever, no matter what. You can't offer them the tiny solace of knowing that the monster that did it is dead? Well, that's your problem. I'd serve that tiny little comfort up to them in a heartbeat. I just realized I said I wouldn't argue about it, and then I argued about it. Sorry. Not trying to start a flame war. You can just tell it hits... really close to my heart. I honestly used to be totally indifferent towards the death penalty. Not for or against it. And then I read all these stories and... there was just no going back. I didn't know there were so many horrible humans so deserving of death. I've read so much about all the damage these monsters have done and it just hurts my soul that no one's dishing it back at them. I mean, we need a Dexter out there. We need someone hunting the hunters. Instead they run wild and free and prey upon women and children literally at will--ruining thousands of lives along the way. As I type these words, there is an abducted woman somewhere, being raped and tortured and burned and hung and strangled and taunted and spit on and finally killed, all so one of these sick fucks can get off. I know. I’ve read the stories. In their own words. I read about one guy that would kidnap little girls and torture them for MONTHS. They would beg to die literally every day. And you know what he’d tell them, the whole time? That he was going to eat them. That their asses would taste nice. So, that’s the last thing these little girls got to see, got to hear. “I am going to eat you.” And he did. He ate them. All seven of them. Oh, and you know how he'd finally kill them? He'd stick an icepick in between their second and third fucking rib, right into their heart, and they would slowly bleed out internally. They would bleed out of their eyes and ears and nose and mouth, and it takes literally hours to die like this. And he would just taunt them the whole time. "Accept that you are going to die," is what he repeated to them. Typing that makes tears whell in my eyes, and I'm not even fucking with you. It makes my jaw muscles pull taught. That's someones baby girl. And that's how she died. Her parents are going to carry that burden to the grave. There is a monster, as I type these words, visiting the most unspeakable horrors on some tied up little girl. And it makes my fucking blood boil. I literally need them to know that I would kill them back. I know that seems silly, doesn't make any sense but... it's just very personal to me. My solutions might not be the best, but at least I fucking care. More than I can say for most the apathetic people in this country. You can tell it's the child-killers that really get me going. I just... can't take it. I think The Dude said it best: "This aggression will not stand... man."
None of this changes the fact that I still think its wrong for you to find joy in killing someone. I'm not against the death penalty, I am very much for it, and the sick individuals that you've mentioned deserve it. But torturing them back then killing them doesn't teach them a lesson, it just helps someone like you get off on justice.
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On April 18 2012 11:03 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 07:34 kellenr wrote:On April 18 2012 05:24 PanN wrote:On April 17 2012 14:57 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 10:36 sc4k wrote:On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that. Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy. Oh yes I remember when I saw that documentary... I was literally inconsolable. The part where they let him go, knowing he's killed over 300 children, my brain just couldn't take it... Yeah, I should have put him on that list. At the very freaking top. The Monster of the fucking Andes. God what I could do with 10 minutes alone with that guy. I despise child killers with such a unique, burning hatred. I mean it's bad enough you've got to kill people. Can't you at least pick on someone your own size? You have to pick on a fucking seven year old? And a girl at that? You're that much of a spineless bitch? God, a high-caliber rifle and a clear sky--ten minutes. All I would need to solve that little problem. I enjoy reading about serial killers too. But I think your mentality of "oh god what I would do if i had 10 minutes with him" and "god a high caliber rifle and a clear sky, ten minutes" is pretty damn disgusting in itself. I'm aware that's how most people feel. I know there is evil in the world, and I feel it is my responsibility as a free man to confront it. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. I don't want to argue about capital punishment. It's cyclical and unending. Suffice to say, I think capital punishment should only be an option for multiple murderers (more than 10) and serial killers, and only in the face of overwhelming evidence. We, especially here in Texas, hand it out a little too willy-nilly. But some people deserve to die and you'll never change my mind on that, so don't bother trying. I think the idea that there is no amount lives a man can take to be deserving of his own being taken is silly. More than anything, it frustrates me how hard these bastard, murdering, psychopathic fucks fight for THEIR lives. That right there tells me we need to keep killing them off. If it means that much to them, good, all the better reason to take it. These monsters need a taste of their own medicine because they literally don't understand anything else. But no, they're granted appeal after appeal after appeal. I bet all the innocence fucking children they murdered would like an appeal. I'm only expressing my opinion. Yeah, it would be disgusting to shoot an innocent person. But someone that's murdered 300 CHILDREN? I could think of no better use for a bullet, ever. As a matter of fact, do a little math with me here. 300 children... lets assume half of them have two parents, and half of them have at least one parent and one grand parent. Lets also assume all of them have a least two close friends. So that's about 1,200 lives this one, single individual ruined. And I don't think you fully comprehend just how "ruined" these parents/grandparents lives are. They literally never recover, ever, no matter what. You can't offer them the tiny solace of knowing that the monster that did it is dead? Well, that's your problem. I'd serve that tiny little comfort up to them in a heartbeat. I just realized I said I wouldn't argue about it, and then I argued about it. Sorry. Not trying to start a flame war. You can just tell it hits... really close to my heart. I honestly used to be totally indifferent towards the death penalty. Not for or against it. And then I read all these stories and... there was just no going back. I didn't know there were so many horrible humans so deserving of death. I've read so much about all the damage these monsters have done and it just hurts my soul that no one's dishing it back at them. I mean, we need a Dexter out there. We need someone hunting the hunters. Instead they run wild and free and prey upon women and children literally at will--ruining thousands of lives along the way. As I type these words, there is an abducted woman somewhere, being raped and tortured and burned and hung and strangled and taunted and spit on and finally killed, all so one of these sick fucks can get off. I know. I’ve read the stories. In their own words. I read about one guy that would kidnap little girls and torture them for MONTHS. They would beg to die literally every day. And you know what he’d tell them, the whole time? That he was going to eat them. That their asses would taste nice. So, that’s the last thing these little girls got to see, got to hear. “I am going to eat you.” And he did. He ate them. All seven of them. Oh, and you know how he'd finally kill them? He'd stick an icepick in between their second and third fucking rib, right into their heart, and they would slowly bleed out internally. They would bleed out of their eyes and ears and nose and mouth, and it takes literally hours to die like this. And he would just taunt them the whole time. "Accept that you are going to die," is what he repeated to them. Typing that makes tears whell in my eyes, and I'm not even fucking with you. It makes my jaw muscles pull taught. That's someones baby girl. And that's how she died. Her parents are going to carry that burden to the grave. There is a monster, as I type these words, visiting the most unspeakable horrors on some tied up little girl. And it makes my fucking blood boil. I literally need them to know that I would kill them back. I know that seems silly, doesn't make any sense but... it's just very personal to me. My solutions might not be the best, but at least I fucking care. More than I can say for most the apathetic people in this country. You can tell it's the child-killers that really get me going. I just... can't take it. I think The Dude said it best: "This aggression will not stand... man." None of this changes the fact that I still think its wrong for you to find joy in killing someone. I'm not against the death penalty, I am very much for it, and the sick individuals that you've mentioned deserve it. But torturing them back then killing them doesn't teach them a lesson, it just helps someone like you get off on justice.
I do not want this to devolve into a flame fest, so I'll keep it short. When you say I "find joy in killing someone," you make the issue a little too black and white. A serial-killer finds joy in killing "someone." I find joy in killing someone that has killed literally hundreds of children. If you think that makes me despicable, and "like them," then so be it. I think it makes me more like a republican than a serial killer, and I hate them too--so I wish you didn't feel that way. I think there is a slight difference between "someone" and "a murderer of 10 - 300 children." When you do that, in my opinion, you revoke your right to life.
Wait, you're for the death penalty? Now I’m just way, way confused. I'm sorry. Clearly I'm being ridiculous. I see both sides of the argument. I totally see how others don't feel like I do. My only defense is, I feel as though I have the burden of knowledge, and it is a heavy burden to carry. The more I understand them, the more I want to fight against them. I wish you could understand that I'm not some sick individual for feeling that way. But you are entitled to your opinion.
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If you guys havent heard, there have been over 60 bomb threats on the University of Pittsburgh in the last month. A lot of people are scared for a columbine like shooting, especially since VTech shootings started with bomb threats too.
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On April 18 2012 11:33 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 11:03 PanN wrote:On April 18 2012 07:34 kellenr wrote:On April 18 2012 05:24 PanN wrote:On April 17 2012 14:57 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 10:36 sc4k wrote:On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that. Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy. Oh yes I remember when I saw that documentary... I was literally inconsolable. The part where they let him go, knowing he's killed over 300 children, my brain just couldn't take it... Yeah, I should have put him on that list. At the very freaking top. The Monster of the fucking Andes. God what I could do with 10 minutes alone with that guy. I despise child killers with such a unique, burning hatred. I mean it's bad enough you've got to kill people. Can't you at least pick on someone your own size? You have to pick on a fucking seven year old? And a girl at that? You're that much of a spineless bitch? God, a high-caliber rifle and a clear sky--ten minutes. All I would need to solve that little problem. I enjoy reading about serial killers too. But I think your mentality of "oh god what I would do if i had 10 minutes with him" and "god a high caliber rifle and a clear sky, ten minutes" is pretty damn disgusting in itself. I'm aware that's how most people feel. I know there is evil in the world, and I feel it is my responsibility as a free man to confront it. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. I don't want to argue about capital punishment. It's cyclical and unending. Suffice to say, I think capital punishment should only be an option for multiple murderers (more than 10) and serial killers, and only in the face of overwhelming evidence. We, especially here in Texas, hand it out a little too willy-nilly. But some people deserve to die and you'll never change my mind on that, so don't bother trying. I think the idea that there is no amount lives a man can take to be deserving of his own being taken is silly. More than anything, it frustrates me how hard these bastard, murdering, psychopathic fucks fight for THEIR lives. That right there tells me we need to keep killing them off. If it means that much to them, good, all the better reason to take it. These monsters need a taste of their own medicine because they literally don't understand anything else. But no, they're granted appeal after appeal after appeal. I bet all the innocence fucking children they murdered would like an appeal. I'm only expressing my opinion. Yeah, it would be disgusting to shoot an innocent person. But someone that's murdered 300 CHILDREN? I could think of no better use for a bullet, ever. As a matter of fact, do a little math with me here. 300 children... lets assume half of them have two parents, and half of them have at least one parent and one grand parent. Lets also assume all of them have a least two close friends. So that's about 1,200 lives this one, single individual ruined. And I don't think you fully comprehend just how "ruined" these parents/grandparents lives are. They literally never recover, ever, no matter what. You can't offer them the tiny solace of knowing that the monster that did it is dead? Well, that's your problem. I'd serve that tiny little comfort up to them in a heartbeat. I just realized I said I wouldn't argue about it, and then I argued about it. Sorry. Not trying to start a flame war. You can just tell it hits... really close to my heart. I honestly used to be totally indifferent towards the death penalty. Not for or against it. And then I read all these stories and... there was just no going back. I didn't know there were so many horrible humans so deserving of death. I've read so much about all the damage these monsters have done and it just hurts my soul that no one's dishing it back at them. I mean, we need a Dexter out there. We need someone hunting the hunters. Instead they run wild and free and prey upon women and children literally at will--ruining thousands of lives along the way. As I type these words, there is an abducted woman somewhere, being raped and tortured and burned and hung and strangled and taunted and spit on and finally killed, all so one of these sick fucks can get off. I know. I’ve read the stories. In their own words. I read about one guy that would kidnap little girls and torture them for MONTHS. They would beg to die literally every day. And you know what he’d tell them, the whole time? That he was going to eat them. That their asses would taste nice. So, that’s the last thing these little girls got to see, got to hear. “I am going to eat you.” And he did. He ate them. All seven of them. Oh, and you know how he'd finally kill them? He'd stick an icepick in between their second and third fucking rib, right into their heart, and they would slowly bleed out internally. They would bleed out of their eyes and ears and nose and mouth, and it takes literally hours to die like this. And he would just taunt them the whole time. "Accept that you are going to die," is what he repeated to them. Typing that makes tears whell in my eyes, and I'm not even fucking with you. It makes my jaw muscles pull taught. That's someones baby girl. And that's how she died. Her parents are going to carry that burden to the grave. There is a monster, as I type these words, visiting the most unspeakable horrors on some tied up little girl. And it makes my fucking blood boil. I literally need them to know that I would kill them back. I know that seems silly, doesn't make any sense but... it's just very personal to me. My solutions might not be the best, but at least I fucking care. More than I can say for most the apathetic people in this country. You can tell it's the child-killers that really get me going. I just... can't take it. I think The Dude said it best: "This aggression will not stand... man." None of this changes the fact that I still think its wrong for you to find joy in killing someone. I'm not against the death penalty, I am very much for it, and the sick individuals that you've mentioned deserve it. But torturing them back then killing them doesn't teach them a lesson, it just helps someone like you get off on justice. I do not want this to devolve into a flame fest, so I'll keep it short. When you say I "find joy in killing someone," you make the issue a little too black and white. A serial-killer finds joy in killing "someone." I find joy in killing someone that has killed literally hundreds of children. If you think that makes me despicable, and "like them," then so be it. I think it makes me more like a republican than a serial killer, and I hate them too--so I wish you didn't feel that way. I think there is a slight difference between "someone" and "a murderer of 10 - 300 children." When you do that, in my opinion, you revoke your right to life. Wait, you're for the death penalty? Now I’m just way, way confused. I'm sorry. Clearly I'm being ridiculous. I see both sides of the argument. I totally see how others don't feel like I do. My only defense is, I feel as though I have the burden of knowledge, and it is a heavy burden to carry. The more I understand them, the more I want to fight against them. I wish you could understand that I'm not some sick individual for feeling that way. But you are entitled to your opinion.
It's not something you can really convince others of, as it requires a level of empathy that is pretty damn hard to convey. For me It stems from a feeling, and it's one of wanting to see the world better off. Unfortunately that means to me that it would be better if some truly heinous people never existed (or weren't alive any longer). Things could get pretty hectic if I had my own death note 
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Sick plans, and so sad.
Thanks for the write up, I learned some things I hadn't ever known from studying the event before.
You really shouldn't be so wishing to inflict harm on others though... Bad path. They're sick, but empathy makes us human.
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On April 17 2012 11:41 sc4k wrote:
Pretty sure being bullied in an American High School is not a worst case scenario of humanity. See: people living in slums in Brazil, India, Africa...child armies, sex slavery, etc.
i think its way more complicated then that. you gotta keep in mind ALL influence from outside.
while i dont think slums fuck up ppls brain too much, i think beeing a child soldier or a sex slave will have an HUGE impact on your consciousness.
On April 17 2012 11:41 sc4k wrote:
Hmm, I'm not sure people draw their entire personality from their environment.
actually im not sure about that any more either. i think the personality is like 99% formed by the outside, but as of lately and what im reading im considering that there may be some kind of preset values we are born with. but i've never seen an example of an violent personality with no apperant reason for it.
there could always be one input that not even the murderer himself is consciously aware of, that made him to what he is.
but since we cant observe all the input one had till his violent behavior, we wont get an answer
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On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow"
Yes, I agree. Well-written, OP, and I like that he takes the time to explain his thoughts thoroughly.
But I disagree that there is any sign of noteworthy intelligence in this kid's journals. He is completely self-absorbed, is all I sense. Intelligent people are always asking questions, and always looking for better answers. This kid just pontificates. We all pontificate, and assert our own reasoning -- something I am surely guilty of -- but we usually take the time later to reassess what it is we were thinking in a more rational light. I didn't sense any thorough logic or reasoning, or any Mein Kampf type of exposition in his writing. Just a self-stroking ego.
Basically, I think Eric wrote these journals hoping people would find his "NBK" attitude and "intelligence" intriguing. In the end, his journals are sadly transparent in that this kid, despite all his anger at people, wanted people's attention and wanted to be respected by people, if not revered. But he was too stupid, too unaware of his own self, to realize it. He hates people because they don't give him the respect he feel he's entitled to, and instead of realizing that, he convinces himself that he doesn't care about people. But you don't sacrifice your life just for the sake of a singular high school that you don't care about. The hatred Eric had for his school was extreme, and he didn't have the personal insight to face up to it. His attempts to politicize and pontificate, instead of addressing the obvious resentment behind his feelings, are pathetic.
Edit: By contrast, look at the guy who mailed out government-made arsenic to various reporters and politicians, anonymously, after 9/11. No one still knows who he/she is. Now there is a scary, intelligent psychopath, who really doesn't care what people think. The "unabomber" is another example of an intelligent psychopath -- that guy was really creepy. The Columbine kids, on the other hand, were really just angst-ridden brats, and that is all.
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On April 17 2012 05:47 kellenr wrote:
More than anything Columbine left me with a visceral sense of victimhood. The amount that was stolen from so many by so few on that day is truly unimaginable.
Ok first off it was truly a grim day and understanding these events and the people who cause them is very important, but it's clearly more of a personal thing for you and has evolved into a fascination of serial killers it seems. Because personally for me it is undeniably tragic, but given all the events of human history I don't find it unimaginable in the least.
So what makes a psychopath? What does Columbine mean to you? Do you think you would have recovered quickly or slowly? Could you forgive them? Do you remember where you were when it happened?
To the questions: I would never claim to know what makes a psychopath that is for people much smarter than me. For me since I wasn't old enough to appreciate it in real time it is more of a blueprint of media overreaction (i.e. witch hunts) after tragic events. They must find someone/something that they can point the finger at and scold. I personally recover quickly from tragic events. I feel deep empathy and sadness for a few days, but I go right on living afterwards. Finally no I don't forgive them, but I'm also against the death penalty and find the urges of others to want to violently and cruelly kill other people no matter what they've done pretty sick.
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EPT
