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In order for this topic to stay open, keep in mind the following: - Understand the difference between sex and gender- Please be respectful to those involved, particularly the transgendered - If you post without reason, or do not add to the discussion, you will be met with moderator action - If you don't know which pronoun is appropriate please feel free to read the topic and inform yourself before posting. We're all for debate but this is a sensitive subject for many people. |
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On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously.
Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions.
Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist.
Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)?
if you change your "personality/soul/whatever you want to call it" unconsciously, then you're not making that decision as a Free Willed agent, and thus you are saying people can't control their behavior.
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On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show.
Nope. Boys and girls act differently from the moment they are able to act. This has been shown in other apes as well, and the cultural factor has been negated in studies and still differences persist.
Obviously this is on average.
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On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show.
That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely.
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On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)?
If you bothered to actually read what he wrote you'd see he didn't make an argument for "souls".
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On April 03 2012 18:37 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely.
Given the fact Freud was "house m.d." intelligence level, and is continually being proven right as psychology progresses, he seems more trustworthy than some fanatic claiming something which isn't measurable or provable exists.
On April 03 2012 18:37 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? If you bothered to actually read what he wrote you'd see he didn't make an argument for "souls".
sorry, it was the fact that he talked about something and called it a soul that threw me.
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United States43248 Posts
On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)?
You and he are talking about different things when he says soul. You're arguing against the religious extra-physical concept which there is no evidence for, he's arguing for the psyche for which there is a lot of evidence. It is not unreasonable for someone's physical brain to be predisposed to identify with the female gender, despite their birth sex. The existence of transgender people pretty much confirms this.
What you are doing is adding a number of biological tests based upon sex in order to qualify for gender. A lot of people born as women would fail one or more of your qualifiers.
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Sorry about his feelings, but working as intended. A man should not be able to qualify as Miss Universe; he may be wearing a skirt, but there's a smelly sausage under it. I'm not trying to come across as ignorant, but that's the simple truth and no amount of surgery can truly change what nature gave him. Well unless he wants to castrate himself, but that still wouldn't give him ovaries and a vagina, and his body will never naturally produce female hormones (without supplements) in the amount biological females produce it.
User was warned for this post
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On April 03 2012 18:40 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Sorry about his feelings, but working as intended. A man should not be able to qualify as Miss Universe.
Luckily you bolded the miss part or I'd totally be confused by your extremely compelling content-filled argument.
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On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? if you change your "personality/soul/whatever you want to call it" unconsciously, then you're not making that decision as a Free Willed agent, and thus you are saying people can't control their behavior.
I use soul not as a mystical term, but as a representative one.
I believe that a person's personality, mentality, and mind define what I personally would call a soul, and that said conglomerate change given time.
I say that people control their behavior and are changed by it.
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On April 03 2012 18:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? You and he are talking about different things when he says soul. You're arguing against the religious extra-physical concept which there is no evidence for, he's arguing for the psyche for which there is a lot of evidence. It is not unreasonable for someone's physical brain to be predisposed to identify with the female gender, despite their birth sex. The existence of transgender people pretty much confirms this. What you are doing is adding a number of biological tests based upon sex in order to qualify for gender. A lot of people born as women would fail one or more of your qualifiers.
only through an error or illness.
There is no evidence for the psyche, as it is as elusive a concept as the religious "soul". And I was speaking non-religiously, because people still belief that, even as an athiest, there is some part of people that's special and above animals, which when pressed we would claim as "their soul". We were talking about the same thing, but you're trying to divide it.
On April 03 2012 18:42 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? if you change your "personality/soul/whatever you want to call it" unconsciously, then you're not making that decision as a Free Willed agent, and thus you are saying people can't control their behavior. I use soul not as a mystical term, but as a representative one. I believe that a person's personality, mentality, and mind define what I personally would call a soul, and that said conglomerate change given time. I say that people control their behavior and are changed by it.
no, you're still using it mystically. What you're describing is called the conscious. You stated that something which they have no control over (something they arent consciously aware of, thus cannot be considered to have any control over), can change who they are. If you can't keep something from changing you, you are not a Free Agent.
This person wasn't born a woman, and has all the signs of being a man. Therefore the duck scenario should prove this person being male.
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On April 03 2012 18:38 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:37 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely. Given the fact Freud was "house m.d." intelligence level, and is continually being proven right as psychology progresses, he seems more trustworthy than some fanatic claiming something which isn't measurable or provable exists.
Actually, Freud was entirely unscientific, fraudulent, and most of his sexual theories have been shown to be bullshit. He contributed a huge amount and should be respected in that, but he is by no means "continually being proven right".
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I guess men have gotta find em hot or it undermines the whole thing...?
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On April 03 2012 18:42 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:39 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:
[quote]
Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post.
She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? You and he are talking about different things when he says soul. You're arguing against the religious extra-physical concept which there is no evidence for, he's arguing for the psyche for which there is a lot of evidence. It is not unreasonable for someone's physical brain to be predisposed to identify with the female gender, despite their birth sex. The existence of transgender people pretty much confirms this. What you are doing is adding a number of biological tests based upon sex in order to qualify for gender. A lot of people born as women would fail one or more of your qualifiers. only through an error or illness. There is no evidence for the psyche, as it is as elusive a concept as the religious "soul". And I was speaking non-religiously, because people still belief that, even as an athiest, there is some part of people that's special and above animals, which when pressed we would claim as "their soul". We were talking about the same thing, but you're trying to divide it.
Actually, KwarK is right. That is exactly what I meant. I'm an atheist, but is soul an exclusively religious term?
Both Freud and Jung say the psyche exists.
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United States43248 Posts
On April 03 2012 18:42 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:39 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:
[quote]
Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post.
She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? You and he are talking about different things when he says soul. You're arguing against the religious extra-physical concept which there is no evidence for, he's arguing for the psyche for which there is a lot of evidence. It is not unreasonable for someone's physical brain to be predisposed to identify with the female gender, despite their birth sex. The existence of transgender people pretty much confirms this. What you are doing is adding a number of biological tests based upon sex in order to qualify for gender. A lot of people born as women would fail one or more of your qualifiers. only through an error or illness. There is no evidence for the psyche, as it is as elusive a concept as the religious "soul". And I was speaking non-religiously, because people still belief that, even as an athiest, there is some part of people that's special and above animals, which when pressed we would claim as "their soul". We were talking about the same thing, but you're trying to divide it.
People have an 'I' which they are self aware of. It doesn't exist independently of the brain but it does exist. You can test it yourself with a second of contemplation.
Regarding not excluding people from a gender based upon error, being born the wrong sex seems a pretty huge error. Transgender people very much qualify for that exception.
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On April 03 2012 18:40 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Sorry about his feelings, but working as intended. A man should not be able to qualify as Miss Universe; he may be wearing a skirt, but there's a smelly sausage under it. I'm not trying to come across as ignorant, but that's the simple truth and no amount of surgery can truly change what nature gave him. Well unless he wants to castrate himself, but that still wouldn't give him ovaries and a vagina, and his body will never naturally produce female hormones (without supplements) in the amount biological females produce it.
Actually, in most transgender women,
+ Show Spoiler +
The penis is cut off, but leaving the stimulatory tissue behind. This tissue is then shaped backwards by surgery to form a vagina essentially identical to that of a natural female's. This is very common, and can be easily found with a Google search.
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On April 03 2012 18:45 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:42 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:39 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:
[quote]He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him.
No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? You and he are talking about different things when he says soul. You're arguing against the religious extra-physical concept which there is no evidence for, he's arguing for the psyche for which there is a lot of evidence. It is not unreasonable for someone's physical brain to be predisposed to identify with the female gender, despite their birth sex. The existence of transgender people pretty much confirms this. What you are doing is adding a number of biological tests based upon sex in order to qualify for gender. A lot of people born as women would fail one or more of your qualifiers. only through an error or illness. There is no evidence for the psyche, as it is as elusive a concept as the religious "soul". And I was speaking non-religiously, because people still belief that, even as an athiest, there is some part of people that's special and above animals, which when pressed we would claim as "their soul". We were talking about the same thing, but you're trying to divide it. Actually, KwarK is right. That is exactly what I meant. I'm an atheist, but is soul an exclusively religious term? Both Freud and Jung say the psyche exists.
I know what you meant from the start, and I was arguing against that. the "psyche" does exist, but it's not "the soul" of a person in the way that you think. Your argument has devolved to simply claiming I'm misunderstanding you when I'm not.
On April 03 2012 18:48 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:40 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Sorry about his feelings, but working as intended. A man should not be able to qualify as Miss Universe; he may be wearing a skirt, but there's a smelly sausage under it. I'm not trying to come across as ignorant, but that's the simple truth and no amount of surgery can truly change what nature gave him. Well unless he wants to castrate himself, but that still wouldn't give him ovaries and a vagina, and his body will never naturally produce female hormones (without supplements) in the amount biological females produce it. Actually, in most transgender women, + Show Spoiler +
The penis is cut off, but leaving the stimulatory tissue behind. This tissue is then shaped backwards by surgery to form a vagina essentially identical to that of a natural female's. This is very common, and can be easily found with a Google search.
if you've seen a lot of real female vaginas, and bothered to look at a random photograph of a transgender post-op creation, you wouldn't call them "essentially identical"
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On April 03 2012 18:48 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:45 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:42 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:39 KwarK wrote:On April 03 2012 18:35 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:32 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:29 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:25 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:21 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:
[quote]
No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely.
You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. Why wouldn't I? You and he can both claim that "female" denotes what a person thinks of himself as. That's a very recent notion, and one which many still disagree with. As far as I'm concerned, your (and his) attempt to get others to use the language and pronouns that you prefer is a bullying attempt to push your own agenda. We agree about the facts here: he (or "she", if you prefer) was born a man, thought of himself ("herself") as a woman since a young age, and has undergone procedures to make himself ("herself") phenotypically similar to a woman. The question of whether this actually makes him a woman is mainly a question of semantics/categorization. You believe that he should be placed in the same category as people who were born as women. I think that he should be placed in the same category as men. Clearly, he's got some similarities to and some differences from "typical" examples of each category, so what makes your categorization more valid than mine? "she has met the gender recognition requirements for being female in Canada." She identifies her self as a woman, has since she was a child, has had re-constructive surgery, and has gone through hormone therapy treatment. She's female. when she kills someone, the DNA evidence will have them looking for a man. What do you think of that? On April 03 2012 18:28 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:24 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:
[quote]
Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post.
She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Can I choose to be a woman too, yet not get the surgery and just go around calling myself a woman and getting female advantages like money for college and other things? How much surgery is required for you to be considered a woman? How much estrogen taken? The idea that you're a woman born in a man's body or vice versa is silly, because your body defines your gender. there's no special metaphysical component to a person that makes them male or female beyond the body. Everyone should watch Little Big Man. I have a feeling the idea of surgery to change genders is due to the sexist viewpoints of societies saying "men cant behave like X" and "women cant behave like Y", therefore, you must be a woman if you want to behave like Y, and the only way to be accepted is to have surgery. he isn't a real woman, the same way a cross dresser isn't a real woman. There's no way to measure or test a person's claim that they are "really a wo/man trapped in a wrong gendered body". How about you actually back up your claim of saying its impossible to be born the wrong gender instead of just SAYING it? I've seen countless documentaries / shows on trans-gendered people saying the EXACT opposite of what you're claiming. I think I'll believe psychologist / scientist over you until you can actually back up your claim. I actually don't believe you because that'd be a poor scientist who proves something which can't be proven. You're talking about your "soul" being male or female, and souls don't exist. That's a non-issue. Why would we take into account murder for something so obviously not? Souls exist. They are a person's mentality, personality. I call them souls. And they can be changed by the person, though not consciously. Soul is just another way of using people as scapegoats with some eternal constant that exists outside of psychological conditioning and genetic predispositions. Or can you provide documented proof that scientists have discovered souls really exist. Can she give birth to children? Does she have a period? Does she have brain mass equivalent to a female (female brains are different in size to male brains)? You and he are talking about different things when he says soul. You're arguing against the religious extra-physical concept which there is no evidence for, he's arguing for the psyche for which there is a lot of evidence. It is not unreasonable for someone's physical brain to be predisposed to identify with the female gender, despite their birth sex. The existence of transgender people pretty much confirms this. What you are doing is adding a number of biological tests based upon sex in order to qualify for gender. A lot of people born as women would fail one or more of your qualifiers. only through an error or illness. There is no evidence for the psyche, as it is as elusive a concept as the religious "soul". And I was speaking non-religiously, because people still belief that, even as an athiest, there is some part of people that's special and above animals, which when pressed we would claim as "their soul". We were talking about the same thing, but you're trying to divide it. Actually, KwarK is right. That is exactly what I meant. I'm an atheist, but is soul an exclusively religious term? Both Freud and Jung say the psyche exists. I know what you meant from the start, and I was arguing against that. the "psyche" does exist, but it's not "the soul" of a person in the way that you think. Your argument has devolved to simply claiming I'm misunderstanding you when I'm not.
You did misunderstand him. He used soul interchangeably with conscious and you went on a rant about consciousness even though that never needed to be explained in the first place seeing as you're the only person that was confused by it in the beginning.
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On April 03 2012 18:24 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:20 bOneSeven wrote:
Dunno why you guys get worked up. She was a dude, so no contest. If you want to be politically correct I suggest you talk to a very good psychologist about trans gender people and see what's up. One more bigot. Transgender people are not, ARE NOT, people who switch because it is cool or fun. It is a highly painful process, and is only done when a person truly identifies with the other gender. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
Apparently you read what you want and ignore my actual post. My mother was actually the VP of Romanian greatest LGBT rights NGO( in Romanian you would say ONG - Non-governmental organization in english mb ? ), also having a degree in psychology, we talked about them, they are living a rather miserable life. It is complicated to get into but you can read 10 books about it but I'll still know better because I lived in a environment which dealt with such people.
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On April 03 2012 18:42 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 18:38 Spieltor wrote:On April 03 2012 18:37 Praetorial wrote:On April 03 2012 18:34 sharky246 wrote:On April 03 2012 18:16 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On April 03 2012 18:14 PanN wrote:On April 03 2012 18:12 qrs wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. He's a man who had surgery/hormone therapy; just call him him. No. He was born a female mentally, and is now female completely. You're an extremely rude and insensitive individual. I highly doubt you'd have the balls to tell this woman that shes a "man" to her face. This raises the question. Are people born male/female mentally, or is that a part of growing up? People aren't born male or female mentally. Kids before reaching puberty have no sexuality, that is, they are just boys and girls, physically only. At least that is what i learnt from a psychologist talking in a morning talk show. That's what Freud said about latency. Whether we trust Freud is another matter entirely. Given the fact Freud was "house m.d." intelligence level, and is continually being proven right as psychology progresses, he seems more trustworthy than some fanatic claiming something which isn't measurable or provable exists. Actually, Freud was entirely unscientific, freudulent*, and most of his sexual theories have been shown to be bullshit. He contributed a huge amount and should be respected in that, but he is by no means "continually being proven right".
FTFY
Seriously though, there are a lot of things that differ between a natural m/f and a trans one.
Yes you can keep appearances up, but..
I can accept LGB, because those people don't have to commit to a permanent stance.
It's different for T. I feel like we shouldn't be encouraging people to do radical things like completely change their gender. If perhaps there's some issue with society that makes people feel like they have to change gender, we should be attempting to make ourselves better by allowing for that.
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