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In order for this topic to stay open, keep in mind the following: - Understand the difference between sex and gender- Please be respectful to those involved, particularly the transgendered - If you post without reason, or do not add to the discussion, you will be met with moderator action - If you don't know which pronoun is appropriate please feel free to read the topic and inform yourself before posting. We're all for debate but this is a sensitive subject for many people. |
On April 05 2012 11:07 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:31 Defacer wrote:On April 05 2012 09:20 liberal wrote:I just realized this woman's name... Jenna Talackova. Jennatalackova. Coincidence, or does this woman have a sense of humor?  It took me a few reads, but this makes me want her to win more. Maybe she's a comedic genius. Don't get it. Mind explaining?
On April 04 2012 04:14 ilikeredheads wrote:
I just realized something....
Her name is Jenna Talackova
...................genital lack of a.....
OH SNAP it's hiding in plain sight!!
As long as she's nor breaking any rules of the competition, i don't really care if she's in or not. BTW, she's not exactly back in yet. She needs to provide "the legal gender recognition requirements of Canada, and the standards established by other international competitions.”
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On April 05 2012 09:31 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:20 liberal wrote:I just realized this woman's name... Jenna Talackova. Jennatalackova. Coincidence, or does this woman have a sense of humor? It took me a few reads, but this makes me want her to win more. Maybe she's a comedic genius.
oh my god...
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On April 05 2012 11:15 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 11:07 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On April 05 2012 09:31 Defacer wrote:On April 05 2012 09:20 liberal wrote:I just realized this woman's name... Jenna Talackova. Jennatalackova. Coincidence, or does this woman have a sense of humor? It took me a few reads, but this makes me want her to win more. Maybe she's a comedic genius. Don't get it. Mind explaining? Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 04:14 ilikeredheads wrote:
I just realized something....
Her name is Jenna Talackova
...................genital lack of a.....
OH SNAP it's hiding in plain sight!!
As long as she's nor breaking any rules of the competition, i don't really care if she's in or not. BTW, she's not exactly back in yet. She needs to provide "the legal gender recognition requirements of Canada, and the standards established by other international competitions.”
Damn someone beat me to it 
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Is this truely that important?
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On April 05 2012 04:26 Iyerbeth wrote:
The child would most certainly not be asexual, though I don't think that's the term you meant. Not only do you have no basis for a claim that the child would grow up without an understanding of gender, you are actually in opposition to the study in to gender in both animals and humans. If you truely believe you'd just be a lesbian if you were somehow moved in to a woman seems like you haven't considered the issue through beyond what it means sexually. There are trans children who don't even understand the concept of being one sex or another and yet still understand their gender doesn't fit it.
Being a woman as a gender does not mean wanting to wear frilly dresses, use the pink crayon or be a disney princess it is identifying at your core as female. The sense that your body is absolutely wrong if it appears wrong is inescapable for anyone with gender dysphoria. The idea of never being recognised by friends or family for who you were and seeing your whole life through someone else's perspective, being spoken past and forced in to uncomfortable situations (gender specific searches, bathrooms, and yes relationship status) is crushing. The fact you don't understand that even as a concept suggests you really don't understand what it is to not have sex and gender in allignment at all.
Self identification is of course heavily influenced by society, but you have no basis at all to say that every aspect of who we identify as is entirely societal with no basis in biology.
Could you please explain exactly what gender is, then? Because as I understand it now, it is either: 1. The grammatical form used to decline adjectives, pronouns, and nouns so that they are in agreement. 2. The social roles fulfilled by people in a form correlated in most societies with their sex. 3. How someone feels that they should be. or 4. Some loose definition with no real meaning at all. By my understanding of the word gender (limited usually to the first 2 definitions), no SRS is necessary, or any of the other treatments usually associated with Transgender or transsexual people (at this point, both of these terms are so often conflated and used interchangeably that I, at least fail to see the difference between the two). Now if we're talking about transgender people in the light of someone who wishes to adopt the societal roles associated with the other sex, then I really see no reason why that would necessitate any of the drastic actions taken by these people, generally. Societal roles really have no direct bearing in the use of the words male or female or man or woman or he or she.
At the same time, however, transgender is also used in the same way transsexual was, that is, someone who feels desperately that they ought to be the other sex. The way you describe this (and I'll stipulate to you on this one, since I'm not impossibly well read on the subject), it sounds to me like this can only be a case of some mental, hormonal, or other psychological type disorder (meant in the most inoffensive way possible) - certainly not a case of someone who simply doesn't like the role that people of their chromosomal makeup have filled in society. But in this case, still, why the obsession with language? If I approached a woman not conversant in english and referred to her as 'he' throughout the conversation, would she notice? Would she care? Of course not. The words themselves have no meaning apart from those we assign to them. So why do we go through the trouble of letting a rather select group of people define the use of the English language according to some ambiguous demands? I understand the argument of being sensitive and all, but wouldn't it be better, for all concerned (and for the reasons you listed earlier (if I remember correctly) as well) if instead of using these pronouns, with their grammatical gender differences, to refer to the social role of the person, if instead they referred to something concrete (say chromosomal makeup). At this point, then, they become useless anyways as identifiers except in specific contexts, which, as far as I'm concerned, is better than the current situation and the ambiguous mess of the feminist/LGBTQ/Postmodern terminology pox.
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@refmac_cys.cys: Transgender is an umbrella term that constitutes transsexuals, cross dressers, fetishistic cross dressing/transvestism, gender fluid, gender queer, bigender, polygendered, and a few other groups.
A lot of transsexuals identify as transgendered because of the negative connotations from stereotyping on the word transsexual.
Actually transitioning has little if anything to do with adopting different social roles--here on the U.S. east coast especially, gender role norms are pretty lenient, and no one seems to really give a shit. It's something much deeper than that. My own transition as a viewpoint, nothing about me really changed (I'm not horrifically depressed and dysfunctional anymore though) and I still like/enjoy/do the same things as I did before transitioning.
On to pronoun usage: would YOU be offended if EVERYONE intentionally misgendered you, all the time? Maybe not at first, but after say, five years, would it bug you? I've already made about three really long posts on the subject of pronouns, and why insisting birth genitals/chromosome makeup as the basis for gendered pronouns is both unrealistic and goes out of its way to be an asshole for the sake of self-righteousness and closemindedness, so I'll be short to the point here:
Look at the OP, the pageant contestant. If you saw her on the street, would you call her by male pronouns in conversation? Do you really think someone who lives, acts, and blends as their "new" social gender should make it a point to be called by their birth gender pronouns--something they have no attachment to at all, feel disdainful towards even considering connected with themselves?
Seriously, just call her "her." It's so much easier and it makes so much more sense.
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On April 05 2012 11:15 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 11:07 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On April 05 2012 09:31 Defacer wrote:On April 05 2012 09:20 liberal wrote:I just realized this woman's name... Jenna Talackova. Jennatalackova. Coincidence, or does this woman have a sense of humor? It took me a few reads, but this makes me want her to win more. Maybe she's a comedic genius. Don't get it. Mind explaining? Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 04:14 ilikeredheads wrote:
I just realized something....
Her name is Jenna Talackova
...................genital lack of a.....
OH SNAP it's hiding in plain sight!!
As long as she's nor breaking any rules of the competition, i don't really care if she's in or not. BTW, she's not exactly back in yet. She needs to provide "the legal gender recognition requirements of Canada, and the standards established by other international competitions.”
I read it as "genital lack ova" -- as in female sex cells 
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I don't even know how I ended up reading this thread, but probably it's because it has a mod note and such threads tend to be interesting. Let me ignore for a while how absurd the whole thing is (as in the "beauty competitions" as a whole completely defy any reason, so how can you reason about what should their rules be?) and what do I really think (that people, particularly the more sutpid ones, tend to give an absurd amount focus to anything related to sex in any way and that in fact it is not a big deal at all) let me focus on the mod note.
I think it is a sign of a continuing very bad trend on TL. It promotes political correctness at its worst. It aruges that it is a "sensitive topic for many people" the worst weasel phrase ever invented (why couldn't we have a law that requires every keyboard maker to detect typing of such a phrase and to send an electric shock to the user's hands in such a case?). And it presents the politically correct opinion as a fact. People are even being banned for "not understanding the sex/gender disticntion" - but the mere existence of that is just an opinion of some people (that they like to present as a "scientific truth" to strenghten their case, completely ignoring how relative any human studies are).
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the "this is our house" argument, but that doesn't take away your guilt for spreading the plague of political correctness further, paticularly given the volume current of the traffic at the site.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Please take those criticisms to website feedback, as opposed to creating a simultaneous discussion in this thread.
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Squarewalker, your post was really well written, and I have to say I like the breathing/suffocating point, I had never considered it like that but it's really quite fitting. I also don't know the answer to your first question, sorry.
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On April 05 2012 19:03 opisska wrote:
I don't even know how I ended up reading this thread, but probably it's because it has a mod note and such threads tend to be interesting. Let me ignore for a while how absurd the whole thing is (as in the "beauty competitions" as a whole completely defy any reason, so how can you reason about what should their rules be?) and what do I really think (that people, particularly the more sutpid ones, tend to give an absurd amount focus to anything related to sex in any way and that in fact it is not a big deal at all) let me focus on the mod note.
I think it is a sign of a continuing very bad trend on TL. It promotes political correctness at its worst. It aruges that it is a "sensitive topic for many people" the worst weasel phrase ever invented (why couldn't we have a law that requires every keyboard maker to detect typing of such a phrase and to send an electric shock to the user's hands in such a case?). And it presents the politically correct opinion as a fact. People are even being banned for "not understanding the sex/gender disticntion" - but the mere existence of that is just an opinion of some people (that they like to present as a "scientific truth" to strenghten their case, completely ignoring how relative any human studies are).
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the "this is our house" argument, but that doesn't take away your guilt for spreading the plague of political correctness further, paticularly given the volume current of the traffic at the site.
I disagree. TL is filled with an immature rebel-without-a-cause mentality that goes directly against what it deems as "political correctness." I'd provide some links, but as you could just argue that individual posts or threads (like this or this or this) aren't indicative of the community as a whole (in which case I would fail to see where you're drawing any of this opinion from, but hey, you do you). Just think critically for a second - do you really believe the English-speaking communities of the internet, filled with mostly privileged white males who one could argue do not benefit from a more racially and sexually open community, are the ones pushing for what you call "political correctness"? Seriously? Does that really make logical sense to you?
On-topic: What the guys from TheYoungTurks said were spot-on, but I'm not entirely sure if Jenna T should be able to compete. This is kind of an iffy subject, because a "Miss Universe" pageant-type event is in of itself "sexist," because it allows only those who the event organizers deem to be a woman to compete. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't know. Pageants reward those who have very specific qualities - namely, good (womanly) looks and charisma. A self-defined man would obviously lose this competition, due to the fact that he does not have womanly looks, but that's just the nature of the competition - it's inherently unfair. That said, in my mind, that man should still be able to compete - but of course a typical man wouldn't bother. Because it'd be silly and futile.
You can't really claim that this unfairness is "bad" and shouldn't happen, since that has its own rather idiotic implications - the idea that we shouldn't have competitions because the competitions favor those who are better are competing.
I think it's pretty clear. I don't think the event organizers have no responsibility to keep things "fair." If they don't want a contestant to compete, no matter what the reason, they have the right to disqualify that contestant. In my opinion, Jenna T is for all intents and purposes a woman, but my opinion doesn't matter. If they don't want her, they shouldn't be forced to take her. It would just give me (and apparently many others) a more negative opinion of the pageant, which I otherwise would care very little about.
It sucks that some people aren't open-minded enough to recognize the futility of social constructs like gender or race, but the administrators have no responsibility to be open-minded.
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So can someone help me here, the way I understand it gender is what is determined by your experience, social environment, etc. And sex is the biological side, simply put if you have a penis you are a male.
So if someone is transgender they changed only their gender? Meaning they still have their "original" genitals? And a transexual would be someone that underwent chirurgy to change their biological sex?
But on the op it says she is transgender, and had chirurgy. I did read the link provided but it confirms what I originaly though to be true.
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On April 05 2012 19:58 NeonFox wrote:
So can someone help me here, the way I understand it gender is what is determined by your experience, social environment, etc. And sex is the biological side, simply put if you have a penis you are a male.
So if someone is transgender they changed only their gender? Meaning they still have their "original" genitals? And a transexual would be someone that underwent chirurgy to change their biological sex?
But on the op it says she is transgender, and had chirurgy. I did read the link provided but it confirms what I originaly though to be true.
You're basically correct, though for various reasons not all transsexuals can get surgery. People often, especially in the media, use the wrong terms, but then so do people who would belong to one or the other. Here's some descriptions I used in a blog a while ago. If you're just interested in those two it's the top and bottom ones.
Transsexual – Someone born with characteristics of a sex that does not conform with their gender identity. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +That is the complete definition, it has nothing to do with any medical treatment (surgical, psychological or pharmaceutical [Ed: though in the blog I do explain these are common amongst transsexuals]), sexual preferences or fetishes, personality or even conforming with gender stereotypes. It is not a weekend hobby, it is a core identity. As much as you are male or female and couldn't change that, the same is true for a trans person. If you woke up tomorrow biological the opposite sex, you would still be the same person you are now. Gender is an identity, not a body type (or more crudely but more often worded as “it's what's between your head, not your legs”). Transvestite – Someone who engages in cross-dressing, which is to say dressing in clothes typically reserved for people belonging to the opposite sex. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +Transvestite is a term used to describe people who cross-dress. Whilst it is common that this is for sexual gratification, that isn't always the case but the important distinction is that the individual still identifies with their biological sex. A male transvestite dressed as a woman is still a man, and unlike a transsexual would not be offended by being classed as such, though often it's is proper to refer to them as the gender they're displaying this is a case by case thing. Referring to a transsexual as a transvestite is to literally say “You're not a woman, you're a man dressed as a woman” and that is extremely hurtful. Cis-gendered: Someone for who biological and psychological sex and gender align. Basically a non transgendered person. Androgynous: A person who exhibits both male and female typical sexual markers. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +Androgynous people cover a large group. Colloquially it refers to someone who in appearance appears unidentifiable on the scale of man to woman. The literal meaning is someone though who expresses both masculine and feminine biological traits, sometimes to the extent that determining a gender identify from them without their input is not possible. Hermaphrodites (those born with sex organs of both sexes) are often put in to this category. Genderqueer: A person who identifies as neither male or female. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +Whilst for practical purposes a pronoun is usually apparent, those who identify as genderqueer could not be identified on a binary scale of male or female, but rather find comfort somewhere in the middle. Because of just how wide this definition is I can't really give a more in depth description than that, they come as a case by case basis. I don't know anyone who identifies as Genderqueer personally so I'm hoping someone else might be able to help here. Transgender: This is an umbrella term for anyone who's expression of gender doesn't match that typically assigned at birth. This can literally cover everyone from transsexuals to transvestites to androgynous people and genderqueer individuals.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2012 20:18 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 19:58 NeonFox wrote:
So can someone help me here, the way I understand it gender is what is determined by your experience, social environment, etc. And sex is the biological side, simply put if you have a penis you are a male.
So if someone is transgender they changed only their gender? Meaning they still have their "original" genitals? And a transexual would be someone that underwent chirurgy to change their biological sex?
But on the op it says she is transgender, and had chirurgy. I did read the link provided but it confirms what I originaly though to be true. You're basically correct, though for various reasons not all transsexuals can get surgery. People often, especially in the media, use the wrong terms, but then so do people who would belong to one or the other. Here's some descriptions I used in a blog a while ago. If you're just interested in those two it's the top and bottom ones. Show nested quote +Transsexual – Someone born with characteristics of a sex that does not conform with their gender identity. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +That is the complete definition, it has nothing to do with any medical treatment (surgical, psychological or pharmaceutical [Ed: though in the blog I do explain these are common amongst transsexuals]), sexual preferences or fetishes, personality or even conforming with gender stereotypes. It is not a weekend hobby, it is a core identity. As much as you are male or female and couldn't change that, the same is true for a trans person. If you woke up tomorrow biological the opposite sex, you would still be the same person you are now. Gender is an identity, not a body type (or more crudely but more often worded as “it's what's between your head, not your legs”). Transvestite – Someone who engages in cross-dressing, which is to say dressing in clothes typically reserved for people belonging to the opposite sex. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +Transvestite is a term used to describe people who cross-dress. Whilst it is common that this is for sexual gratification, that isn't always the case but the important distinction is that the individual still identifies with their biological sex. A male transvestite dressed as a woman is still a man, and unlike a transsexual would not be offended by being classed as such, though often it's is proper to refer to them as the gender they're displaying this is a case by case thing. Referring to a transsexual as a transvestite is to literally say “You're not a woman, you're a man dressed as a woman” and that is extremely hurtful. Cis-gendered: Someone for who biological and psychological sex and gender align. Basically a non transgendered person. Androgynous: A person who exhibits both male and female typical sexual markers. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +Androgynous people cover a large group. Colloquially it refers to someone who in appearance appears unidentifiable on the scale of man to woman. The literal meaning is someone though who expresses both masculine and feminine biological traits, sometimes to the extent that determining a gender identify from them without their input is not possible. Hermaphrodites (those born with sex organs of both sexes) are often put in to this category. Genderqueer: A person who identifies as neither male or female. + Show Spoiler [Extended explanation] +Whilst for practical purposes a pronoun is usually apparent, those who identify as genderqueer could not be identified on a binary scale of male or female, but rather find comfort somewhere in the middle. Because of just how wide this definition is I can't really give a more in depth description than that, they come as a case by case basis. I don't know anyone who identifies as Genderqueer personally so I'm hoping someone else might be able to help here. Transgender: This is an umbrella term for anyone who's expression of gender doesn't match that typically assigned at birth. This can literally cover everyone from transsexuals to transvestites to androgynous people and genderqueer individuals.
Thank you for your thorough explanation, it's clearer now.
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On April 05 2012 04:43 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 04:26 Iyerbeth wrote:On April 05 2012 04:09 liberal wrote:
Gender is a human construct, so it's not really possible to biologically "feel" like a gender in my opinion. It is possible to biologically feel an attraction to one sex or the other, but since gender is defined sociologically, then "gender identity" as we describe it is necessarily a sociological phenomenon, not a physical one.
If I take the example in the OP and imagine transplanting my brain into a woman's body, I would consider myself a lesbian woman. I can't change my sexual orientation, but I can change the behaviors commonly associated with the opposite sex. For example, wearing a dress, wearing make up, etc. I'm not saying it would come naturally, but it is learned behavior, not biological behavior. Gender roles and identity are determined by society and so they cannot be innate.
What does it even mean to "feel" like a man or a woman, except to say "I feel like behaving in the ways that society has established for men/women because I identity with them." Self-identification is ALWAYS sociological in nature, not biological. If you raised a child with asexual robots, then the child would have no gender identity and no concept of gender at all. The child would most certainly not be asexual, though I don't think that's the term you meant. Not only do you have no basis for a claim that the child would grow up without an understanding of gender, you are actually in opposition to the study in to gender in both animals and humans. If you truely believe you'd just be a lesbian if you were somehow moved in to a woman seems like you haven't considered the issue through beyond what it means sexually. There are trans children who don't even understand the concept of being one sex or another and yet still understand their gender doesn't fit it. Being a woman as a gender does not mean wanting to wear frilly dresses, use the pink crayon or be a disney princess it is identifying at your core as female. The sense that your body is absolutely wrong if it appears wrong is inescapable for anyone with gender dysphoria. The idea of never being recognised by friends or family for who you were and seeing your whole life through someone else's perspective, being spoken past and forced in to uncomfortable situations (gender specific searches, bathrooms, and yes relationship status) is crushing. The fact you don't understand that even as a concept suggests you really don't understand what it is to not have sex and gender in allignment at all. Self identification is of course heavily influenced by society, but you have no basis at all to say that every aspect of who we identify as is entirely societal with no basis in biology. Suppose a woman were to say, "I feel like a male." Let's identify what that means... First of all, how do we define a male? Someone with a penis? Someone with a Y chromosome? Obviously when she says she "feels like a male" she isn't saying "I feel like I should have a penis" or "I feel like I should have a Y chromosome." She is saying she feels like adhering to the stereotypes and customs that society associates with males (which includes having a penis). If gender is not sex, and gender is not biological masculinity/femininity, then how else can we possibly describe it except as a purely social construct?
World is not black and white and your distinction between purely biological and purely social is black and white fallacy. Gender is not a purely social construct and self-identification is deeply rooted in biology. The social gender roles and customs are just implementations of baser biological drives by different societies.
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+ Show Spoiler +Retrospectively edited out
Square, that was one of the best posts I've ever read on this forum. I'm glad you felt that you could share this with us.
Keep us crazies over in #tlponies in your thoughts. We like you, and we like having you around. We're your friends through all of this, and we wish you the best, hoping that you can one day feel genuinely good about yourself. You deserve to. /) Cheers, girl.
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On April 05 2012 19:58 NeonFox wrote:
So can someone help me here, the way I understand it gender is what is determined by your experience, social environment, etc. And sex is the biological side, simply put if you have a penis you are a male.
So if someone is transgender they changed only their gender? Meaning they still have their "original" genitals? And a transexual would be someone that underwent chirurgy to change their biological sex?
But on the op it says she is transgender, and had chirurgy. I did read the link provided but it confirms what I originaly though to be true.
Transgender is an umbrella term, read the prefix "Trans" as "Not gender typical of birth assigned sex."
Transsexual is an individual who wants to change biological sex to match gender identity. Read the prefix "Trans" here as "Moving from one to another."
One of the reasons I hate the term transgender, common language usage of prefix trans means to change... and to the unfamiliar it makes people think I'm changing my gender... that's the only thing that remains constant.
@Square, beautiful post. Chin up and focus on being happy, and do whatever it takes--sacrificing yourself for others in the end isn't worth it.
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Square, I'm glad you were able to write that post It must feel a lot better finally getting some of your feelings on paper and it takes a lot of courage to not only do that, but to post it in a public forum. Great job.
Remember, I'm always a query away in #tlponies and I'll always try to offer you as much encouragement as I can. Personally, I don't care if someone decides to be transgender. I've known someone that was making the switch, so I've learned a bit about the process. It's a very scary, expensive, and risky procedure, so someone willing to commit to that due to true feelings that strong has nothing but my deepest respect.
Anyway, best of luck with this whole thing. I know it can't be easy, but I'll do what I can to help from my end. <3
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I hope Jenna wins it for squarewalker.
There's nothing worse than not being able to be yourself, or be comfortable with who you are (let alone proud of it). Can't imagine how difficult it would be to be transgender.
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EPT
