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In order for this topic to stay open, keep in mind the following: - Understand the difference between sex and gender - Please be respectful to those involved, particularly the transgendered - If you post without reason, or do not add to the discussion, you will be met with moderator action - If you don't know which pronoun is appropriate please feel free to read the topic and inform yourself before posting. We're all for debate but this is a sensitive subject for many people. | ||
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Ewic
Canada121 Posts
On a side note of a similar topic, something I thought of... If in the future, there was a way to turn humans into other animals like dogs, and there were still dog pageants/contests, I don't think letting that human-into-dog person should be allowed to compete. P.S. This is my opinion, don't get mad if you disagree please... I'm not looking for an argument or discussion... | ||
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Harmonious
179 Posts
On April 04 2012 16:50 Ewic wrote: P.S. This is my opinion, don't get mad if you disagree please... I'm not looking for an argument or discussion... This is the internet after all  On April 04 2012 16:50 Ewic wrote: Now, if I were to meet him face-to-face, I would respect him and refer to him as a "she", but in my eyes, he's still a man That is your choice of course, but I would like you to expand on why you do not recognize the difference between sex and gender? Without doing that you sound like you have an idea on how things should be and are not adjusting to how things really are. Personally I think that the scientifically established facts are what should matter and not peoples opinions on what or who someone is or isn't. | ||
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FalahNorei
Germany56 Posts
On April 04 2012 16:50 Ewic wrote: In my opinion, she should not be allowed to compete. If you are born a male, you're male. Now, if I were to meet him face-to-face, I would respect him and refer to him as a "she", but in my eyes, he's still a man. And that is why, since the beauty pageant is female-only, I would not let him compete. On a side note of a similar topic, something I thought of... If in the future, there was a way to turn humans into other animals like dogs, and there were still dog pageants/contests, I don't think letting that human-into-dog person should be allowed to compete. P.S. This is my opinion, don't get mad if you disagree please... I'm not looking for an argument or discussion... I'm not gonna rip your face off or something, but what do you base your opinion on? personally I don't think every opinion should be tolerated or accepted, the more an opinion is based on logical facts, the more I think it should matter - and the more an opinion is just an idea of somebody, or lead by emotions, the harder I find it to even value it. would make it kinda pointless to put efford in an opinion or theory if I can as well just make something up 'cause I feel like it. also, if you don't wanna argue or discuss, why do you post in a discussion thread filled with arguments? | ||
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Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
Same surgeon? I love that you must be a "naturally born woman" to enter, but major plastic surgery is not a reason for disqualification. Anyway I'm glad that she was able to compete, unfortunately I don't think she has any chance of winning now that people know that she is a transgender person. It would have been better if you won, or came second or something and then told everyone. | ||
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Gnosis
Scotland912 Posts
On April 04 2012 08:54 Alay wrote: The best answer I can give is that you kind of just "know". It'd probably be next to impossible to describe with words (and cisgendered people can experience this too, when posed the question "without using physical attributes as evidence, how are you sure you're male/female?") however evidence that it actually exists comes in the form of extreme depression revolving around feeling gender incongruent (gender dysphoria) to the extent that it has extreme interference with daily life (gender identity disorder.) It's only after an individual has expressed these for a long period of time under the supervision of a gender specialist that basic hormonal treatment will be prescribed--and only after two years in most cases of living full time as the 'target' gender will genital surgeries be permitted for those that seek it (which required in most cases two letters of recommendation from different gender specialists) so it's hardly something that can be done on a whim. Further, I think someone that wasn't very serious would realize very quickly that there's only pain in being trans, and thus pretending to be trans (and actually transitioning) would be a pretty stupid idea. Again, most people only transition because the alternative is suicide from the intensity of their depression. Finally, I don't so much think it's a case of the universe getting it wrong, so much as it's just a physiological phenomenon, brought on by a roll on the biological dice. Did I understand properly what you were trying to ask? Thank you for the answers, and yes I'm well aware of what I'm asking. | ||
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
On April 04 2012 08:57 a176 wrote: so wtf is the point of it all if you can just manufacture yourself to be 'as beautiful as possible', perhaps especially in the case of transgendered individuals? That's one of the reasons why pageants are kinda a load of crap. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 05 2012 01:28 Deadeight wrote: That's one of the reasons why pageants are kinda a load of crap. I don't know. Why can't a pageant be a positive thing? I think the problem is mostly that they're generally traditional events about what sort of girl most represents traditional feminine qualities, organized by people like Donald Trump. But what if they were way more inclusive, accepting all sorts of types of fashion, genders, gave the participants more freedom to be genuine etc. I mean, I think it could be nice. Although not something I would watch ever. I think people can be kinda thoughtless about this sometimes, acting as if looks and beauty should be repressed because of how it makes no rational sense and it only leads to discrimination etc. I know that's more of a strawman and nobody would seriously defend that, but I think it's implied sometimes. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On April 05 2012 01:28 Deadeight wrote: That's one of the reasons why pageants are kinda a load of crap. That's one reason why I don't like the idea of beauty pageants in general. Along with that goes my opinion that, since there's always been this uproar in society about how we're turning girls into sex objects by how we depict them in the media, shouldn't girls be the ones to stop... you know, dressing scantily and then having a bunch of guys vote on which one makes them drool the most? :p And if they go to lengths to continue making themselves look as barbie-like as possible, isn't that just making it worse? As far as the transgendered stuff goes, I just had a lesson in my Anthropology class yesterday that went over the differences in biological sex and gender and all the issues that go along with people who don't have those in alignment, and I'd never really thought about that/taken it into consideration before. I blame society for that, but now that I've had my eyes opened a bit to it (not to all of it, obviously - I'm sure I'm still clueless) I feel for people who deal with those issues. It's gotta be so hard. I've never been that sympathetic with transgendered people in the past, but... I think I should change that, it's not their fault. But on topic, it's probably fair that this person was not allowed to compete. For the record though, she looks good  | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On April 04 2012 16:50 Ewic wrote: In my opinion, she should not be allowed to compete. If you are born a male, you're male. Now, if I were to meet him face-to-face, I would respect him and refer to him as a "she", but in my eyes, he's still a man. And that is why, since the beauty pageant is female-only, I would not let him compete. On a side note of a similar topic, something I thought of... If in the future, there was a way to turn humans into other animals like dogs, and there were still dog pageants/contests, I don't think letting that human-into-dog person should be allowed to compete. P.S. This is my opinion, don't get mad if you disagree please... I'm not looking for an argument or discussion... Great way to expand your knowledge! Throw your opinion out then say you don't want it challenged. I'm sure everyone can learn a lot with this method. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
http://www.buzzfeed.com/amyodell/donald-trump-expects-to-let-transgender-women-from This week, Miss Universe revoked Jenna Talackova's disqualification from Canada's pageant for being transgender. Talackova is not only hot, but also evidently has the sort of charisma and inner drive for which pageant contestants are supposed to be most celebrated: with Gloria Allred's help, she's fighting for a rule that would allow transgender contestants in any country to compete in the pageant, not just those who are naturally born women, as the rule states. This morning Donald Trump, who owns the organization, called Katie Couric to talk about Talackova on "Good Morning America." He gloated about the worldwide attention the story has brought to his pageant, took a dig at Gloria Allred, and said that while pageant officials were leaning toward opening the competition up to people who weren't naturally born women "we haven’t made that decision yet." And he added another (arguably condescending) remark about how Talackova should focus on winning the pageant rather than her campaign to get the rule changed. Well at this point, plenty of people not including him are surely more of a fan of her fancy pageant talking than her fancy pageant walking. | ||
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Alay
United States660 Posts
On April 04 2012 15:54 ampson wrote: The uglier side of people on TL is showing. Every 3rd or 4th post is "Oh, these pageants are stupid anyways," or "They allow people who have had cosmetic surgery in? Disgusting." Some people think starcraft is stupid and a bad thing that shouldn't exist. We don't like it when they shit on what we enjoy, so how about we show some goddamn common decency and respect what these girls enjoy. ^ Agreed On April 04 2012 15:54 ampson wrote: In addition, for a group of people who labels themselves as "open minded" or "progressive" y'all sure are intolerant of other people's views. A guy earlier got banned just for saying "he." Is it that difficult to think that one might think that someone who was born male is a male, and should be identified as "he?" Because the views are often knee jerk reactions, and are not drawn out to their logical ends. If someone looks like a gender commonly looks (in this case, lets say male), feels they are a male, lives their daily life as a male, and socially interacts as a male, why on earth would you insist on calling them female? Because of their genitals? Do you examine the genitals of everyone you meet TO MAKE SURE they're actually what they say they are? What if they've had surgery? Do you ask everyone you talk to for a birth certificate to prove they were born the gender they live as? What about those that have an intersexed condition, deformed genitals, or some other condition? Do you call them "it"? At what point do you go from blindly calling someone something based exclusively on their birth genitals and nothing but that, to actually accepting that the person you're discussing is actually a person, and not a specific pair of genitals at birth? It's not difficult to think that some people still swear by this ideology--because they're a dime a dozen. These people never really think through their "opinionated beliefs" to the practical ends, nor do they often realize that they're accomplishing nothing more than being an asshole. On April 04 2012 15:54 ampson wrote: It's not blatantly offensive, and it is not intended to be. To you it's not--or, maybe it is? Would you be offended if everywhere you went, people called you by the wrong gender pronoun? What if everyone INSISTED you were that gender? What if anytime you tried to say "but I'm clearly not!" they gave you a whole bunch of shit to try and push you down and make you the way they "believe" you are? Wouldn't that suck? Maybe you say it wouldn't phase you. Try doing it for 5 years, then let me know if it still doesn't bug you at all. On April 04 2012 15:54 ampson wrote: I think that it is kind of silly to demand that society addresses you a certain way if you are would clearly not normally be addressed that way. Saying that you are the other sex when you do not appear to be or are not actually is just not true, and you can't blame people for seeing what's there. It's like if someone was 5'4" (163cm for the rest of the world) and they demanded that you call them 6' tall (183cm) all of the time. No matter what they believe, it is simply a lot to ask of others to overlook what is there to accommodate your beliefs. It's not wrong that you have these beliefs, but you must understand that you can't take offense to those who don't quite understand what is going on. You have to think of everyone here, not only the transgendered. Why wouldn't you normally be addressed that way? If the girl from this pageant went to the grocery store, the cashier would most call her ma'am when asking if it'll be credit or cash. If this woman was walking down the street, and dropped something, you most certainly would pick it up and say "Miss, I think you dropped this." She looks so unmistakably female that it's insanity to believe that she doesn't pass flawlessly. News flash, there's extremely masculine "female born" women out there, and they still get the common respect of correct pronouns. No, I do blame people that look as this woman and say "But she's a man! She was born a man, and even though she doesn't look like one, I MUST call her 'he' because that is what she was BORN and that's ALL that counts!" They're being irrational with their beliefs and doing it simply to hurt. It's not even accommodating beliefs, it's simple practicality. People think transsexual and they think some hideous inbetween person, or the old "man in a dress" stereotype--while yes, some trans people are visible when they're at a rough stage in between, the majority of them blend in just fine, and no one is the wiser. For example: The woman in this pageant--if she didn't say she was trans, no one would have a clue. So yeah, people still try to be assholes and insist that they use the wrong pronouns, but then you have the intelligent, rational, and/or compassionate people that get informed that it's extremely offensive, and they respect the identity of other people. There's a great post right in the start of the thread that explains in detail the difference between gender and sex, and why one should respect another person--if people choose to overlook that and still try to insist their closed minded knee jerk beliefs, then fuck them, they haven't walked half a foot in my shoes. On April 04 2012 15:54 ampson wrote: It's also quite silly to enter a contest which clearly states that it is only for naturally born females (sex not gender) when you yourself are not one and then have people complain about why you were disqualified. It is fine, however, to discuss the merits of the rule in the first place and possibly get it overturned (as has been done). But when this first happened, people were saying that the pageant had no right to do this when it clearly did. Private companies can choose whoever they want to compete in their events or receive their charities or whatever. Ugh. Just a few thoughts on the situation. To that, I can agree though. While I think it's a dick move specifically trying to alienate trans people, it's their pageant, their rules, and she lied. Lying under a contract is a really really stupid move, and she deserved to get kicked from it. They apparently let her back in, but I sincerely hope that they removed the rule first, and didn't just make an exception for her. | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
sex = the male or female specific organs you were born with gender= how you identify yourself regardless of sexual organs? Transgender people are "born this way" where they may have a male or female body, but in their minds they truly are the opposite sex so they have surgeries so they can look more like the sex they identify with? My question is: How can you determine if a person truly was "born this way" as opposed to someone who just decided they wanted to be transgender? Are there some people who weren't really "born this way" and just decided over time to switch to the opposite sex and have the surgery? Would a person who wasn't "born this way" but had the operations to look more like a female be allowed to compete, or is there a burden of proof to show that you really were "born this way." Also, if a person is capable of not being "born this way" but can still chose to have sex change operations and fall under the umbrella of "acceptability", should society welcome people like this guy who wants to be known as "Cat"? If a person who is not "born this way" but chooses to take on the appearance and identity of the opposite sex is not the same and should not be allowed to compete, then there should be some kind of way to scientifically determine those who were "born this way" as opposed to those were not "born this way." However, if it doesn't matter, then technically "Cat" should be allowed to compete in "cat" competitions, right? | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 04 2012 16:50 Ewic wrote: In my opinion, she should not be allowed to compete. If you are born a male, you're male. Now, if I were to meet him face-to-face, I would respect him and refer to him as a "she", but in my eyes, he's still a man. And that is why, since the beauty pageant is female-only, I would not let him compete. On a side note of a similar topic, something I thought of... If in the future, there was a way to turn humans into other animals like dogs, and there were still dog pageants/contests, I don't think letting that human-into-dog person should be allowed to compete. P.S. This is my opinion, don't get mad if you disagree please... I'm not looking for an argument or discussion... It's not an opinion, however. You're wrong (I'm pretty sure at least) factually. Pronouns such as him/her are specific to gender, NOT sex. You can google it, I did for quite a while and no matter how you look at it, pronouns always refer to gender, not sex. And gender is different than sex. To everyone that's saying "respect my opinion" I just flat out disagree. There's no reason to respect a wrong opinion. Just like if you have an opinion that the world is flat.... that's just me. If I'm wrong about pronouns not being gender specific, than forgive me, but I'm pretty sure that's how it is. On April 05 2012 03:47 Joedaddy wrote: My question is: How can you determine if a person truly was "born this way" as opposed to someone who just decided they wanted to be transgender? Are there some people who weren't really "born this way" and just decided over time to switch to the opposite sex and have the surgery? Would a person who wasn't "born this way" but had the operations to look more like a female be allowed to compete, or is there a burden of proof to show that you really were "born this way." I bet you couldn't find a single person if you tried that "decided" to want to be transgender. Just as I would bet you wouldn't be able to find a single person that "decided" to be homosexual. I think out of every homosexual person I know (and I know this is only "related" in the sense that it has to do with lifestyles not of the norm and not generally accepted in society, as homosexuals are usually fine with their actual sex and gender), every single one has said they would not have chosen to be gay. That doesn't mean they aren't proud or what not, but to actually want or decide to be something that is so despised by society is an absolutely preposterous notion. | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
I bet you couldn't find a single person if you tried that "decided" to want to be transgender. Just as I would bet you wouldn't be able to find a single person that "decided" to be homosexual. I think out of every homosexual person I know (and I know this is only "related" in the sense that it has to do with lifestyles not of the norm and not generally accepted in society, as homosexuals are usually fine with their actual sex and gender), every single one has said they would not have chosen to be gay. That doesn't mean they aren't proud or what not, but to actually want or decide to be something that is so despised by society is an absolutely preposterous notion. I'm not suggesting that someone wanting to be transgendered is a common occurrence. Transgender people are already quite rare relative to the world population, right? However, I certainly don't feel that it is out of the realm of possibility, and I don't think its fair to wave a hand of dismissal at the questions it raises. | ||
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pirsq
Australia145 Posts
The very definition of a beauty pageant is a judgement of individuals based on essentially arbitrary criteria. What is the societal significance of one's ability to strut in a swimsuit? How does one's ability to answer judges' questions relate to beauty in any way? Which skills count as talent and which don't? If you don't want to be judged on the arbitrary rule of whether or not you were born with a penis, then why are you fighting for the right to be judged on a whole host of other arbitrary rules? | ||
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Alay
United States660 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:47 Joedaddy wrote: So from what I've read this is my understanding~ sex = the male or female specific organs you were born with gender= how you identify yourself regardless of sexual organs? Transgender people are "born this way" where they may have a male or female body, but in their minds they truly are the opposite sex so they have surgeries so they can look more like the sex they identify with? My question is: How can you determine if a person truly was "born this way" as opposed to someone who just decided they wanted to be transgender? Are there some people who weren't really "born this way" and just decided over time to switch to the opposite sex and have the surgery? Would a person who wasn't "born this way" but had the operations to look more like a female be allowed to compete, or is there a burden of proof to show that you really were "born this way." Also, if a person is capable of not being "born this way" but can still chose to have sex change operations and fall under the umbrella of "acceptability", should society welcome people like this guy who wants to be known as "Cat"? If a person who is not "born this way" but chooses to take on the appearance and identity of the opposite sex is not the same and should not be allowed to compete, then there should be some kind of way to scientifically determine those who were "born this way" as opposed to those were not "born this way." However, if it doesn't matter, then technically "Cat" should be allowed to compete in "cat" competitions, right? I expanded on this here, is response to another poster: On April 04 2012 08:54 Alay wrote: The best answer I can give is that you kind of just "know". It'd probably be next to impossible to describe with words (and cisgendered people can experience this too, when posed the question "without using physical attributes as evidence, how are you sure you're male/female?") however evidence that it actually exists comes in the form of extreme depression revolving around feeling gender incongruent (gender dysphoria) to the extent that it has extreme interference with daily life (gender identity disorder.) It's only after an individual has expressed these for a long period of time under the supervision of a gender specialist that basic hormonal treatment will be prescribed--and only after two years in most cases of living full time as the 'target' gender will genital surgeries be permitted for those that seek it (which required in most cases two letters of recommendation from different gender specialists) so it's hardly something that can be done on a whim. Further, I think someone that wasn't very serious would realize very quickly that there's only pain in being trans, and thus pretending to be trans (and actually transitioning) would be a pretty stupid idea. Again, most people only transition because the alternative is suicide from the intensity of their depression. Finally, I don't so much think it's a case of the universe getting it wrong, so much as it's just a physiological phenomenon, brought on by a roll on the biological dice. Did I understand properly what you were trying to ask? tl;dr: It sucks huge horse nuts to be trans, if someone was faking it, they wouldn't fake it for long. If they actually DID go the whole nine yards while they weren't actually trans, they'd end up with Gender Identity Disorder (in the body of the reassigned sex, but still having the same gender that was congruent with their original sex)... so in a sense, they'd "become trans" at that point. Generally, people that go through the standardized process as per WPATH are more or less guaranteed to not be faking. The few "regretters" that I know of used wealth to circumvent those standards on a whim (ie: directly after a divorce, etc.) The irony is that they usually end up being the loudest, wanting to say that because they made a bad decision, that all trans people are faking. You can read the newest edition of the WPATH Standards of Care here: http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 05 2012 04:01 Joedaddy wrote: I'm not suggesting that someone wanting to be transgendered is a common occurrence. Transgender people are already quite rare relative to the world population, right? However, I certainly don't feel that it is out of the realm of possibility, and I don't think its fair to wave a hand of dismissal at the questions it raises. It may not be out of the realm of possibility, but when you're talking maybe 1/1,000 of the existing transgenders, you're gonna reach a pretty small number. Like I said, almost no homosexuals (at least anecdotally, although I know a ton as I live in California where it's more open/accepted) choose to be that way. And estimates suggest that roughly 10% of all males are homosexual and 5% of all females are. Numbers are far more staggering than you'd realize otherwise. It's just repressed so heavily in most areas, namely Christian areas. | ||
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liberal
1116 Posts
If I take the example in the OP and imagine transplanting my brain into a woman's body, I would consider myself a lesbian woman. I can't change my sexual orientation, but I can change the behaviors commonly associated with the opposite sex. For example, wearing a dress, wearing make up, etc. I'm not saying it would come naturally, but it is learned behavior, not biological behavior. Gender roles and identity are determined by society and so they cannot be innate. What does it even mean to "feel" like a man or a woman, except to say "I feel like behaving in the ways that society has established for men/women because I identity with them." Self-identification is ALWAYS sociological in nature, not biological. If you raised a child with asexual robots, then the child would have no gender identity and no concept of gender at all. | ||
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DreamChaser
1649 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On April 05 2012 04:09 liberal wrote: Gender is a human construct, so it's not really possible to biologically "feel" like a gender in my opinion. It is possible to biologically feel an attraction to one sex or the other, but since gender is defined sociologically, then "gender identity" as we describe it is necessarily a sociological phenomenon, not a physical one. If I take the example in the OP and imagine transplanting my brain into a woman's body, I would consider myself a lesbian woman. I can't change my sexual orientation, but I can change the behaviors commonly associated with the opposite sex. For example, wearing a dress, wearing make up, etc. I'm not saying it would come naturally, but it is learned behavior, not biological behavior. Gender roles and identity are determined by society and so they cannot be innate. What does it even mean to "feel" like a man or a woman, except to say "I feel like behaving in the ways that society has established for men/women because I identity with them." Self-identification is ALWAYS sociological in nature, not biological. If you raised a child with asexual robots, then the child would have no gender identity and no concept of gender at all. I completely 100% agree. You associate with a set of behaviours commonly used by a particular biological sex but I understand this because of my understanding of gender. Its a difficult construct to explain to lay people so expressing it such as "feeling" like a gender can be an easier way of getting the same concept across for someone who isn't well versed in gender studies. On April 05 2012 04:13 DreamChaser wrote: I didn't know reconstructive surgery was this good, to be honest this scares me that a natural born man can actually look and live the life of a female. Obviously i won't be asking every girl i date if they where a male before but its like a little voice in the back of my head that just kind of scares me. Maybe i am just a bigot, but i do think they should let them compete i mean this woman has been living the life of a female for what more than 10 years? This scariness you feel is just you learning about the world and having your cognitive schema being confronted. In the end just date who you want, get to know them and if you care for them nothing else matters. If my gf somehow magically was trans I wouldn't care. I really wouldn't because I know what she's like and I care for her. Its really that simple. Do what makes you happy. | ||
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