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In order for this topic to stay open, keep in mind the following: - Understand the difference between sex and gender- Please be respectful to those involved, particularly the transgendered - If you post without reason, or do not add to the discussion, you will be met with moderator action - If you don't know which pronoun is appropriate please feel free to read the topic and inform yourself before posting. We're all for debate but this is a sensitive subject for many people. |
Question: anyone knows if born females are accepted at transgender beauty pageants if they wish to compete? I tried with Google but couldn't find the answer.
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On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her.
Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this.
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i honestly dont know the answer to this so i would appreciate if anyone has read more into it could answer. is she 'medically' female? i mean i support her choosing to be a female, and she sure looks like a woman and stuff. im just curious if theres anything medically male about her anymore? or if she is over 50% female etc? basically is there any possible rule they could of had previously that would eliminate her? because if she is more female than male in every sense then this whole thing just confuses me greatly.
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On April 04 2012 08:03 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:17 frogrubdown wrote:
I'm hoping someone in this thread can clarify a point about gender that I've never heard clarified.
Does, say, 'the female gender' designate those social and psychological characteristics that happen to be associated with the female sex in modern western societies, or does it designate whatever social and psychological characteristics happen to be associated with the female sex in the culture you are in?
To differentiate between the two, imagine a society wherein the sex-roles are reversed. Biological males are expected to do things that biological females here are expected to do and vice versa. In such a society, would a "butch" biological female also have the female gender, or the masculine gender?
If you're familiar with linguistics and philosophy of language, you can rephrase my question as being about whether or not 'the female gender' designates a property rigidly. I think I understand what you're asking, and I'd just say that "butch" women identify as women, whilst trans men (birth-assigned female, transitioned to male) identify as male.
By "butch biological female" I meant someone born biologically female who in our society has the male gender. Does this person have the same gender in every society, or would the gender depend on which sex was associated with the psychological and social states the person exhibits in the society in question?
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I am so disappointed. When will especially the heavily christian influenced american society get over their "right" way to be?
It was her decision, she is what she is and by that beautiful what is the point?
Actually is there an official statement refering to rules which is actually reasonable? I still believe it is not but that's another story.
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I thought this rather tragic story was pretty relevent to the thread, and the current discussion on gender identification.
For the tldr the story, it basically comes down to a baby boy under going a botched circumcision has to have his penis removed. The parents decide to raise him as a girl, because of 'theory of Gender Neutrality'; that gender identity developed primarily as a result of social learning from early childhood and could be changed with the appropriate behavioral interventions. Later in life the boy identified as a boy despite being brought up as a girl and went through a lot of trauma and confusion and eventually killed himself.
Gender identity is seperate from how society treats you I think. It really doesn't matter how you are brought up. I think it is a completely seperate and more complex thing than "well if society just excepted that boys can do things more feminine and girls can do things more masculine then there would be no need for gender reassignment surgury, these people would just be happy"
I know I would feel pretty weird if I looked like the opposite sex to what I felt myself as being, It would just be plain wrong...
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To hell with it ill do her it him whatever it is if it looks like that.
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On April 04 2012 08:06 Revelatus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this.
Maybe it's because 99% of people don't "choose" their sex. And half the thread is saying you can choose "gender" and the other half is saying you can't.
This thread is going nowhere because no one has succeeded in actually defining what gender even means in a way anyone can agree on. Either it's psychological, sociological, or biological. It can't be all three at the same time.
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Can't help but feel bad for the girl, all judgements aside this must be absolutely crushing for her... It probably meant a whole lot to her you know, like if she won and all wouldn't that mean she's a good female? However she did take a rather extreme risk in joining a competition like this.
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On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that.
What I am asking is, is there a sound epistemological justification for someone of a particular sex to say, "I'm actually the other gender, I desire for my physical appearance to reflect that". Obviously there are people who make the claim, and strongly (I believe you're one such person), that they were born the wrong sex, but how do they know? Is the psychological disconnect a genuine instance of "the universe got it wrong", and if not, then what? Cisgendered people are not quite the point: they aren't challenging their birth sex (although I get what you're saying).
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On April 04 2012 07:42 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:36 Deadeight wrote:
An off-hand point I made earlier just actually made me think a bit.
If someone is born without a womb, would that make them appear visibly slimmer? I don't really know the size of a womb, but I imagine it would. You can fit a baby in that thing. Have you ever seen a pregnant woman? If so I don't understand your reasoning.
No I haven't. Just saw one on google images and that solves the issue, thanks very much for the great post. Fucking brilliant.
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United States5162 Posts
On April 04 2012 08:23 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:06 Revelatus wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this. Maybe it's because 99% of people don't "choose" their sex. And half the thread is saying you can choose "gender" and the other half is saying you can't. This thread is going nowhere because no one has succeeded in actually defining what gender even means in a way anyone can agree on. Either it's psychological, sociological, or biological. It can't be all three at the same time.
I disagree. I think it's clearly influenced by all three.
Hormones certainly play a role in how we act and feel, and just as importantly, how we develop. I don't think I need to explain the influence testosterone has and how it influences male development. Social norms defines the exact boundaries of how males and females act, which are based upon biological behavior, but are somewhat arbitrary. For example, boys roughhousing is considered 'normal' and is also due to biology. Clothing options are entirely societal. And a person's psychology is a catch 22 of nature/nurture debate which kind of sums up this whole debate.
And the difference between a butch lesbian and a transgendar male is how they see themselves. You can't choose that just like you can't choose if you're homosexual or not.
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I feel so sorry for him. it must a tough thing to go through.
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I wonder how many transgendered folks have gone through with the op and whatnot, and just been like:
+ Show Spoiler +
User was warned for this post, and a bunch of other rude posts in this thread.
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On April 04 2012 08:23 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:06 Revelatus wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this. Maybe it's because 99% of people don't "choose" their sex. And half the thread is saying you can choose "gender" and the other half is saying you can't. This thread is going nowhere because no one has succeeded in actually defining what gender even means in a way anyone can agree on. Either it's psychological, sociological, or biological. It can't be all three at the same time.
Of course it’s all three. Since when is any complex aspect of being human not connected to all three of those to one degree or another?
Our minds are born in one way, with some different limitations and capacity and traits unique to us. But minds don’t remain static from that point, and they change from chemicals, internal processes of thought as well as responses to external sociological factors.
The only thing in question on the subject of gender, in all the complicated forms that arguments tend to take, is the proportions of the three. Which, undeniably, are not identical from person to person. So in that sense, yes, since you seem to be seeking some black and white answer that doesn’t exist, stop looking, or start exploring the shades of gray that you've seemingly been completely dismissing.
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On April 04 2012 08:27 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that. What I am asking is, is there a sound epistemological justification for someone of a particular sex to say, "I'm actually the other gender, I desire for my physical appearance to reflect that". Obviously there are people who make the claim, and strongly (I believe you're one such person), that they were born the wrong sex, but how do they know? Is the psychological disconnect a genuine instance of "the universe got it wrong", and if not, then what? Cisgendered people are not quite the point: they aren't challenging their birth sex (although I get what you're saying).
The best answer I can give is that you kind of just "know". It'd probably be next to impossible to describe with words (and cisgendered people can experience this too, when posed the question "without using physical attributes as evidence, how are you sure you're male/female?") however evidence that it actually exists comes in the form of extreme depression revolving around feeling gender incongruent (gender dysphoria) to the extent that it has extreme interference with daily life (gender identity disorder.)
It's only after an individual has expressed these for a long period of time under the supervision of a gender specialist that basic hormonal treatment will be prescribed--and only after two years in most cases of living full time as the 'target' gender will genital surgeries be permitted for those that seek it (which required in most cases two letters of recommendation from different gender specialists) so it's hardly something that can be done on a whim.
Further, I think someone that wasn't very serious would realize very quickly that there's only pain in being trans, and thus pretending to be trans (and actually transitioning) would be a pretty stupid idea. Again, most people only transition because the alternative is suicide from the intensity of their depression.
Finally, I don't so much think it's a case of the universe getting it wrong, so much as it's just a physiological phenomenon, brought on by a roll on the biological dice.
Did I understand properly what you were trying to ask?
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On April 04 2012 03:11 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 03:05 a176 wrote:On April 04 2012 03:02 Deadeight wrote:
Unless it's a contest where any cosmetic surgery is banned, which I could understand, I think it's the wrong decision. cosmetic surgery isn't banned in these competitions? It isn't banned.
so wtf is the point of it all if you can just manufacture yourself to be 'as beautiful as possible', perhaps especially in the case of transgendered individuals?
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On April 04 2012 08:37 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:23 liberal wrote:On April 04 2012 08:06 Revelatus wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this. Maybe it's because 99% of people don't "choose" their sex. And half the thread is saying you can choose "gender" and the other half is saying you can't. This thread is going nowhere because no one has succeeded in actually defining what gender even means in a way anyone can agree on. Either it's psychological, sociological, or biological. It can't be all three at the same time. I disagree. I think it's clearly influenced by all three. Hormones certainly play a role in how we act and feel, and just as importantly, how we develop. I don't think I need to explain the influence testosterone has and how it influences male development. Social norms defines the exact boundaries of how males and females act, which are based upon biological behavior, but are somewhat arbitrary. For example, boys roughhousing is considered 'normal' and is also due to biology. Clothing options are entirely societal. And a person's psychology is a catch 22 of nature/nurture debate which kind of sums up this whole debate. And the difference between a butch lesbian and a transgendar male is how they see themselves. You can't choose that just like you can't choose if you're homosexual or not.
On April 04 2012 08:49 Zaragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:23 liberal wrote:On April 04 2012 08:06 Revelatus wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this. Maybe it's because 99% of people don't "choose" their sex. And half the thread is saying you can choose "gender" and the other half is saying you can't. This thread is going nowhere because no one has succeeded in actually defining what gender even means in a way anyone can agree on. Either it's psychological, sociological, or biological. It can't be all three at the same time. Of course it’s all three. Since when is any complex aspect of being human not connected to all three of those to one degree or another? Our minds are born in one way, with some different limitations and capacity and traits unique to us. But minds don’t remain static from that point, and they change from chemicals, internal processes of thought as well as responses to external sociological factors. The only thing in question on the subject of gender, in all the complicated forms that arguments tend to take, is the proportions of the three. Which, undeniably, are not identical from person to person. So in that sense, yes, since you seem to be seeking some black and white answer that doesn’t exist, stop looking, or start exploring the shades of gray that you've seemingly been completely dismissing.
At the end of the day, gender is just a word. It's not some objective concept that is independent of language. Like all words, it's meaning depends entirely on how we choose to define it.
It makes no sense to define it in a way that can make the gender distinction contradictory. In other words, there needs to be a defining characteristic or distinction in order for the word to have any meaning at all.
And so the defining characteristic either has to be determined according to what the person says, or what society says, or what an empirical/scientific observation says. You can't have all three contradicting each other in a single concept or it's not even a meaningful concept.
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On April 04 2012 08:27 Gnosis wrote:
What I am asking is, is there a sound epistemological justification for someone of a particular sex to say, "I'm actually the other gender, I desire for my physical appearance to reflect that". Obviously there are people who make the claim, and strongly (I believe you're one such person), that they were born the wrong sex, but how do they know? Is the psychological disconnect a genuine instance of "the universe got it wrong", and if not, then what? Cisgendered people are not quite the point: they aren't challenging their birth sex (although I get what you're saying).
I wonder the same thing.
I also wonder if anyone would seek to change their sex through surgery if there were no stereotypically male or female traits or preferences. If sex was completely dissociated from any cultural expectations of personality or behavior, I don't think that anyone would feel a need to change their sex.
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On April 04 2012 09:00 liberal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:37 Myles wrote:On April 04 2012 08:23 liberal wrote:On April 04 2012 08:06 Revelatus wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this. Maybe it's because 99% of people don't "choose" their sex. And half the thread is saying you can choose "gender" and the other half is saying you can't. This thread is going nowhere because no one has succeeded in actually defining what gender even means in a way anyone can agree on. Either it's psychological, sociological, or biological. It can't be all three at the same time. I disagree. I think it's clearly influenced by all three. Hormones certainly play a role in how we act and feel, and just as importantly, how we develop. I don't think I need to explain the influence testosterone has and how it influences male development. Social norms defines the exact boundaries of how males and females act, which are based upon biological behavior, but are somewhat arbitrary. For example, boys roughhousing is considered 'normal' and is also due to biology. Clothing options are entirely societal. And a person's psychology is a catch 22 of nature/nurture debate which kind of sums up this whole debate. And the difference between a butch lesbian and a transgendar male is how they see themselves. You can't choose that just like you can't choose if you're homosexual or not. Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 08:49 Zaragon wrote:On April 04 2012 08:23 liberal wrote:On April 04 2012 08:06 Revelatus wrote:On April 03 2012 05:02 JOJOsc2news wrote:On April 03 2012 03:41 StimFesT wrote:
I seriously feel wierd when I look at the picture and know that she/he was born as a regular male. But she/he is actually beautiful Wow... stumbling over the he/she awkwardness in this post. She chose to be a woman, just call her her. Completely agree, I don't understand people's apprehension when it comes to this. Maybe it's because 99% of people don't "choose" their sex. And half the thread is saying you can choose "gender" and the other half is saying you can't. This thread is going nowhere because no one has succeeded in actually defining what gender even means in a way anyone can agree on. Either it's psychological, sociological, or biological. It can't be all three at the same time. Of course it’s all three. Since when is any complex aspect of being human not connected to all three of those to one degree or another? Our minds are born in one way, with some different limitations and capacity and traits unique to us. But minds don’t remain static from that point, and they change from chemicals, internal processes of thought as well as responses to external sociological factors. The only thing in question on the subject of gender, in all the complicated forms that arguments tend to take, is the proportions of the three. Which, undeniably, are not identical from person to person. So in that sense, yes, since you seem to be seeking some black and white answer that doesn’t exist, stop looking, or start exploring the shades of gray that you've seemingly been completely dismissing. At the end of the day, gender is just a word. It's not some objective concept that is independent of language. Like all words, it's meaning depends entirely on how we choose to define it. It makes no sense to define it in a way that can make the gender distinction contradictory. In other words, there needs to be a defining characteristic or distinction in order for the word to have any meaning at all. And so the defining characteristic either has to be determined according to what the person says, or what society says, or what an empirical/scientific observation says. You can't have all three contradicting each other in a single concept or it's not even a meaningful concept.
I would say you're looking at it too simplistically. You can't just sort of claim that those concepts are all "contradictory". This makes no sense. In any case, you need to read up on neurobiology, then appreciate how interdigitated your "biology" is with your "psychology" and how these influence your "social" interactions, which produces feedback that in turn influences your psychology/biology, and so on. Gender transcends sex in that it depends on the social context. If you were in a vacuum, then you could characterize yourself only on your own observation of your biological characteristics -- your "sex".
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EPT![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-im2F-ziV0sk/T1UDzWJ3XKI/AAAAAAAAA0E/RgJC0VBqQCc/s1600/ive-made-a-huge-mistake.gif)
