Transgender Miss Universe Canada Disqualified - Page 16

On April 04 2012 06:37 liberal wrote:

If you completely isolated an infant at birth and raised them with asexual robots, do you think the child would "know" they are male or female?

On April 04 2012 06:41 Crushinator wrote:


Ofcourse he doesn't. But just because biological components use environmental inputs it does not disqualify them from being biological.

On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:
Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant.

Lets give this a run down, shall we?

• Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
  
• Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
  
• This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
  
• Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
  
• Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
  

That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs.
Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed.
You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics.
You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence.
And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP.

Fun, isn't it?

So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free.

/rantoff

Regardless, onto the actual story:
She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid.
They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with.
I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around.
It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud.

On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:
Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant.

Lets give this a run down, shall we?

• Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
  
• Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
  
• This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
  
• Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
  
• Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
  

That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs.
Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed.
You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics.
You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence.
And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP.

Fun, isn't it?

So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free.

/rantoff

Regardless, onto the actual story:
She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid.
They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with.
I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around.
It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud.

On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:


As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)?

On April 03 2012 19:44 Iyerbeth wrote:
...I ask again then, what benefit is there in you deciding, in the face of the evidence, that everyone must be as you are - with the gender identity and biological sex being in allignment? It serves no practical, health, safety, or legal benefit and insulting people should hardly be seen as a positive (and when you intentionally call any woman "he" it is insulting).

Transsexuals exist, it sucks, but it's not your place to tell them who they are what they must be. it is not your place to insult them or to decide that all women must be defined as sex objects. Your personal comfort on a matter has no bearing on the actual gender identity of other human beings.

On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:


Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare.
Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>?

Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct.

Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that.

On April 04 2012 07:17 Megabuster123 wrote:

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. Can you explain to me the difference between sex and gender? What does it even mean to think you're a gender that you're not? You prefer the social roles assigned to that gender? You don't like the way he or her sounds when ascribed to you?

I don't understand how the entire notion of transgendered isn't just a psychological problem...>_>

On April 04 2012 07:36 Deadeight wrote:
An off-hand point I made earlier just actually made me think a bit.

If someone is born without a womb, would that make them appear visibly slimmer? I don't really know the size of a womb, but I imagine it would. You can fit a baby in that thing.

On April 04 2012 07:17 frogrubdown wrote:
I'm hoping someone in this thread can clarify a point about gender that I've never heard clarified.

Does, say, 'the female gender' designate those social and psychological characteristics that happen to be associated with the female sex in modern western societies, or does it designate whatever social and psychological characteristics happen to be associated with the female sex in the culture you are in?

To differentiate between the two, imagine a society wherein the sex-roles are reversed. Biological males are expected to do things that biological females here are expected to do and vice versa. In such a society, would a "butch" biological female also have the female gender, or the masculine gender?

If you're familiar with linguistics and philosophy of language, you can rephrase my question as being about whether or not 'the female gender' designates a property rigidly.

On April 04 2012 07:17 frogrubdown wrote:
I'm hoping someone in this thread can clarify a point about gender that I've never heard clarified.

Does, say, 'the female gender' designate those social and psychological characteristics that happen to be associated with the female sex in modern western societies, or does it designate whatever social and psychological characteristics happen to be associated with the female sex in the culture you are in?

To differentiate between the two, imagine a society wherein the sex-roles are reversed. Biological males are expected to do things that biological females here are expected to do and vice versa. In such a society, would a "butch" biological female also have the female gender, or the masculine gender?

If you're familiar with linguistics and philosophy of language, you can rephrase my question as being about whether or not 'the female gender' designates a property rigidly.