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In order for this topic to stay open, keep in mind the following: - Understand the difference between sex and gender- Please be respectful to those involved, particularly the transgendered - If you post without reason, or do not add to the discussion, you will be met with moderator action - If you don't know which pronoun is appropriate please feel free to read the topic and inform yourself before posting. We're all for debate but this is a sensitive subject for many people. |
On April 04 2012 08:37 Kojak21 wrote:
I feel so sorry for him. it must a tough thing to go through.
Again, it is a tough thing, and a complicated issue, but referring to her as "him" is just plain disrespectful.
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Suppose there is some sort of "amazonian society" where woman were dominant and acted almost completely different from girls in societies we were used to... Does a transgender girl identify as a girl in this society in the same way as transgender girl in our normal society does? I feel like they're completely different and society actually does have something to do with it.
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Basically they did it to keep their sponsors and not alienate their viewers, with most of each group probably being uncomfortable waxing their carrot to someone that was formerly male, for whatever reason.
This is another one of those hot media stories where all the most opinionated people can yell at each other in some public forum or another, an excuse to flaunt either our "progressiveness," or our focus on "values."
Well, my 2 cents is as follows: Miss Universe/USA/AngolaWhatever/Whomever competitions are awful events where phony women gather to enable the more absurd gender stereotypes in Western culture. It's a shame this person transformed herself into a women just to imitate one of their more pathetic subcultures.
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On April 04 2012 09:28 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
It's a shame this person transformed herself into a women just to imitate one of their more pathetic subcultures.
Since she made her decision as a young child, I doubt that's "just" why she did it. In fact I doubt that factored into her choice at all.
Transgendered people may or may not conform to any given stereotype of the gender they identify with. It's the same as the fact that not every guy falls into a category of either "overmasculine frat boy" or "effeminate metrosexual".
People identify with a gender, and then they get on with their lives. They're not (usually) trying to make some grand social commentary. This one happens to like beauty pageants. So what.
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On April 04 2012 09:21 PhoenixLight wrote:
Suppose there is some sort of "amazonian society" where woman were dominant and acted almost completely different from girls in societies we were used to... Does a transgender girl identify as a girl in this society in the same way as transgender girl in our normal society does? I feel like they're completely different and society actually does have something to do with it.
From what I know the Transgendered person would still feel the desire to be of the other sex than the one they appear to be. The issue of being transgender is about the body and not about the society; if you are not comfortable in your body that will not change even if you are asked to do something you are comfortable with.
I believe people, not just in this thread but, in all walks of life misunderstand what it is to be transgendered. The transgendered person is not (necessarily) uncomfortable with the gender role provided by society; they are uncomfortable in their body. There are transgendered women who are also lesbians, transgendered men who identify as gay. The sex role is not the same as the gender of the person.
Another point I would make is in regards to the pronoun being particularly gendered. If you are unsure of which pronoun is appropriate and don't wish to offend you could also chose to use the genderless pronoun which is popular withing the LGBTQ community, instead of he or she the singular is ze and the particular (him or her) is zer.
As to the idea that these people chose to be transgendered; there is no choice in the gender you identify as. It is the same as your sexual orientation, from birth (or from early youth) you will Identify as a particular gender, a particular sexual orientation. I don't really know how to explain that knowledge to someone who hasn't experienced it; I'll do my best though.
Sorry for all of the assumptions in this, I'm not sure how else to do it. This explanation assumes you are a cis heterosexual male who has interacted sexually with a cis heterosexual female. If you are male and have been since birth you can remember your own comfortably with your sexual organs, since you were young you could look at your own sexual organs and think: that is part of me, part of my body. When you first interacted sexually with a girl you experienced a female sexual organ for the first time in your memory. At that time you (or at least I) couldn't understand what it would be like to have a female sexual organ. That would be a weird thought for you, to have a vagina where there 'should be' a penis. Hopefully that makes sense up until now. If you are a transgendered (MtF) person instead you would feel that you have a penis where there 'should be' a vagina; it would be as odd for you to have that penis as it would for me to have a vagina and you would be as uncomfortable in that body with that sexual organ (and everything that comes with it) as I would be in a female body.
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On April 04 2012 07:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:17 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. Can you explain to me the difference between sex and gender? What does it even mean to think you're a gender that you're not? You prefer the social roles assigned to that gender? You don't like the way he or her sounds when ascribed to you? I don't understand how the entire notion of transgendered isn't just a psychological problem...>_> I don't have any personal experience with this, but as far as I understand, people born physically as males feel psychologically like females, and vice versa. Essentially, they simply feel like they're in a body that is not "theirs", so to speak. It extends far beyond social roles; though, if it was just that, then your transgenderism would probably fall more to the lines of cross-dressing.
I don't understand how that makes sense. How can you feel like you're psychologically female or male, what does that even mean?
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United States7483 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:23 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2012 07:17 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. Can you explain to me the difference between sex and gender? What does it even mean to think you're a gender that you're not? You prefer the social roles assigned to that gender? You don't like the way he or her sounds when ascribed to you? I don't understand how the entire notion of transgendered isn't just a psychological problem...>_> I don't have any personal experience with this, but as far as I understand, people born physically as males feel psychologically like females, and vice versa. Essentially, they simply feel like they're in a body that is not "theirs", so to speak. It extends far beyond social roles; though, if it was just that, then your transgenderism would probably fall more to the lines of cross-dressing. I don't understand how that makes sense. How can you feel like you're psychologically female or male, what does that even mean?
Generally it means you feel like you belong better to the social norms surrounding the gender identity that you associate with. For example, in the United States, you may feel like you prefer to play with dolls and play house as a child, or you may feel 'motherly'. This isn't to say everyone experiences it this way (or even that a majority does, I lack the numbers), but the basic idea is that you don't feel like the norms that are applied to your biological sex should apply to you: it feels wrong.
Remember that gender is a social construct.
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On April 04 2012 11:23 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2012 07:17 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. Can you explain to me the difference between sex and gender? What does it even mean to think you're a gender that you're not? You prefer the social roles assigned to that gender? You don't like the way he or her sounds when ascribed to you? I don't understand how the entire notion of transgendered isn't just a psychological problem...>_> I don't have any personal experience with this, but as far as I understand, people born physically as males feel psychologically like females, and vice versa. Essentially, they simply feel like they're in a body that is not "theirs", so to speak. It extends far beyond social roles; though, if it was just that, then your transgenderism would probably fall more to the lines of cross-dressing. I don't understand how that makes sense. How can you feel like you're psychologically female or male, what does that even mean?
Made as simple as possible: Are you male? Are you comfortable in the outward sexuality of your body? if the answer to both of those questions is yes than you are psychologically male. Obviously there is more to it than this but, hopefully that helps.
Psychologically you identify as (I'm assuming, if I'm wrong correct me and I'll change this) a heterosexual male. That means that you feel that your sex is male and in terms of sexual orientation attracted to females. If you were attracted to men instead you would not be heterosexual even though that is what people would assume when looking at you. You would know that inside you felt differently than other people felt and that you were not what people assume you are. With gender it is the same thing, people see your sex (that is the physical properties with which we define the outward sexual appearance of a person) and assume that is the same as your gender; in many cases that is the case. In the case of a transgendered person those two are not the same and it is the goal of gender reassignment surgery to match the sex of a person to their gender.
I hope that made things clearer, re-reading it I'm not sure if it will. If there is anything I can clarify I will do my best.
Edited in because I think this matters a lot:
On April 04 2012 11:30 Whitewing wrote:
Generally it means you feel like you belong better to the social norms surrounding the gender identity that you associate with. For example, in the United States, you may feel like you prefer to play with dolls and play house as a child, or you may feel 'motherly'. This isn't to say everyone experiences it this way (or even that a majority does, I lack the numbers), but the basic idea is that you don't feel like the norms that are applied to your biological sex should apply to you: it feels wrong.
It is not just the norms which you don't feel fit you but also (and I think this is a key issue which is generally ignored in this thread) the body you live in. One is not simply uncomfortable with the assumptions which people would make on seeing your body, you are uncomfortable with that body itself.
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On April 04 2012 11:23 Megabuster123 wrote:
I don't understand how that makes sense. How can you feel like you're psychologically female or male, what does that even mean?
It's extremely hard to describe psychological issues to people who have never experienced it themselves. It's why people think depression is just someone being sad a lot.
Essentially, the body you're in just feels wrong.
On April 04 2012 11:30 Whitewing wrote:
Generally it means you feel like you belong better to the social norms surrounding the gender identity that you associate with. For example, in the United States, you may feel like you prefer to play with dolls and play house as a child, or you may feel 'motherly'. This isn't to say everyone experiences it this way (or even that a majority does, I lack the numbers), but the basic idea is that you don't feel like the norms that are applied to your biological sex should apply to you: it feels wrong.
This is fairly incorrect. If all you felt was social norms not applying to you, no doctor would ever agree to allow you to have gender reassignment surgery. I'm almost certain you need a psych evaluation before they'd consider it - though that may differ depending on where you live.
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I don't think the transgender issues should affect her eligibility, but I am bothered by the idea of the pageant promoting individuals who have undergone major appearance-altering surgery as a standard of beauty. I'd feel the same way about a biological female who had breast enhancement surgery / etc.
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this comp is dumb anyways there is a reason they aren't allowed to televise it here. These beauty pageants should really just be removed altogether.
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On April 04 2012 11:04 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 09:21 PhoenixLight wrote:
Suppose there is some sort of "amazonian society" where woman were dominant and acted almost completely different from girls in societies we were used to... Does a transgender girl identify as a girl in this society in the same way as transgender girl in our normal society does? I feel like they're completely different and society actually does have something to do with it. From what I know the Transgendered person would still feel the desire to be of the other sex than the one they appear to be. The issue of being transgender is about the body and not about the society; if you are not comfortable in your body that will not change even if you are asked to do something you are comfortable with. I believe people, not just in this thread but, in all walks of life misunderstand what it is to be transgendered. The transgendered person is not (necessarily) uncomfortable with the gender role provided by society; they are uncomfortable in their body. There are transgendered women who are also lesbians, transgendered men who identify as gay. The sex role is not the same as the gender of the person.
Another point I would make is in regards to the pronoun being particularly gendered. If you are unsure of which pronoun is appropriate and don't wish to offend you could also chose to use the genderless pronoun which is popular withing the LGBTQ community, instead of he or she the singular is ze and the particular (him or her) is zer. As to the idea that these people chose to be transgendered; there is no choice in the gender you identify as. It is the same as your sexual orientation, from birth (or from early youth) you will Identify as a particular gender, a particular sexual orientation. I don't really know how to explain that knowledge to someone who hasn't experienced it; I'll do my best though. Sorry for all of the assumptions in this, I'm not sure how else to do it. This explanation assumes you are a cis heterosexual male who has interacted sexually with a cis heterosexual female. If you are male and have been since birth you can remember your own comfortably with your sexual organs, since you were young you could look at your own sexual organs and think: that is part of me, part of my body. When you first interacted sexually with a girl you experienced a female sexual organ for the first time in your memory. At that time you (or at least I) couldn't understand what it would be like to have a female sexual organ. That would be a weird thought for you, to have a vagina where there 'should be' a penis. Hopefully that makes sense up until now. If you are a transgendered (MtF) person instead you would feel that you have a penis where there 'should be' a vagina; it would be as odd for you to have that penis as it would for me to have a vagina and you would be as uncomfortable in that body with that sexual organ (and everything that comes with it) as I would be in a female body.
Good post, and accurate. @the bolded--you can always just ask them which they prefer 
On April 04 2012 11:30 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:23 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2012 07:17 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. Can you explain to me the difference between sex and gender? What does it even mean to think you're a gender that you're not? You prefer the social roles assigned to that gender? You don't like the way he or her sounds when ascribed to you? I don't understand how the entire notion of transgendered isn't just a psychological problem...>_> I don't have any personal experience with this, but as far as I understand, people born physically as males feel psychologically like females, and vice versa. Essentially, they simply feel like they're in a body that is not "theirs", so to speak. It extends far beyond social roles; though, if it was just that, then your transgenderism would probably fall more to the lines of cross-dressing. I don't understand how that makes sense. How can you feel like you're psychologically female or male, what does that even mean? Generally it means you feel like you belong better to the social norms surrounding the gender identity that you associate with. For example, in the United States, you may feel like you prefer to play with dolls and play house as a child, or you may feel 'motherly'. This isn't to say everyone experiences it this way (or even that a majority does, I lack the numbers), but the basic idea is that you don't feel like the norms that are applied to your biological sex should apply to you: it feels wrong. Remember that gender is a social construct.
That's very untrue. Gender expectations don't have much at all to do with being transgendered. Trans people don't feel they act/enjoy things so much like a certain gender (ie; a guy who enjoys dressing femmy, playing with dolls, etc other 'female' social activites) that they just decide they 'might as well be that gender.' That's just not how it works at all. There's trans people who are hyper-feminine/masculine after transition, and there's some that are the exact opposite (trans women that are very butch, trans men who are femmy, and everywhere in between.)
Gender norms are a social construct, gender is not.
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On April 04 2012 12:27 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:04 Promethelax wrote:On April 04 2012 09:21 PhoenixLight wrote:
Suppose there is some sort of "amazonian society" where woman were dominant and acted almost completely different from girls in societies we were used to... Does a transgender girl identify as a girl in this society in the same way as transgender girl in our normal society does? I feel like they're completely different and society actually does have something to do with it. From what I know the Transgendered person would still feel the desire to be of the other sex than the one they appear to be. The issue of being transgender is about the body and not about the society; if you are not comfortable in your body that will not change even if you are asked to do something you are comfortable with. I believe people, not just in this thread but, in all walks of life misunderstand what it is to be transgendered. The transgendered person is not (necessarily) uncomfortable with the gender role provided by society; they are uncomfortable in their body. There are transgendered women who are also lesbians, transgendered men who identify as gay. The sex role is not the same as the gender of the person.
Another point I would make is in regards to the pronoun being particularly gendered. If you are unsure of which pronoun is appropriate and don't wish to offend you could also chose to use the genderless pronoun which is popular withing the LGBTQ community, instead of he or she the singular is ze and the particular (him or her) is zer. As to the idea that these people chose to be transgendered; there is no choice in the gender you identify as. It is the same as your sexual orientation, from birth (or from early youth) you will Identify as a particular gender, a particular sexual orientation. I don't really know how to explain that knowledge to someone who hasn't experienced it; I'll do my best though. Sorry for all of the assumptions in this, I'm not sure how else to do it. This explanation assumes you are a cis heterosexual male who has interacted sexually with a cis heterosexual female. If you are male and have been since birth you can remember your own comfortably with your sexual organs, since you were young you could look at your own sexual organs and think: that is part of me, part of my body. When you first interacted sexually with a girl you experienced a female sexual organ for the first time in your memory. At that time you (or at least I) couldn't understand what it would be like to have a female sexual organ. That would be a weird thought for you, to have a vagina where there 'should be' a penis. Hopefully that makes sense up until now. If you are a transgendered (MtF) person instead you would feel that you have a penis where there 'should be' a vagina; it would be as odd for you to have that penis as it would for me to have a vagina and you would be as uncomfortable in that body with that sexual organ (and everything that comes with it) as I would be in a female body. Good post, and accurate. @the bolded--you can always just ask them which they prefer Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:30 Whitewing wrote:On April 04 2012 11:23 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2012 07:17 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. Can you explain to me the difference between sex and gender? What does it even mean to think you're a gender that you're not? You prefer the social roles assigned to that gender? You don't like the way he or her sounds when ascribed to you? I don't understand how the entire notion of transgendered isn't just a psychological problem...>_> I don't have any personal experience with this, but as far as I understand, people born physically as males feel psychologically like females, and vice versa. Essentially, they simply feel like they're in a body that is not "theirs", so to speak. It extends far beyond social roles; though, if it was just that, then your transgenderism would probably fall more to the lines of cross-dressing. I don't understand how that makes sense. How can you feel like you're psychologically female or male, what does that even mean? Generally it means you feel like you belong better to the social norms surrounding the gender identity that you associate with. For example, in the United States, you may feel like you prefer to play with dolls and play house as a child, or you may feel 'motherly'. This isn't to say everyone experiences it this way (or even that a majority does, I lack the numbers), but the basic idea is that you don't feel like the norms that are applied to your biological sex should apply to you: it feels wrong. Remember that gender is a social construct. That's very untrue. Gender expectations don't have much at all to do with being transgendered. Trans people don't feel they act/enjoy things so much like a certain gender (ie; a guy who enjoys dressing femmy, playing with dolls, etc other 'female' social activites) that they just decide they 'might as well be that gender.' That's just not how it works at all. There's trans people who are hyper-feminine/masculine after transition, and there's some that are the exact opposite (trans women that are very butch, trans men who are femmy, and everywhere in between.) Gender norms are a social construct, gender is not.
Yes, that would be the simplest way to resolve that issue. I was hoping people could ease themselves into treating transgendered people as people by moving away from the references to this woman as 'he' or 'he/she' if they want to get their point across and not be total asses they could use the gender neutral pronoun and be comfortable with that since it doesn't specify that she is female. Of course if someone is uncomfortable calling a MtF female 'she' they probably won't be comfortable using the gender neutral pronoun.
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Why do TL give so much attention to pageant contests? They are pretty pointless to begin with OH WAI- sorry anna
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On April 04 2012 12:27 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:04 Promethelax wrote:On April 04 2012 09:21 PhoenixLight wrote:
Suppose there is some sort of "amazonian society" where woman were dominant and acted almost completely different from girls in societies we were used to... Does a transgender girl identify as a girl in this society in the same way as transgender girl in our normal society does? I feel like they're completely different and society actually does have something to do with it. From what I know the Transgendered person would still feel the desire to be of the other sex than the one they appear to be. The issue of being transgender is about the body and not about the society; if you are not comfortable in your body that will not change even if you are asked to do something you are comfortable with. I believe people, not just in this thread but, in all walks of life misunderstand what it is to be transgendered. The transgendered person is not (necessarily) uncomfortable with the gender role provided by society; they are uncomfortable in their body. There are transgendered women who are also lesbians, transgendered men who identify as gay. The sex role is not the same as the gender of the person.
Another point I would make is in regards to the pronoun being particularly gendered. If you are unsure of which pronoun is appropriate and don't wish to offend you could also chose to use the genderless pronoun which is popular withing the LGBTQ community, instead of he or she the singular is ze and the particular (him or her) is zer. As to the idea that these people chose to be transgendered; there is no choice in the gender you identify as. It is the same as your sexual orientation, from birth (or from early youth) you will Identify as a particular gender, a particular sexual orientation. I don't really know how to explain that knowledge to someone who hasn't experienced it; I'll do my best though. Sorry for all of the assumptions in this, I'm not sure how else to do it. This explanation assumes you are a cis heterosexual male who has interacted sexually with a cis heterosexual female. If you are male and have been since birth you can remember your own comfortably with your sexual organs, since you were young you could look at your own sexual organs and think: that is part of me, part of my body. When you first interacted sexually with a girl you experienced a female sexual organ for the first time in your memory. At that time you (or at least I) couldn't understand what it would be like to have a female sexual organ. That would be a weird thought for you, to have a vagina where there 'should be' a penis. Hopefully that makes sense up until now. If you are a transgendered (MtF) person instead you would feel that you have a penis where there 'should be' a vagina; it would be as odd for you to have that penis as it would for me to have a vagina and you would be as uncomfortable in that body with that sexual organ (and everything that comes with it) as I would be in a female body. Good post, and accurate. @the bolded--you can always just ask them which they prefer Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 11:30 Whitewing wrote:On April 04 2012 11:23 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:33 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2012 07:17 Megabuster123 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:08 Alay wrote:On April 04 2012 06:56 Gnosis wrote:On April 04 2012 06:52 Alay wrote:Look at all the people in here trying to tell me I don't exist or should have lived on in agony, how cute and blissfully ignorant. Lets give this a run down, shall we? - Gender identity is part of your personality. It's a part of what makes your mind "you." One part of this is the minds determination of your gender, in the broadest terms a binary of "male" and "female" though there's more of a spectrum of gender identities (consider people who identify as women as anywhere from very butch to very feminine, and the same with people who identify as men.) This gender identity portion of your personality is largely (possibly entirely) built during natal growth. You cannot change your gender identity. All attempts to alter them have ended up very bad. In most cases, humans are born with a congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex.
- Dissonance between gender identity and biological sex causes a wave of depression in individuals, known as Gender Dysphoria. It's the kind of extreme deep pain that you wouldn't wish on the most evil person in the world. If you've never experienced it, you probably can't comprehend it--and that's okay, you're pretty damn lucky to not. Just recognize it exists.
- This Gender Dysphoria inhibits day to day life as the "birth assigned" gender, the condition is called Gender Identity Disorder.
- Transgender (transsexual, specifically) individuals are those who feel they have an incongruence between their innate gender identity, and their biological sex.
- Transsexual individuals feel their biological sex is opposite what their gender identity is, and thus feel the need to permanently live as the opposite sex, in order to feel congruence between their gender identity and their biological sex. After this 'transition' which can involve things such as hormone replacement (testosterone suppression and estrogen supplement in male-to-females, testosterone injections in female-to-males), hair removal (facial hair, for example), breast binding/removal, in some cases facial surgeries, and in some cases Sexual Reassignment Surgery (penile inversion or phalloplasty are common, though other techniques exist.)
That's just the fine detail stuff. The truth is, society really really hates people that go outside what they consider the norms. I can't begin to explain the number of laughs and vile stares I used to get at that horrible "in between" phase, the teachers and peers that would intentionally try to talk me down or belittle me, or the times my parents would tell me they love me no matter what in one sentence, then try to punch my face in the next (my father on a few occasion, literally.) It's a horribly difficult undertaking, and it's one that someone would only do if they have no other choice but transitioning or suicide--and believe me, far too high of a percent take the later route. This is hardly some whim decision people do for the laughs. Afterwards (oh, and by afterwards I mean after genital surgery. Before that in most states you're still considered your birth sex, get a nice old school letter marker on your license/ID that lets police arrest you for suspected prostitution, and if you apply for a job Social Security calls up your employer and outs you--hope you enjoy lower wages or being outright fired!) you get the fun of being treated as your birth sex in most states regarding marriage--thus, any who doesn't have gay marriage legalized bars a man and a woman from getting married, and often times bars you from even getting married to someone of the same gender, so you at that point cannot actually wed. You get the fun of dealing with people throughout your life (such as the many in this thread already) who scream at the top of their lungs that you are the sex you're born as, your identity doesn't actually exist (and thus you don't exist) while being so far from the world of dealing with GID that they cannot comprehend the basics. You get the amazing fun of disclosure to future partners--in some cases it is backlashed with violence. And of course you get experienced of public humiliation and 'outting' and 'other'ing such as the topic of the OP. Fun, isn't it? So please, piss off you ignorant twat, because I exist, and I've gone through more crap to be who I am and have a chance to grasp a TINY PART of the normalness that you get to have for free. /rantoff Regardless, onto the actual story: She shouldn't have lied (if she did, I've also heard from other places they kicked her they added the "women born women!" clause after) because that was stupid. They shouldn't have made such a stupid and senseless rule to begin with. I'm literally stunned that Trump turned this around. It makes me proud to see that there's at least some sensible people in this thread. TL you've made me proud. As you give off the impression that you know quite a bit about this, would you happen to know of any papers / resources that attend to the epistemic issues associated with transgenderism (e.g. how warranted is the belief that one was born the wrong sex, when one has never been anything other than the sex they were born)? Not quite sure what you mean? No one, sans those that have transitioned, have experienced what it's like to be both sexes--and even then it's accuracy against being biologically born and raised as the opposite sex aren't really possible to compare. Basically, my point is, how would those that are cisgendered (same birth sex as their gender identity, aka 'not-trans') know that they're actually <whatever gender they are> if they've never tried being <opposite gender>? Personal experience wise: I knew I wasn't my birth sex, and I suffered GID and Gender Dysphoria because I continued trying to live as my birth sex. I was somewhat sure my gender identity was the opposite sex, and after transitioning (and slowly alleviating gender dysphoria) I found out I was correct. Not all transgendered feel they're in a binary either, it should be noted. Some identify as genderqueer (neither male nor female accurately describes their gender.) Dunno what that's like though, so I can't provide much information on that. I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're saying. Can you explain to me the difference between sex and gender? What does it even mean to think you're a gender that you're not? You prefer the social roles assigned to that gender? You don't like the way he or her sounds when ascribed to you? I don't understand how the entire notion of transgendered isn't just a psychological problem...>_> I don't have any personal experience with this, but as far as I understand, people born physically as males feel psychologically like females, and vice versa. Essentially, they simply feel like they're in a body that is not "theirs", so to speak. It extends far beyond social roles; though, if it was just that, then your transgenderism would probably fall more to the lines of cross-dressing. I don't understand how that makes sense. How can you feel like you're psychologically female or male, what does that even mean? Generally it means you feel like you belong better to the social norms surrounding the gender identity that you associate with. For example, in the United States, you may feel like you prefer to play with dolls and play house as a child, or you may feel 'motherly'. This isn't to say everyone experiences it this way (or even that a majority does, I lack the numbers), but the basic idea is that you don't feel like the norms that are applied to your biological sex should apply to you: it feels wrong. Remember that gender is a social construct. That's very untrue. Gender expectations don't have much at all to do with being transgendered. Trans people don't feel they act/enjoy things so much like a certain gender (ie; a guy who enjoys dressing femmy, playing with dolls, etc other 'female' social activites) that they just decide they 'might as well be that gender.' That's just not how it works at all. There's trans people who are hyper-feminine/masculine after transition, and there's some that are the exact opposite (trans women that are very butch, trans men who are femmy, and everywhere in between.) Gender norms are a social construct, gender is not.
I mean, it's certainly useful to have a term for whatever feature of a person tends to cause the dysphoria often experienced by transgendered people, and 'gender' might as well serve this purpose. But this is not how the sex-gender distinction is always, or even typically used. Especially in the context of feminism, 'gender' frequently relates to gender norm type of things, as the wikipedia post in the mod note attests to. It was for this use of the term that I was asking my earlier rigid designation question.
Looks like we're going to need another term.
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so, i just saw a news article on this, and the first thing i thought was that she kind of looks like trump's daughter.
her
![[image loading]](http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/201233//300.jennatalackova.mh.040312.jpg)
trump's daughter
![[image loading]](http://topnews.in/light/files/ivanka_trump_07.jpg)
am i just out there with this comparison?
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The uglier side of people on TL is showing. Every 3rd or 4th post is "Oh, these pageants are stupid anyways," or "They allow people who have had cosmetic surgery in? Disgusting." Some people think starcraft is stupid and a bad thing that shouldn't exist. We don't like it when they shit on what we enjoy, so how about we show some goddamn common decency and respect what these girls enjoy.
In addition, for a group of people who labels themselves as "open minded" or "progressive" y'all sure are intolerant of other people's views. A guy earlier got banned just for saying "he." Is it that difficult to think that one might think that someone who was born male is a male, and should be identified as "he?" It's not blatantly offensive, and it is not intended to be.
I think that it is kind of silly to demand that society addresses you a certain way if you are would clearly not normally be addressed that way. Saying that you are the other sex when you do not appear to be or are not actually is just not true, and you can't blame people for seeing what's there. It's like if someone was 5'4" (163cm for the rest of the world) and they demanded that you call them 6' tall (183cm) all of the time. No matter what they believe, it is simply a lot to ask of others to overlook what is there to accommodate your beliefs. It's not wrong that you have these beliefs, but you must understand that you can't take offense to those who don't quite understand what is going on. You have to think of everyone here, not only the transgendered.
It's also quite silly to enter a contest which clearly states that it is only for naturally born females (sex not gender) when you yourself are not one and then have people complain about why you were disqualified. It is fine, however, to discuss the merits of the rule in the first place and possibly get it overturned (as has been done). But when this first happened, people were saying that the pageant had no right to do this when it clearly did. Private companies can choose whoever they want to compete in their events or receive their charities or whatever. Ugh. Just a few thoughts on the situation.
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On April 04 2012 14:38 dAPhREAk wrote:so, i just saw a news article on this, and the first thing i thought was that she kind of looks like trump's daughter. her trump's daughter am i just out there with this comparison?
they both have the same nose
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I wish i could remember this documentary on gender reassignment but the scientist in it say that their is a cell/node/gland what have you that tells you what gender you are, regardless of your sexual organs, social environment and what people tell you. In the documentary there was a case of a boy who was raised as a girl in the 70's, they were home school upto the age of 4, limited media access etc .guess what it didnt work. That person always felt like they was something wrong.
They also had a look at the dissected brains of some transgendered people. They found that the gland that tells you what you are, was of the opposite sex than what they were originally born. Meaning it is actually a biological anomaly than a choice of preference. Its like if you were born with 2 less fingers, if no one told you and you had nothing to compare , you would still know something is wrong, even if they were spaced evenly.
My knowledge on this subject or lack thereof is embarrassing but it is a fascinating topic and some real hard science behind it rather than a psychological mindset that is present since birth .
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