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On April 02 2012 19:15 naVaz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery. exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
'None are more stupid than those who falsely believe they are enslaved' would be equally fitting.
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On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut
up.
But isn't desire an integral part of the capitalist system? We need people to continue consuming to keep the economy rolling don't we?
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Drive your kids too hard, and they're going to have a bad time.
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On April 02 2012 19:47 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:17 RancidTurnip wrote:On April 02 2012 19:15 naVaz wrote:On April 02 2012 18:22 Ectrid wrote:
And that's why capitalistic systems like this work so good. You don't need any physical pressure like a whip, all you need to do is install a system were people have to life in fear and out of fear they work their asses off.
I call that slavery. exactly. it IS slavery. a very advanced form. all arround the world. "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe If Capitalism is slavery, then by that same logic, so is Socialism. You might not have to worry about losing your jobs, but you still need to have a job. you are wrong. Because in socialism companies are owned by the state, and the state is owned by its people. (in theory!) So it's more or less a circle there people -> state -> companies -> people, while in capitalism with companies owned by private persons: boss -> company -> worker This is VERY simplified, but more or less it works out this way.
In the eyes of socialists, capitalists are slaves.
In the eyes of capitalists, socialists are lazy.
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I just find it funny that with the privilege of actually asking from the number of Koreans lurking in these forums people still prefer to theorycraft and act as "experts" on this matter.
So Koreans, wtf is going on there? 
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On April 02 2012 20:01 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up. you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending? And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense!
So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
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Really need actual Koreans to come and comment on the situation here. Also, governments always have to make a choice between leaning towards the happiness/welfare of the citizens compared to the economic productivity of the nation. Whats important is finding out if the governement has overdone it in its pursuit for economic growth.
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On April 02 2012 20:02 oldgregg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut
up. But isn't desire an integral part of the capitalist system? We need people to continue consuming to keep the economy rolling don't we?
Thats the dilemma isn't it? Pursue more material goods for happiness, but in the long run, happiness is compromised.
What hurts even more is that if you can't detach yourself fully from this path of consumerism, then other countries will simply catch up and outdo you. So its really more about learning to be self-contented on the personal level really.
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On April 02 2012 20:08 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 20:01 TeeTS wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up. you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending? And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense! So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw 
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It breaks my heart to read this. In a way, it goes to show how awful the consequences of capitalist economic reform can be for so many people
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On April 02 2012 20:08 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 20:01 TeeTS wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up. you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending? And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense! So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it.
Well this is kinda how I have felt all my life.
My parents and my environment in which I grew up never really forced me to excel at anything.It was good enough if you just did the work you are supposed to do.My parents aren't rich,they are a middle class family and I can imagine their income would be considered lower class in some other more developed country lol.
The point is,all my life I had every basic thing I needed and nothing in excess,I was never unhappy about not having a bigger house,car.etc. and I never felt like I need more than I have right now.I just want to continue at the standard that I am living now and eventually be able to give my kids the same thing I had,I don't see why they would need more.
The people that usually work hard and strive for something better are those with a chip on their shoulder that come from rich family's or people that come from poor family's,immigrants and such.This is not 100% the case ofc but generally its true.They want a better life for themselves and they overwork their ass to get there.I understand that.
I just never felt the need to do something similar and I'm not sure if its good or bad.
My point is that I was never really stressed out and unhappy because of the work load to the point where I would say:"holy shit,life sucks".I'm still fairly young but,I can see how you could go through life being perfectly average and being happy.
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On April 02 2012 19:53 goldenwitch wrote:
Clearly an economist finds non-cultural reasons for unhappiness. If it's a free market that is making koreans unhappy, why is the rest of the western world which is also on a free market not unhappy? Japan and Korea have and have had more than just one thing in common culturally, particularly an intense pressure to conform. Why is that not even touched on? I feel like this guy simply has an opinion and then picked someone to try and back up his opinion. It's the kind of logic you find on the internet all the time(and usually dismiss out of hand).
Having read most of Chang's books: He would argue that there is no such thing as an intrinsically better or happier culture. Whatever features are prominent in a culture are dependant to a large extent on the economic development a country is going through.
All in all, Ha-Joon Chang is one of the few excellent authors in international development economics and deserves to be read if you're interested in the subject at all. You're allowed to disagree with the guy, but at least go for the full version of his argument.
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Korean kids are sent to "academies" starting as soon as they start going to grade school. Taekwondo, English, piano, art, math, what have you. This begins mostly as a day care with a theme, because both parents are working full-time jobs. A large portion of their incomes goes to this, too. Huh.
As they enter middle and high school, the kids are under increasing pressure from parents and peers to outperform everyone. The measure of performance is test grades, and the point of reference is siblings, what your parents claim they were at your age, other students around your age and in your class, and that kid in the newspaper and on youtube. And how much money you're going to be making in 10 years. This is assumed to be an increasing function of how many hours you spend in front of a textbook.
High school and college students are under extreme pressure to perform well, and the only way they are told to do this is to study more. If they fail a test, they are worthless, and everything they've invested their lives in up to that point is a waste. Hence the student suicides. (Anecdote is not evidence, but at my school there was a string of student suicides, which resulted in the school reverting their "English-only" lecture policy implemented a couple of years ago.)
This produces a workforce that knows how to take tests and is ill prepared for any actual work involving thinking, but is expected to perform better than well-trained and educated engineers and scientists that are increasingly being imported from sane countries. The solution is to work unpaid overtime, including weekends.
You get a population that knows no measure of worth other than money and the perception of your peers and family. When the inevitable half of the people realize they are under average, they become angry and depressed. After all, they did everything right and nothing's working out. Some of them evidently become suicidally depressed.
Another aspect to this is that a psychiatrist is for crazy people. Spending money on something to make you feel better, when obviously feeling better is a state of mind that you can achieve with pure will power is a self-indulging, disgusting behavior, and is a waste of money that you should be saving up for the next car, or house, or your kids' education at the academies. On a similar line, games are pure evil unless you can get big bucks out of it. Hence the birth of professional gaming.
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On April 02 2012 20:13 oldgregg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 20:08 opisska wrote:On April 02 2012 20:01 TeeTS wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up. you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending? And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense! So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it. Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw
My parents have always worked part-time jobs (less than 30 hours a week for my father and less than 20 for my mother). They live very comfortable lives. Ofcourse they have the privilege of being well-educated in a country that is friendly towards part-time employement, but it is possible atleast.
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On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up.
Is Pavlov's dog guilty for her salivation? The beauty of consumer society is that it preys on us by design, provides the means by which to buy things immediately (credit) and constantly reinvents desire so that we consume at a constant pace. It brings with it the promise of status, pleasure and desirability to the purchaser. All these things sound quite lovely, no? and only for 24 installments of $29.99 a week. Just because you didn't get trawled into this desire circle-jerk doesn't give you the right to scorn others. After all, its meant to work on us.
Most successful people come preset with many advantages, be it genetics (physical or mental prowess), or circumstantial (ghetto vs upper middle class suburb and all the things that come with them). It is a fairytale that anyone can become millionaire if they try hard enough. So what of these poor humans, not so different to us, not born as fortunate as us. Let 'em starve cause they can't digest a calculus textbook? Since you cite morality, I'd love to hear you excuse that.
You know what I think? The super rich guy doesn't need his third Audi, and it seems you'd agree, since you seem to be so against the perils of consumerism, and I quote "stop wasting you [sic] money on whatever is hip". But you know what, that poor kid from the shitty neighborhood could sure use some better healthcare, education or a nutritional diet.
I guess in your eyes, that makes me "immoral".
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On April 02 2012 20:23 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 20:13 oldgregg wrote:On April 02 2012 20:08 opisska wrote:On April 02 2012 20:01 TeeTS wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up. you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending? And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense! So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it. Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw My parents have always worked part-time jobs (less than 30 hours a week for my father and less than 20 for my mother). They live very comfortable lives. Ofcourse they have the privilege of being well-educated in a country that is friendly towards part-time employement, but it is possible atleast.
And now we see the important point..
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On April 02 2012 20:34 oldgregg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 20:23 Crushinator wrote:On April 02 2012 20:13 oldgregg wrote:On April 02 2012 20:08 opisska wrote:On April 02 2012 20:01 TeeTS wrote:On April 02 2012 19:55 opisska wrote:
Oh my god, these "slavery" arguments are so bad, how comes that people buy them over and over?
The only source of unhappiness is desire. People are unhappy, because they believe (either becuase they are weak enough to have this belief installed, on stupid enough to create it on their own) that they need X, Y and Z to be happy and if they do not have that, they are unhappy. I can hardly cooment on Korea, with no knowledge on the actual situation over there, but the same kind of complaints is heard everywhere in the developed world, including my country. Everybody is crying, because they are now so "poor", the "crisis" is so "bad" that they cannot afford to have their own house, two cars and spend $2000 a month on nonsense.
People just want too much for too little and that is the dowfall of our society. If you stop wasting you money on whatever is hip, stop thinking that if you see someone having something shiny, you need it as well, you will quickly realise that you are so, so very happy to live in this "capitalistic slavery", when compared to many other places on the Earth.
The nail in the coffin is the general inability of people to save money (crowned by the monumental idiocy of byuing stuff on loans). I do not need a bloody job security to be happy, I have saved enough money to live for several years if I happen to not have a job - and I am STILL a student, never had a full-time job in my life! Most of the people in Europe could probably put aside half of their income and still do not suffer from anything gruesome. Oh, wait, but they couldn't have a new car every two years, if they did that, could they?
The whole "social welfare" is just taking money from succesfull and hard working people to cater for the masss of idiots who cannot take care of themselves, yet they cannot withstand to look at others who have better stuff. The state should take care of the seriously ill and the seriously disabled (becuase - aside of, say, hard smokers with cancer - are just unlucky and not responsible for not being able to look after themselves) and that is about it. Anyhing else is just immoral.
You are not enslaved by the capitalism. If you are enslaved, it is only by your stupidity. Learn to live with that or shut up. you actually know, that the whole economical system would collapse, if everyone would start saving half of his income and stop spending? And yeah, people just want too much... You seem to have a lot of life experience. Those greedy people working 50+ hours a week, they just want too much, while beeing so lazy. And you really dare to say such things while never having experienced how it is to have a regular full time job. This is such a stupid post, really shame on you, so much words and so less sense! So because I do not need to have a full time job, because working half-time satisfies my need for money more than enough, I am a lesser person? Your "50+ hours people" work so hard, because they want to. If they didn't, they won't die (at least not in western Europe), they would just have to learn to live with less. Nobody is forcing them, but theyir own greed. That this the whole point of my post and you seem to have completely missed it. Do you have a wife and children? Or a mortgage? Sorry to get personal but I'm pretty sure that people who do have families to feed kinda NEED to work alot of hours... I know my parents do, Im from NZ btw My parents have always worked part-time jobs (less than 30 hours a week for my father and less than 20 for my mother). They live very comfortable lives. Ofcourse they have the privilege of being well-educated in a country that is friendly towards part-time employement, but it is possible atleast. And now we see the important point..
Indeed, the important point is that it is theoretically possible for a wealthy society to organise itself in such a way that professional achievement is not the only consideration. And it is possible for people not to aspire towards ever increasing standards of material wealth, while still maintaining a largely 'capitalist' economic system.
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On April 02 2012 20:22 BottleAbuser wrote:
Korean kids are sent to "academies" starting as soon as they start going to grade school. Taekwondo, English, piano, art, math, what have you. This begins mostly as a day care with a theme, because both parents are working full-time jobs. A large portion of their incomes goes to this, too. Huh.
As they enter middle and high school, the kids are under increasing pressure from parents and peers to outperform everyone. The measure of performance is test grades, and the point of reference is siblings, what your parents claim they were at your age, other students around your age and in your class, and that kid in the newspaper and on youtube. And how much money you're going to be making in 10 years. This is assumed to be an increasing function of how many hours you spend in front of a textbook.
High school and college students are under extreme pressure to perform well, and the only way they are told to do this is to study more. If they fail a test, they are worthless, and everything they've invested their lives in up to that point is a waste. Hence the student suicides. (Anecdote is not evidence, but at my school there was a string of student suicides, which resulted in the school reverting their "English-only" lecture policy implemented a couple of years ago.)
This produces a workforce that knows how to take tests and is ill prepared for any actual work involving thinking, but is expected to perform better than well-trained and educated engineers and scientists that are increasingly being imported from sane countries. The solution is to work unpaid overtime, including weekends.
You get a population that knows no measure of worth other than money and the perception of your peers and family. When the inevitable half of the people realize they are under average, they become angry and depressed. After all, they did everything right and nothing's working out. Some of them evidently become suicidally depressed.
Another aspect to this is that a psychiatrist is for crazy people. Spending money on something to make you feel better, when obviously feeling better is a state of mind that you can achieve with pure will power is a self-indulging, disgusting behavior, and is a waste of money that you should be saving up for the next car, or house, or your kids' education at the academies. On a similar line, games are pure evil unless you can get big bucks out of it. Hence the birth of professional gaming.
I think you can put this to use in Taiwan aswell, though i do not know Korea very well i have alot of experience with Taiwan.
As i travel there often for my company.
The presure those kids are under is just extreme, we all want kids to do wel in the future and parents often push kids but spending 14+ hours on school as a child is very punishing and it makes you wonder if this is really the best for our future generation.
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I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
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On April 02 2012 20:47 oldgregg wrote:
I just love it how nobody is arguing the facts here. It's all just arguments about theoretical things! Some people will go to such lengths to ignore facts, it's kinda scary
There are no proven "facts" when it comes to economics, there are merely theories on how the economy should react to certain stimuli.
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EPT
