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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 16 2013 10:12 Klipsys wrote:
So is it legal in Florida to kill someone who is attacking you? That's what I don't understand. I get that Travony attacked him (maybe not first but who cares) but how does that give Z the right to SHOOT him? That's what I'm not getting. How can you legally escalate the situation beyond what the (supposed) aggressor is doing? Was he REALLY in fear for his LIFE?
you cannot shoot someone who is attacking you unless (1) you actually fear death or great bodily harm, and (2) a reasonably prudent person in the same or similar circumstance would actually fear death or great bodily harm.
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On July 16 2013 10:12 Shiori wrote:
Basically this case showed that you should always do the safe thing when you encounter some bizarre situation. Yes, Zimmerman was clearly paranoid, probably racist, and weirdly suspicious, but Trayvon made the worst possible decision by trying to actually fight with him. If someone is following you, either he wants to follow you or it's a coincidence. In the latter case, nothing happens, whereas in the former case there's a small chance he might attack you. Why increase that chance to 100% by attacking him first? Just run away, or walk away, or just ask him what he wants and then leave if he makes you feel uncomfortable. If a fight does occur (regardless of who started it, since such things are pretty much impossible to tell after the fact) you have a chance of being killed, since guns are apparently pretty common, so try to avoid getting into one.
I am really not trying to be antagonistic, but on what do you base the assumption that George Zimmerman is "probably racist?"
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On July 16 2013 10:12 Klipsys wrote:
So is it legal in Florida to kill someone who is attacking you? That's what I don't understand. I get that Travony attacked him (maybe not first but who cares) but how does that give Z the right to SHOOT him? That's what I'm not getting. How can you legally escalate the situation beyond what the (supposed) aggressor is doing? Was he REALLY in fear for his LIFE?
It's fear of death or great bodily harm, both of which can be caused by attacks such as the ones GZ claims Martin did. Head wounds can be scary. Plus there is the fact GZ said he saw Martin going for his gun, which is even more dangerous.
So no, it's not unreasonable for someone to fear for his safety in a fist fight to the point where he is allowed to shoot the attacker.
If you say you can only do what the agressor is doing, that means you can only kill him if he is in the process of killing you. You obviously are allowed to shoot him before that, if it's reasonable to believe the attack may get worse.
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On July 16 2013 10:16 phoenix`down wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:12 Shiori wrote:
Basically this case showed that you should always do the safe thing when you encounter some bizarre situation. Yes, Zimmerman was clearly paranoid, probably racist, and weirdly suspicious, but Trayvon made the worst possible decision by trying to actually fight with him. If someone is following you, either he wants to follow you or it's a coincidence. In the latter case, nothing happens, whereas in the former case there's a small chance he might attack you. Why increase that chance to 100% by attacking him first? Just run away, or walk away, or just ask him what he wants and then leave if he makes you feel uncomfortable. If a fight does occur (regardless of who started it, since such things are pretty much impossible to tell after the fact) you have a chance of being killed, since guns are apparently pretty common, so try to avoid getting into one. I am really not trying to be antagonistic, but on what do you base the assumption that George Zimmerman is "probably racist?"
I don't mean he was a raging KKK member, or anything, or that race had anything to do with the Trayvon situation, but what I've read about Zimmerman's past seems to indicate that he was somewhat problematic, had a big mouth, and, like lots of people, repeated negative stereotypes about various minorities. I can't find a source right at the moment, because I don't actually remember where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure there was something that gave me the impression that he wasn't exactly the politest, most politically correct guy around.
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Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was).
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On July 16 2013 10:21 Housemd wrote:
Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was).
he also tutored underprivileged kids on the weekends most of whom were black.
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Can't remember the source of my outlandish opinion... 
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On July 16 2013 10:22 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:21 Housemd wrote:
Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was). he also tutored underprivileged kids on the weekends most of whom were black.
Can't forget about the black teacher with amazing Skype technical knowledge.
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On July 16 2013 10:22 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:21 Housemd wrote:
Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was). he also tutored underprivileged kids on the weekends most of whom were black.
he also called black people "fucking coons!!!"
oh wait, that was back when everyone wanted to paint zimmerman as a racist and they deliberately misrepresented the 911 tapes. and then the FBI investigated him and said there is no evidence of racism despite interviewing like 30 some odd people.
glad to see people are still acting like sheep and acting like he is a racist. he isnt winning any awards (except maybe Darwin awards), but i have yet to see anything showing him to be a racist.
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Anyone watching Rachel Jeantel on CNN?
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On July 16 2013 10:21 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:16 phoenix`down wrote:On July 16 2013 10:12 Shiori wrote:
Basically this case showed that you should always do the safe thing when you encounter some bizarre situation. Yes, Zimmerman was clearly paranoid, probably racist, and weirdly suspicious, but Trayvon made the worst possible decision by trying to actually fight with him. If someone is following you, either he wants to follow you or it's a coincidence. In the latter case, nothing happens, whereas in the former case there's a small chance he might attack you. Why increase that chance to 100% by attacking him first? Just run away, or walk away, or just ask him what he wants and then leave if he makes you feel uncomfortable. If a fight does occur (regardless of who started it, since such things are pretty much impossible to tell after the fact) you have a chance of being killed, since guns are apparently pretty common, so try to avoid getting into one. I am really not trying to be antagonistic, but on what do you base the assumption that George Zimmerman is "probably racist?" I don't mean he was a raging KKK member, or anything, or that race had anything to do with the Trayvon situation, but what I've read about Zimmerman's past seems to indicate that he was somewhat problematic, had a big mouth, and, like lots of people, repeated negative stereotypes about various minorities. I can't find a source right at the moment, because I don't actually remember where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure there was something that gave me the impression that he wasn't exactly the politest, most politically correct guy around.
I see where you are coming from, but you have to consider that his life was under a microscope. I feel like if you look deep enough you will find that at some point almost everyone has done or said things that could be construed as racist or politically incorrect, but it doesn't mean they are racist.
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On July 16 2013 10:25 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:22 crms wrote:On July 16 2013 10:21 Housemd wrote:
Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was). he also tutored underprivileged kids on the weekends most of whom were black. he also called black people "fucking coons!!!" oh wait, that was back when everyone wanted to paint zimmerman as a racist and they deliberately misrepresented the 911 tapes. and then the FBI investigated him and said there is no evidence of racism despite interviewing like 30 some odd people. glad to see people are still acting like sheep and acting like he is a racist. he isnt winning any awards (except maybe Darwin awards), but i have yet to see anything showing him to be a racist.
Well, I should have noted that it was just my personal opinion. Zimmerman's brother made some pretty racist-sounding remarks on Twitter, and there have been some reports (no idea how true they are) about Zimmerman's old Myspace page surfacing with some questionable remarks on it. Again, I don't think he was some hardcore racist or anything, but in my opinion there's a decent chance that he wasn't exactly a standard bearer for treating all racial groups with respect at all times, either. That said, most people say racial slurs or things that could be construed as racist from time to time (myself included) so I can' make any conclusion on whether Zimmerman actually was racist, only on what I feel to be probably based on my general (and definitely biased) impression of him.
It wasn't meant to be some definitive statement. I'm sorry if people took it that way!
Again, though, I want to stress that it makes absolutely no difference whether Zimmerman was racist or uttered racial slurs once or anything. It doesn't matter if he was the shittiest guy alive. My point is that doing what Trayvon did was dumb, and nothing more.
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My god, someone posted this on my facebook
+ Show Spoiler +
Normally I'm pretty tolerable of the garbage spewed on facebook, but I think I'm at my limit.
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Apparently Eric Holder thinks that Trayvon's death was "unnecessary" and that he is going to "get to the bottom of this". I'm glad he has his priorities in the right order..
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On July 16 2013 10:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 16 2013 10:22 crms wrote:On July 16 2013 10:21 Housemd wrote:
Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was). he also tutored underprivileged kids on the weekends most of whom were black. he also called black people "fucking coons!!!" oh wait, that was back when everyone wanted to paint zimmerman as a racist and they deliberately misrepresented the 911 tapes. and then the FBI investigated him and said there is no evidence of racism despite interviewing like 30 some odd people. glad to see people are still acting like sheep and acting like he is a racist. he isnt winning any awards (except maybe Darwin awards), but i have yet to see anything showing him to be a racist. Well, I should have noted that it was just my personal opinion. Zimmerman's brother made some pretty racist-sounding remarks on Twitter, and there have been some reports (no idea how true they are) about Zimmerman's old Myspace page surfacing with some questionable remarks on it. Again, I don't think he was some hardcore racist or anything, but in my opinion there's a decent chance that he wasn't exactly a standard bearer for treating all racial groups with respect at all times, either. That said, most people say racial slurs or things that could be construed as racist from time to time (myself included) so I can' make any conclusion on whether Zimmerman actually was racist, only on what I feel to be probably based on my general (and definitely biased) impression of him. It wasn't meant to be some definitive statement. I'm sorry if people took it that way! Again, though, I want to stress that it makes absolutely no difference whether Zimmerman was racist or uttered racial slurs once or anything. It doesn't matter if he was the shittiest guy alive. My point is that doing what Trayvon did was dumb, and nothing more.
i think you mean zimmerman in the last line.
zimmerman's brother made some stupid fucking tweets during this case. i have not seen anything on zimmerman's myspace page. i will google it.
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On July 16 2013 10:41 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:34 Shiori wrote:On July 16 2013 10:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 16 2013 10:22 crms wrote:On July 16 2013 10:21 Housemd wrote:
Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was). he also tutored underprivileged kids on the weekends most of whom were black. he also called black people "fucking coons!!!" oh wait, that was back when everyone wanted to paint zimmerman as a racist and they deliberately misrepresented the 911 tapes. and then the FBI investigated him and said there is no evidence of racism despite interviewing like 30 some odd people. glad to see people are still acting like sheep and acting like he is a racist. he isnt winning any awards (except maybe Darwin awards), but i have yet to see anything showing him to be a racist. Well, I should have noted that it was just my personal opinion. Zimmerman's brother made some pretty racist-sounding remarks on Twitter, and there have been some reports (no idea how true they are) about Zimmerman's old Myspace page surfacing with some questionable remarks on it. Again, I don't think he was some hardcore racist or anything, but in my opinion there's a decent chance that he wasn't exactly a standard bearer for treating all racial groups with respect at all times, either. That said, most people say racial slurs or things that could be construed as racist from time to time (myself included) so I can' make any conclusion on whether Zimmerman actually was racist, only on what I feel to be probably based on my general (and definitely biased) impression of him. It wasn't meant to be some definitive statement. I'm sorry if people took it that way! Again, though, I want to stress that it makes absolutely no difference whether Zimmerman was racist or uttered racial slurs once or anything. It doesn't matter if he was the shittiest guy alive. My point is that doing what Trayvon did was dumb, and nothing more. i think you mean zimmerman in the last line. zimmerman's brother made some stupid fucking tweets during this case. i have not seen anything on zimmerman's myspace page. i will google it.
He was talking about how Trayvon should have just went home instead of waiting for Zimmermann, so he probally means Trayvon. Both of them did dumb things anyway.
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On July 16 2013 10:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 16 2013 10:22 crms wrote:On July 16 2013 10:21 Housemd wrote:
Don't think Zimmerman was racist at all. He simply acted on human behavior, not race. As one guy posted earlier, Zimmerman organized a protest with local black people to protest something (can't remember what it was). he also tutored underprivileged kids on the weekends most of whom were black. he also called black people "fucking coons!!!" oh wait, that was back when everyone wanted to paint zimmerman as a racist and they deliberately misrepresented the 911 tapes. and then the FBI investigated him and said there is no evidence of racism despite interviewing like 30 some odd people. glad to see people are still acting like sheep and acting like he is a racist. he isnt winning any awards (except maybe Darwin awards), but i have yet to see anything showing him to be a racist. Well, I should have noted that it was just my personal opinion. Zimmerman's brother made some pretty racist-sounding remarks on Twitter, and there have been some reports (no idea how true they are) about Zimmerman's old Myspace page surfacing with some questionable remarks on it. Again, I don't think he was some hardcore racist or anything, but in my opinion there's a decent chance that he wasn't exactly a standard bearer for treating all racial groups with respect at all times, either. That said, most people say racial slurs or things that could be construed as racist from time to time (myself included) so I can' make any conclusion on whether Zimmerman actually was racist, only on what I feel to be probably based on my general (and definitely biased) impression of him.
You kind of make your own post completely unnecessary with the two bolded parts, if everybody who makes racist remarks once is a rascist then we all are, if you don't think he's a racist because of that your earlier post about him probably being a racist doesn't make much sense.
I don't want to be rude, but to me it seems like your accusations of racism have no real ground to stand on, you just said it because he was so often judged as a racist that you stopped questioning it and just kinda accepted that he must be a racist without thinking much about it, which then became your "general impression" of him.
It's pretty sad.
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I'm wondering, under stand your ground laws can you start a fight and if you are losing, shoot the person? Can this law be abused in this way?
Edit: I'm just curious what do stand your ground laws actually provide on legal grounds?
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On July 16 2013 10:18 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:12 Klipsys wrote:
So is it legal in Florida to kill someone who is attacking you? That's what I don't understand. I get that Travony attacked him (maybe not first but who cares) but how does that give Z the right to SHOOT him? That's what I'm not getting. How can you legally escalate the situation beyond what the (supposed) aggressor is doing? Was he REALLY in fear for his LIFE? It's fear of death or great bodily harm, both of which can be caused by attacks such as the ones GZ claims Martin did. Head wounds can be scary. Plus there is the fact GZ said he saw Martin going for his gun, which is even more dangerous. So no, it's not unreasonable for someone to fear for his safety in a fist fight to the point where he is allowed to shoot the attacker. If you say you can only do what the agressor is doing, that means you can only kill him if he is in the process of killing you. You obviously are allowed to shoot him before that, if it's reasonable to believe the attack may get worse.
I think most people understand the idea of protecting yourself from harm. The frustration is that this case shines a spotlight on how difficult it is to disprove self defense regardless of how warranted you feel it was in this case. With the presence of any altercation it is basically impossible apart from eye witnesses or a recording of the event. This is a very obvious loophole with potential for all sorts of abuse.
It is an interesting concern. At what point do victim advocacy laws like stand your ground, concealed carry, presumption of innocence and self defense sanction vigilante justice? Is it counterproductive to make the only prerequisites for justified murder provocation and discretion? How much risk is it reasonable to expect a person to shoulder before they are allowed to pursue their self interest at all costs?
It is a basic principle of justice that punishment should fit the crime. That the sentence for Tayvon's actions was death as sanctioned by the state through these laws seems excessive. It is just good governance to re-evaluate how the letter of the law can better serve all Americans, Zimmermans and Tayvons alike.
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On July 16 2013 10:55 JumboJohnson wrote:
I'm wondering, under stand your ground laws can you start a fight and if you are losing, shoot the person? Can this law be abused in this way?
Edit: I'm just curious what do stand your ground laws actually provide on legal grounds?
Depends on the circumstances, where you are, what you are doing, and what the other person is doing.
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EPT
