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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On March 31 2012 06:47 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:37 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 31 2012 06:32 JinDesu wrote:I'm trying to find the source for the 7:16. I can't imagine it'd be "made up" considering her phone has a call log and would say how long. Heck, his phone has a call log too! i assume the call duration is to the right on the document. usually is on my cellphone records. they just didnt post the entire document unfortunately. With that in mind, one of the local 911 calls in the neighborhood was pegged at 7:16 as well, and the caller reported scuffling, followed by "HELP!", followed by a gunshot. + Show Spoiler +Attached is a map as found on: http://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/I do not know the authenticity of the car locations and the X (which I assume is Trayvon Martin's body). I'll try to verify the map when I get home and search around. From what I am reading of this, I don't think Trayvon Martin "ambushed" George Zimmerman. I think George Zimmerman definitely went after Trayvon Martin. I don't know who initiated the fight. However, I think that because George Zimmerman did follow Trayvon, and he definite confronted Trayvon, he should be arrested for the killing. It may not be a murder, but it definitely should be considered a manslaughter.
cool, i added it to the op. there is also a video in there with the father retracing the steps. its all somewhat speculative, but it gives people an impression of what the area looked like. thanks.
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Just looking at that map, I don't see why Zimmerman needed to get out at all to look at the "street signs".
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On March 31 2012 06:57 Adila wrote:
Just looking at that map, I don't see why Zimmerman needed to get out at all to look at the "street signs".
Not to mention the fact that it's his neighborhood and he should know exactly where he is.
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On March 31 2012 06:57 Adila wrote:
Just looking at that map, I don't see why Zimmerman needed to get out at all to look at the "street signs".
i think he was looking for house numbers, not the name of the street.
On March 31 2012 06:58 lwwkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:57 Adila wrote:
Just looking at that map, I don't see why Zimmerman needed to get out at all to look at the "street signs". Not to mention the fact that it's his neighborhood and he should know exactly where he is.
i actually dont know the names of the street in my housing development. =( but im not a neighborhood watchman. i definitely dont know the house numbers even around my own house (they are not all sequential).
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On March 31 2012 06:15 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:06 Zato-1 wrote:On March 31 2012 05:57 Saryph wrote:On March 31 2012 05:41 Zato-1 wrote:On March 31 2012 05:28 Saryph wrote:
You're saying talking to your girlfriend on the phone can easily lead to you being in such a foul mood you end up murdering random people?
You might want to rethink your relationships with women if this is anywhere close to true for you man. What is up with the purposeful misinterpretation going on in this thread? I said that talking on the phone with his girlfriend might have put Martin in a shitty mood. That's all. I will now say more. Add to that the fact that this fat latino guy from the neighborhood is stalking him and asking him questions, clearly thinking that he's a burglar of some sort, and that might be enough for someone who is hot-headed to punch the fat guy in the face, beat him up, and thus vent his frustration- which is kind of what Martin did, according to Zimmerman's story. Is it plausible? I say yes. I'd appreciate it if you stop making dumb ad hominem attacks against posters you disagree with and get back on the topic of the shooting of Treyvon Martin case. You said it, not me, and it is definitely no ad hominem. You are in no way contributing to the discussion when you just start throwing out every single 'what-if' you randomly come upon. You saying he got into a fight with his gf on the phone, and that led to the fight and death of the kid is based on nothing at all. In fact, you're accusing witnesses of lying, based on what? Get the story straight. + Show Spoiler +On March 31 2012 05:06 JinDesu wrote:
With the two stories from the father and the brother - it still doesn't coincide with the thought that George Zimmerman was returning to his car when he was attacked from behind. Trayvon Martin was on the phone a very short time before the cops got there. It still seems very very odd for Trayvon to attack a person while on the phone - or so shortly after getting off the phone. I didn't "start throwing out every single 'what-if' I randomly come upon", I was replying to another poster who brought up Martin's state of mind after getting off the phone, finding it hard to believe that Martin could attack someone right after getting off the phone. I established that it was, in fact, possible. You keep attacking me and trying to derail the discussion. Stop it. Regardless: See below. Show nested quote +"At 7.16pm, four minutes after the call began, the phone went dead."
"By the time police arrive on the scene, at 7.17pm, Martin lay fatally wounded by a gunshot to the chest." Trayvon Martin was on the phone until 7:16pm. The altercation was over by 7:17pm. That is according to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/trayvon-martin-death-story-so-far?newsfeed=trueUnless the timeline is incorrect, it seems very unlikely that Trayvon Martin hung up the phone, approached Mr. Zimmerman unaware, struck him from behind, and mounted him, smashed his head against the ground, and punched him. That is all without the girlfriend's testimony. With the girlfriend's testimony, it then becomes: Mr. Zimmerman approaches Trayvon Martin as he is on the phone. Physical altercation results, causing the phone to disconnect at 7:16. In the minute after, Trayvon Martin is shot.
Ok, let's see exactly what we know:
Timeline facts: Trayvon Martin's last phone call began at 7:12 pm, and it ended at 7:16 pm. The police arrive at the scene at 7:17 pm.
From the same article,
"She then heard pushing, she said, because Martin's head set fell."
To me, that sounds like Martin wasn't holding the phone in his hand, but was wearing some kind of headset- maybe a cordless bluetooth headset.
If we are to believe the girlfriend, then the call ends after the physical altercation between Martin and Zimmerman had begun, as she heard some pushing. What caused the call to end? Did Martin punch Zimmerman in the face, knock him to the ground, then pause to end the phone call before jumping on him to beat him up? Unlikely. Did Zimmerman shove Martin back, point the gun at his chest, and then Martin took the time to end the call before getting shot? Equally unlikely. Maybe after the initial shoving- whoever it was that initiated it-, someone stepped on the headset, which caused the call to end? It's possible; the call ended after the altercation started, but before Zimmerman shot Martin- otherwise the girlfriend would have heard the gunshot.
It may be that the physical altercation caused the phone to disconnect at 7:16. However, I don't see how it follows that therefore, it was necessarily Zimmerman who initiated the altercation.
On March 31 2012 06:15 JinDesu wrote:
When I read that timeline and then I read the report stating that George Zimmerman claimed he was walking back to the truck and was attacked from behind, I felt very uneasy. I don't see why. We don't know at what time the dialogue between Zimmerman and Martin started:
"What are you following me for?" and someone else saying "What are you doing around here?" We also don't know how much time elapsed between this and when the girlfriend heard pushing; there's nothing in the article that indicates that it happened immediately after, and I find it plausible that after this exchange, Zimmerman turned his back and started walking away, only to be assaulted by Martin, which ended the phone call.
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@dAPhREAk
Yea, your point definitely makes more sense. I can't see him being unaware of what street he is on, but I can see him not knowing exactly what address he was closest to.
Edit: Format
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I hope there will be a proper investigation into this.
The things that I find strange is the missing blood, if they were truly struggling and T was on top of Z and Z somehow managed to pull out his gun and shoot him, where is the transfered blood from T to Z ?
On the video tapes he looks very clean no major signs of injury not even a limp or anything.
It is a likely explanation that T felt being threatened because he was followed and Z believed T to be a criminal because he was well ... black I'm sure he wouldn't have followed a white guy and phoned the police because of a white guy to begin with.
The next step was that some confrontation erupted and Z shot T.
An unarmed boy going to buy slushies or whatever in a game break is not very likely to start attacking someone who is stronger and looks like a Hispanic cartel member without good reason. The only reasons I can imagine for T to attack first was if he felt seriously threatened or if he was seriously provoked in both cases Z is the one responsible.
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On March 31 2012 06:37 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:32 JinDesu wrote:I'm trying to find the source for the 7:16. I can't imagine it'd be "made up" considering her phone has a call log and would say how long. Heck, his phone has a call log too! i assume the call duration is to the right on the document. usually is on my cellphone records. they just didnt post the entire document unfortunately.
Ok, so going back through my history of dozens of articles I've read so far I found these articles that specifically mention a one minute gap:
"There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened."
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager
"She heard an altercation and then the phone call was cut off, Crump said.
When police arrived a minute later, at 7.17pm, Martin was lying dead in the street."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/trayvon-martin-death-phone-call?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
"Crump said that phone records that the Sanford Police Department had clearly show the last call was at 7:12 p.m. by a girl who he had talked to all day. He said the call lasted four minutes."
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/nLX9c/
The original article of the former thread stated these times as well, but I've read so many articles now. There are probably more that actually have 7:16 listed, but there are so many to comb through. I can confidently say though that any article I've read that listed specific times for the girlfriends call and police arrival have stated 7:12-7:16 and 7:17 respectively. There is little reason to doubt the TMobile phone records times or the police report times, though I do not know how absolute the clocks were synchronized, it's likely they were still very close. It's still a short timeframe regardless.
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On March 31 2012 06:53 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:51 Defacer wrote:If I took a defined footpath in what seems to be public green space in order to avoid a guy following me in a car, and all of a sudden that dude appeared ahead of me, that would probably freak me out. Sorry - please disregard the arrows. Only consider the location of the car and the body - the arrows are defining a possible walking path but are not (and probably cannot) be confirmed. I'm not sure about the location of the car, but it looks like the location of the body is accurate. With the body at that location, and the street is not so near, Zimmerman saying he was attacked unaware from behind by Trayvon seems very odd. He must have confronted Trayvon. So it comes down to what happened during the confrontation - did Zimmerman attack Trayvon first? Did Trayvon attack Zimmerman first?
The first thing that jumped out at me is the distance between the car and the body. I was under the impression that he had just got out to look at a street sign, but if it was to look at house numbers, he passed 3-4 of them. Either the placement of the car is off in that photo or something doesn't add up with the testimony (imo).
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On March 31 2012 07:10 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:53 JinDesu wrote:On March 31 2012 06:51 Defacer wrote:If I took a defined footpath in what seems to be public green space in order to avoid a guy following me in a car, and all of a sudden that dude appeared ahead of me, that would probably freak me out. Sorry - please disregard the arrows. Only consider the location of the car and the body - the arrows are defining a possible walking path but are not (and probably cannot) be confirmed. I'm not sure about the location of the car, but it looks like the location of the body is accurate. With the body at that location, and the street is not so near, Zimmerman saying he was attacked unaware from behind by Trayvon seems very odd. He must have confronted Trayvon. So it comes down to what happened during the confrontation - did Zimmerman attack Trayvon first? Did Trayvon attack Zimmerman first? The first thing that jumped out at me is the distance between the car and the body. I was under the impression that he had just got out to look at a street sign, but if it was to look at house numbers, he passed 3-4 of them. Either the placement of the car is off in that photo or something doesn't add up with the testimony (imo).
Yeah, it real does seem he went out of his way to find him.
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On March 31 2012 07:10 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:37 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 31 2012 06:32 JinDesu wrote:I'm trying to find the source for the 7:16. I can't imagine it'd be "made up" considering her phone has a call log and would say how long. Heck, his phone has a call log too! i assume the call duration is to the right on the document. usually is on my cellphone records. they just didnt post the entire document unfortunately. Ok, so going back through my history of dozens of articles I've read so far I found these articles that specifically mention a one minute gap: "There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened." http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager"She heard an altercation and then the phone call was cut off, Crump said. When police arrived a minute later, at 7.17pm, Martin was lying dead in the street." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/trayvon-martin-death-phone-call?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487"Crump said that phone records that the Sanford Police Department had clearly show the last call was at 7:12 p.m. by a girl who he had talked to all day. He said the call lasted four minutes." http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/nLX9c/I've read so many articles now, there are probably more that actually have 7:16 listed, but there are so many to comb through. I can confidently say though that any article I've read that listed specific times for the girlfriends call and police arrival have stated 7:12-7:16 and 7:17 respectively. There is little reason to doubt the TMobile phone records times or the police report times, though I do not know how absolute the clocks were synchronized, it's likely they were still very close. It's still a short timeframe regardless.
it seems like such a simple thing to corroborate; just look at the cellphone records and see call duration. so, i will not dispute any of the news organization's statements that the call ended at 7:16.
something for people to consider though is the veracity of the girlfriend's statement. just because the call ended at 7:16 does not mean that is when the confrontation started. she said she heard some of the confrontation, but it is entirely possible that she heard more than she is willing to admit.
zimmerman's police call was apparently at 7:00. the police apparently arrived at 7:17. the confrontation and death of trayvon occurred in that approximately 15 minute period. it may be that zimmerman was pursuing trayvon, and then trayvon called the girlfriend because of the pursuit.
this is, of course, me speculating. i just smell something fishy with the girl's story. if you think that something happened to your loved one, you don't disappear and stay silent, only to reappear weeks later with a story breaking the case. i understand she is still a child and apparently her parents told her not to get involved, but it just smells fishy to me.
edit: does it bother anyone that the parent's attorney is keeping evidence away from the police department?
"We're going to turn this over to the Justice Department because the family does not trust the Sanford Police Department to have anything to do with the investigation," said Crump.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3YylNn4a9Y
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It took three days for the Sanford police to notify Trayvon's parents of his death. That's not exactly a confidence builder.
But it also means Trayvon's girlfriend knew that he had suddenly disappeared for three days. That is very odd.
Edit: Also imagining a police officer telling you that your son attacked someone. If the Martin's truly believed that their son was incapable of that kind of behaviour, they would immediately become defensive and distrustful.
It would be like a teacher telling you that your kid was slow or had a learning disability. A protective parent would immediately accuse a teacher of not doing their job properly.
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On March 31 2012 06:41 Saryph wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:34 Defacer wrote:On March 31 2012 06:26 Saryph wrote:On March 31 2012 06:21 Defacer wrote:On March 31 2012 05:58 Freddybear wrote:
"This is beneath contempt," Scarborough railed. "These people on the far right are being fools to try to make this a political issue.”
Yeah, shame on them, it's only race-baiting Democrats who are allowed to make this a political issue. Republicans have a bad enough rep already. Last thing that they need is to be seen as digging through the grave of a dead 17 year old. No lefties have gone as far as hacked Zimmerman's email and facebook ... yet. The best thing the Right can do now politically is hang back and allow the Spike Lees of the world overreact and make fools of themselves. I wouldn't connect white supremacists with the republican party, even if white supremacists might vote for them. It's not really fair to them, and there are a lot of bad people who vote for the democratic party as well. Though it might just be the way I am reading your post, and you didn't mean it that way. Scarborough is criticizing the far right nutjobs (like White Supremacists) for fanning the flames, and some of mainstream conservative media for picking up what they find. Scarborough is like, "NOT WORTH IT." He also criticized Republicans for making women's contraception a big issue in an election year. Risking the alienation the tens of millions of women -- including republicans -- that use birth control is not exactly a winning strategy. I actually heard him make both of those arguments, I watch the show from time to time, they toss in quite a few jokes on that show, or maybe its just because it is so early.  I completely agree that trying to pass legislature repealing women's rights that have been in place for half a century is a horribly decision, and I find it horrible people are trying to score political points from this horrible tragedy. I was only saying that the structure of your post made it come across that you were associating extremists with the political party they supported, and I said it was unfair to do so. I'm sure you didn't mean to do that, but that is how I (and apparently others by looking at the thread) took your post.
But those are just the standard Democrat talking points. Republicans aren't trying to take away women's right to use contraceptives. They are objecting to Obamacare's requirement that churches (like the Catholic church) must pay for insurance that includes a contraception benefit, including abortion.
And with Trayvon, Republicans are objecting to the race-baiting and the rush to condemn Zimmerman before all the facts are out, and pointing out that Martin isn't necessarily the angel that the race-baiters are portraying him as.
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On March 31 2012 07:31 Defacer wrote:It took three days for the Sanford police to notify Trayvon's parents of his death. That's not exactly a confidence builder. But it also means Trayvon's girlfriend knew that he had suddenly disappeared for three days. That is very odd.
Wasn't this because it took the police three days to identify John Doe, the guy who Zimmerman killed, as Treyvon Martin? It still reeks of incompetence from the PD that they had Martin's cellphone and it took them 3 days to identify the guy, I suppose.
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On March 31 2012 06:58 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:57 Adila wrote:
Just looking at that map, I don't see why Zimmerman needed to get out at all to look at the "street signs". i think he was looking for house numbers, not the name of the street. Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 06:58 lwwkicker wrote:On March 31 2012 06:57 Adila wrote:
Just looking at that map, I don't see why Zimmerman needed to get out at all to look at the "street signs". Not to mention the fact that it's his neighborhood and he should know exactly where he is. i actually dont know the names of the street in my housing development. =( but im not a neighborhood watchman. i definitely dont know the house numbers even around my own house (they are not all sequential).
That might be true, but I know plenty of ways to describe exactly where I am in my neighborhood without mentioning the exact housenumber. It seems to me like your response in a situation where you are pressed for time would be 'I'm at the first block around the bend' or something similar. The natural response doesn't seem to be to get out of the car and walk a block or two around.
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On March 31 2012 07:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 07:10 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 31 2012 06:37 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 31 2012 06:32 JinDesu wrote:I'm trying to find the source for the 7:16. I can't imagine it'd be "made up" considering her phone has a call log and would say how long. Heck, his phone has a call log too! i assume the call duration is to the right on the document. usually is on my cellphone records. they just didnt post the entire document unfortunately. Ok, so going back through my history of dozens of articles I've read so far I found these articles that specifically mention a one minute gap: "There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened." http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager"She heard an altercation and then the phone call was cut off, Crump said. When police arrived a minute later, at 7.17pm, Martin was lying dead in the street." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/trayvon-martin-death-phone-call?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487"Crump said that phone records that the Sanford Police Department had clearly show the last call was at 7:12 p.m. by a girl who he had talked to all day. He said the call lasted four minutes." http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/nLX9c/I've read so many articles now, there are probably more that actually have 7:16 listed, but there are so many to comb through. I can confidently say though that any article I've read that listed specific times for the girlfriends call and police arrival have stated 7:12-7:16 and 7:17 respectively. There is little reason to doubt the TMobile phone records times or the police report times, though I do not know how absolute the clocks were synchronized, it's likely they were still very close. It's still a short timeframe regardless. it seems like such a simple thing to corroborate; just look at the cellphone records and see call duration. so, i will not dispute any of the news organization's statements that the call ended at 7:16. something for people to consider though is the veracity of the girlfriend's statement. just because the call ended at 7:16 does not mean that is when the confrontation started. she said she heard some of the confrontation, but it is entirely possible that she heard more than she is willing to admit. zimmerman's police call was apparently at 7:00. the police apparently arrived at 7:17. the confrontation and death of trayvon occurred in that approximately 15 minute period. it may be that zimmerman was pursuing trayvon, and then trayvon called the girlfriend because of the pursuit. this is, of course, me speculating. i just smell something fishy with the girl's story. if you think that something happened to your loved one, you don't disappear and stay silent, only to reappear weeks later with a story breaking the case. i understand she is still a child and apparently her parents told her not to get involved, but it just smells fishy to me. edit: does it bother anyone that the martin's parents' attorney are keeping evidence away from the police department? Show nested quote +
"We're going to turn this over to the Justice Department because the family does not trust the Sanford Police Department to have anything to do with the investigation," said Crump.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3YylNn4a9Y
Zimmerman's call was at 7:00? I think I recall reading it was later than that, possibly after even the girlfriend call, but I don't know for sure anymore, and I really don't feel like spending another 10 minutes combing through my history, so I'll take your word for it. Tbh, everyone's story sounds a little fishy at this point, what with checking street/house addresses only to be attacked from behind, and the girlfriend allegedly hearing the confrontation begin. Didn't the newly appointed prosecutor also say something similar to Crump there, that she would start the investigation from scratch because she didn't trust the original investigation by the Sanford Police? Interesting.
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Yes, but not sure how to take that. I might do the same thing considering how much everything is getting spun one way or another and since there are some contradictions going on with testimony and evidence as well.
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On March 31 2012 07:34 Freddybear wrote:
And with Trayvon, Republicans are objecting to the race-baiting and the rush to condemn Zimmerman before all the facts are out, and pointing out that Martin isn't necessarily the angel that the race-baiters are portraying him as.
That's fine. But Republicans have everything to gain by taking the high ground right now. If the facts bear out that Trayvon instigated the attack, then it makes all the rabble-rousing lefties look foolish.
Play the long game, bro!
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On March 31 2012 07:31 Defacer wrote:It took three days for the Sanford police to notify Trayvon's parents of his death. That's not exactly a confidence builder. But it also means Trayvon's girlfriend knew that he had suddenly disappeared for three days. That is very odd. Edit: Also imagining a police officer telling you that your son attacked someone. If the Martin's truly believed that their son was incapable of that kind of behaviour, they would immediately become defensive and distrustful. It would be like a teacher telling you that your kid was slow or had a learning disability. A protective parent would immediately accuse a teacher of not doing their job properly.
I believe the mother filed a missing person report. Perhaps the girlfriend was the reason for that? I have to double check the links when I get back.
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On March 31 2012 07:37 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 07:34 Freddybear wrote:
And with Trayvon, Republicans are objecting to the race-baiting and the rush to condemn Zimmerman before all the facts are out, and pointing out that Martin isn't necessarily the angel that the race-baiters are portraying him as. That's fine. But Republicans have everything to gain by taking the high ground right now. If the facts bear out that Trayvon instigated the attack, then it makes all the rabble-rousing lefties look foolish. Play the long game, bro!
It's never good to let fools put their foolishness out there unchallenged. Too many other fools will take the lack of opposition for an admission that the foolishness is something profound.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_trayvon_martin_phone_call_dm_120320_main.jpg)
