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On May 07 2012 18:05 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 17:46 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 17:29 jon arbuckle wrote:
I honestly want to kiss France on the cheek.
Were there any Le Pen supporters in this thread? I'm afraid to look. Most of them aren't really that bad. They are just conservative people who are pissed by the recent scandals, the lies and all the political bs. The sociology of the party is also fairly complex and there are several different tendencies, it is not like 18% of the population are nazi wannabes lol. Anyway they can't be really worse than all the resentful lefties. Well, they still voted for a racist party, whose major claim is that "arabs" or "muslims" (they don't care too much about differences) are the main problem for the country. They are against the vote of foreigners at local elections, want to send them back to their country of origin. Let also note that Marine Le Pen recently went to a neo nazi celebration in Austria. More generally, they are in favor of death penalty, against abortion, want to give police much more power (for instance giving them the presumption of legitimate defense whenever they killed someone) etc. etc. Regarding the relations with "conservative right", we can underline the fact that this "conservative right" has itself become more and more racist. Previous Ministre de l'Intérieur (Police Secretary more or less) was found guilty of racist insults by justice. More generally, the whole Sarkozy campaign was very rightist, targetting far right voters. I am not sure what it means to be "bad"; but at least, we have to keep in mind that they are racist and authoritarian.
ya let's ignore the facts saying that 70% of prisons population are arabs. Clearly they aren't one of the problems!
not that i would vote for her but still, i can see why she would want more strict immigration rules.
glad sarko got voted out. it will be interesting to see if this one does any better (i highly doubt it).
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On May 07 2012 18:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:18 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 18:05 Macpo wrote:On May 07 2012 17:46 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 17:29 jon arbuckle wrote:
I honestly want to kiss France on the cheek.
Were there any Le Pen supporters in this thread? I'm afraid to look. Most of them aren't really that bad. They are just conservative people who are pissed by the recent scandals, the lies and all the political bs. The sociology of the party is also fairly complex and there are several different tendencies, it is not like 18% of the population are nazi wannabes lol. Anyway they can't be really worse than all the resentful lefties. Well, they still voted for a racist party, whose major claim is that "arabs" or "muslims" (they don't care too much about differences) are the main problem for the country. They are against the vote of foreigners at local elections, want to send them back to their country of origin. Let also note that Marine Le Pen recently went to a neo nazi celebration in Austria. More generally, they are in favor of death penalty, against abortion, want to give police much more power (for instance giving them the presumption of legitimate defense whenever they killed someone) etc. etc. Regarding the relations with "conservative right", we can underline the fact that this "conservative right" has itself become more and more racist. Previous Ministre de l'Intérieur (Police Secretary more or less) was found guilty of racist insults by justice. More generally, the whole Sarkozy campaign was very rightist, targetting far right voters. I am not sure what it means to be "bad"; but at least, we have to keep in mind that they are racist and authoritarian. You have to use your words properly. Wanting to have a stricter immigration policy doesn't make you a "racist". Same thing if you don't want foreigners to vote. I mean there are many countries with stricter immigration laws than France lol. The whole "neo nazi celebration" in Austria is pretty much bullshit since neo nazi parties are BANNED in Austria ( and pretty much everywhere in Europe ). But yea your whole post is like "boo hoo right is bad, boo hoo racist, boo hoo neo nazi". Typical lefty lol. This ridiculous stigmatization also explains why some people vote for the FN. When you call people nazis all the time just because they have different values well you can't really expect them to vote for you. The fact that people still doubt that Le Pen and the FN are racist really puzzles me.
"Le Pen" and "FN" are brands, which have had a racist image/publicity for a long time. J.M. Le Pen has been convicted for advocating racism and has lead the "FN" for decades. All those are valid points, but the generalization is incorrect.
"Everyone named Le Pen is a racist" is false (and a blatant discrimination in itself). Main question is, can the "FN" party get rid of its racist image with someone named Le Pen as a leader. Of that I am not sure, looks like they are trying to do so.
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On May 07 2012 18:14 ContrailNZ wrote:
As someone who knows very little about France, it seems both candidates had some major flaws.
Sarkozy lowered tax cuts to the rich, but couldn't counter this with cuts to public service entitlements? Bad idea exaggerated.
The problem I see with Hollande from what I have read is I do not see how a retirement age of 60 can be economically viable? France is a relatively wealthy country, but everywhere else the retirement age is higher and increasing more. 60 might have been okay when people lived much harder (physical) lives. Plus I'm sure retirement incomes are being paid for many years more now then they have previously due to increased life expectancy.
Does France not have a "baby boomer"generation born in the 50's which are going to reach retirement age at once very soon? This is a VERY expensive policy at a time of high debt risk. Imagine if Greece / Spain declare bankruptcy and France has to forgo all the money lent to them?
Also, the 75% tax rate. From what I've seen very few people actually get hit by this as it kicks in so high, and those that do are very good at avoiding taxes. I'm not sure it will bring in the claimed money and there are a million ways to avoid it I'm sure.
This can be demonstrated by Ireland. They introduce insanely low tax rates and business flowed in and the economy boomed (until the euro disaster). Doesn't this demonstrate how willing people / company's are to avoid higher taxes.
The sooner my generation gets rid of all the baby-boomers the better. Trust me, it's so fucking hard getting a summer job right now and I'm not even talking about proper contracts. The last 10 years we have been fucked over and over, the 80ies children had the chance to profit from the internet boom but those born afterwards (after 88 more or less) are struggling every day right now.
The payout for retirement isn't going to increased until the internet-born generation starts to enter the market (around 8 to 10 years) Also people needs to do 42 of work before retiring. My parents still work even though they are older than 60.
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On May 07 2012 19:34 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:05 Macpo wrote:On May 07 2012 17:46 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 17:29 jon arbuckle wrote:
I honestly want to kiss France on the cheek.
Were there any Le Pen supporters in this thread? I'm afraid to look. Most of them aren't really that bad. They are just conservative people who are pissed by the recent scandals, the lies and all the political bs. The sociology of the party is also fairly complex and there are several different tendencies, it is not like 18% of the population are nazi wannabes lol. Anyway they can't be really worse than all the resentful lefties. Well, they still voted for a racist party, whose major claim is that "arabs" or "muslims" (they don't care too much about differences) are the main problem for the country. They are against the vote of foreigners at local elections, want to send them back to their country of origin. Let also note that Marine Le Pen recently went to a neo nazi celebration in Austria. More generally, they are in favor of death penalty, against abortion, want to give police much more power (for instance giving them the presumption of legitimate defense whenever they killed someone) etc. etc. Regarding the relations with "conservative right", we can underline the fact that this "conservative right" has itself become more and more racist. Previous Ministre de l'Intérieur (Police Secretary more or less) was found guilty of racist insults by justice. More generally, the whole Sarkozy campaign was very rightist, targetting far right voters. I am not sure what it means to be "bad"; but at least, we have to keep in mind that they are racist and authoritarian. ya let's ignore the facts saying that 70% of prisons population are arabs. Clearly they aren't one of the problems! not that i would vote for her but still, i can see why she would want more strict immigration rules. glad sarko got voted out. it will be interesting to see if this one does any better (i highly doubt it).
Oh and where do you take that figure of 70% from? given that racial statistics are forbidden in France? Some kind of random talking or internet website?
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On May 07 2012 19:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 17:46 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 17:29 jon arbuckle wrote:
I honestly want to kiss France on the cheek.
Were there any Le Pen supporters in this thread? I'm afraid to look. Most of them aren't really that bad. They are just conservative people who are pissed by the recent scandals, the lies and all the political bs. The sociology of the party is also fairly complex and there are several different tendencies, it is not like 18% of the population are nazi wannabes lol. Anyway they can't be really worse than all the resentful lefties. No offense but you are the one who sound resentful.
Nope, i don't hate rich people and i'm not butthurt because Le Pen got 18% and Melenchon only 11.
Also i'm not calling people nazis because they don't agree with me :D
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On May 07 2012 19:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 17:46 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 17:29 jon arbuckle wrote:
I honestly want to kiss France on the cheek.
Were there any Le Pen supporters in this thread? I'm afraid to look. Most of them aren't really that bad. They are just conservative people who are pissed by the recent scandals, the lies and all the political bs. The sociology of the party is also fairly complex and there are several different tendencies, it is not like 18% of the population are nazi wannabes lol. Anyway they can't be really worse than all the resentful lefties. No offense but you are the one who sound resentful.
No, actually he doesn't, maybe you and others like you should stop hating on people who have every right to choose their own way of running their own country. I don’t see them calling for violence against anyone.
Seriously 'blind hate towards anyone who dosn't think like me' takes you nowhere Biff. Stop with all the hate.
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On May 07 2012 18:23 WhiteDog wrote:
All Hollande's economic program has been made with the participation of Thomas Picketti and Camille Landais, serious french economist. I just don't understand why people think nothing is serious about his point of view.
Lots of people are just piss that we can't have Dominique Strauss-Khan instead.
This election was all his from the beginning, and he's a way better politician and economist then Hollande.
Anywa, this will have to do.
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On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:18 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 18:05 Macpo wrote:On May 07 2012 17:46 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 17:29 jon arbuckle wrote:
I honestly want to kiss France on the cheek.
Were there any Le Pen supporters in this thread? I'm afraid to look. Most of them aren't really that bad. They are just conservative people who are pissed by the recent scandals, the lies and all the political bs. The sociology of the party is also fairly complex and there are several different tendencies, it is not like 18% of the population are nazi wannabes lol. Anyway they can't be really worse than all the resentful lefties. Well, they still voted for a racist party, whose major claim is that "arabs" or "muslims" (they don't care too much about differences) are the main problem for the country. They are against the vote of foreigners at local elections, want to send them back to their country of origin. Let also note that Marine Le Pen recently went to a neo nazi celebration in Austria. More generally, they are in favor of death penalty, against abortion, want to give police much more power (for instance giving them the presumption of legitimate defense whenever they killed someone) etc. etc. Regarding the relations with "conservative right", we can underline the fact that this "conservative right" has itself become more and more racist. Previous Ministre de l'Intérieur (Police Secretary more or less) was found guilty of racist insults by justice. More generally, the whole Sarkozy campaign was very rightist, targetting far right voters. I am not sure what it means to be "bad"; but at least, we have to keep in mind that they are racist and authoritarian. You have to use your words properly. Wanting to have a stricter immigration policy doesn't make you a "racist". Same thing if you don't want foreigners to vote. I mean there are many countries with stricter immigration laws than France lol. The whole "neo nazi celebration" in Austria is pretty much bullshit since neo nazi parties are BANNED in Austria ( and pretty much everywhere in Europe ). But yea your whole post is like "boo hoo right is bad, boo hoo racist, boo hoo neo nazi". Typical lefty lol. Well let's use words properly. What is a "racist" position? It is a position based on race. This includes racial hatred; but more generally racial fear, contempt; More generally, the real or imagined division of society based on races.
Find me a quote of Marine Le Pen talking about races.
On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
Now, I think you cannot understand such current focus on foreigners in French politics, which are a very minor (migrants over a year represent about 0,2 % of the population...) , and amongst the weakest part of society, without relating it to its racist dimension.
This is true about vote of non european foreigners to local elections: it is just a fantasy to believe that France is going to collapse if such minor change happens (let's note that european foreigners already vote to these elections).
So because people don't agree with the foreign vote they are racists ?
LOL
On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
It is also true about migrations: have you one second considered what the concrete consequences of such a thing would be? Demographically and economically speaking that would be a disaster, especially nowadays: collapse of consumption, demographic decline, not to mention that they usually do the jobs no one wants (go wake up at 6 in the morning in the subway in Paris, you will understand).
With the current unemployment rate i really doubt that more unqualified immigration is going to help the "economy" but w/e.
On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
and what about the whole Hallal controversy created by Marine Le Pen, on how the whole parisian region would eat nothing but "Hallal" food? What is the rationale behind this (beyond the fact that it's just not true)? if you are not muslim, you shouldn't believe that hallal treatment changes anything to food. Do you feel you will be contaminated by such food?? or what? Basically, we have irrational feelings of fear and anger against foreigners.
Well, I for sure don't want to eat Hallal (or Casher food) and at the very least i want to be informed about the meat i'm buying. Wtf is wrong with that ? Some muslim people don't want to eat non hallal food. Some non muslim people don't want to eat hallal food. Too bad.
On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
Of course, people are still hiding a bit, and Marine Le Pen is clever enough to not say openly their whole politics; but the inherent, semi-hidden, powerful feeling is there: foreigners are the problem, because they are not like us and they threaten us...
I can do the same, "FN voters are not like us and they threaten us". Easy !
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On May 07 2012 20:09 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:23 WhiteDog wrote:
All Hollande's economic program has been made with the participation of Thomas Picketti and Camille Landais, serious french economist. I just don't understand why people think nothing is serious about his point of view. Lots of people are just piss that we can't have Dominique Strauss-Khan instead. This election was all his from the beginning, and he's a way better politician and economist then Hollande. Anywa, this will have to do.
Ahhh a socialist who is living the good life, having fun with high class prostitutes while promoting the IMF policies. That guy would know how to talk to poor people that's for sure :D
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On May 07 2012 20:16 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:09 Noocta wrote:On May 07 2012 18:23 WhiteDog wrote:
All Hollande's economic program has been made with the participation of Thomas Picketti and Camille Landais, serious french economist. I just don't understand why people think nothing is serious about his point of view. Lots of people are just piss that we can't have Dominique Strauss-Khan instead. This election was all his from the beginning, and he's a way better politician and economist then Hollande. Anywa, this will have to do. Ahhh a socialist who is living the good life, having fun with high class prostitutes while promoting the IMF policies. That guy would know how to talk to poor people that's for sure :D
Before he got this reputation, he was looked at the French guy at the head of the IMF, who was serious, competent and already won the Presidential.
But things didn't go as planned..
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People are obviously jealous of his success with women duh.
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On May 07 2012 20:10 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:On May 07 2012 18:18 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 18:05 Macpo wrote:On May 07 2012 17:46 Boblion wrote:On May 07 2012 17:29 jon arbuckle wrote:
I honestly want to kiss France on the cheek.
Were there any Le Pen supporters in this thread? I'm afraid to look. Most of them aren't really that bad. They are just conservative people who are pissed by the recent scandals, the lies and all the political bs. The sociology of the party is also fairly complex and there are several different tendencies, it is not like 18% of the population are nazi wannabes lol. Anyway they can't be really worse than all the resentful lefties. Well, they still voted for a racist party, whose major claim is that "arabs" or "muslims" (they don't care too much about differences) are the main problem for the country. They are against the vote of foreigners at local elections, want to send them back to their country of origin. Let also note that Marine Le Pen recently went to a neo nazi celebration in Austria. More generally, they are in favor of death penalty, against abortion, want to give police much more power (for instance giving them the presumption of legitimate defense whenever they killed someone) etc. etc. Regarding the relations with "conservative right", we can underline the fact that this "conservative right" has itself become more and more racist. Previous Ministre de l'Intérieur (Police Secretary more or less) was found guilty of racist insults by justice. More generally, the whole Sarkozy campaign was very rightist, targetting far right voters. I am not sure what it means to be "bad"; but at least, we have to keep in mind that they are racist and authoritarian. You have to use your words properly. Wanting to have a stricter immigration policy doesn't make you a "racist". Same thing if you don't want foreigners to vote. I mean there are many countries with stricter immigration laws than France lol. The whole "neo nazi celebration" in Austria is pretty much bullshit since neo nazi parties are BANNED in Austria ( and pretty much everywhere in Europe ). But yea your whole post is like "boo hoo right is bad, boo hoo racist, boo hoo neo nazi". Typical lefty lol. Well let's use words properly. What is a "racist" position? It is a position based on race. This includes racial hatred; but more generally racial fear, contempt; More generally, the real or imagined division of society based on races. Find me a quote of Marine Le Pen talking about races. Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
Now, I think you cannot understand such current focus on foreigners in French politics, which are a very minor (migrants over a year represent about 0,2 % of the population...) , and amongst the weakest part of society, without relating it to its racist dimension.
This is true about vote of non european foreigners to local elections: it is just a fantasy to believe that France is going to collapse if such minor change happens (let's note that european foreigners already vote to these elections).
So because people don't agree with the foreign vote they are racists ? LOL Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
It is also true about migrations: have you one second considered what the concrete consequences of such a thing would be? Demographically and economically speaking that would be a disaster, especially nowadays: collapse of consumption, demographic decline, not to mention that they usually do the jobs no one wants (go wake up at 6 in the morning in the subway in Paris, you will understand).
With the current unemployment rate i really doubt that more unqualified immigration is going to help the "economy" but w/e. Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
and what about the whole Hallal controversy created by Marine Le Pen, on how the whole parisian region would eat nothing but "Hallal" food? What is the rationale behind this (beyond the fact that it's just not true)? if you are not muslim, you shouldn't believe that hallal treatment changes anything to food. Do you feel you will be contaminated by such food?? or what? Basically, we have irrational feelings of fear and anger against foreigners.
Well, I for sure don't want to eat Hallal (or Casher food) and at the very least i want to be informed about the meat i'm buying. Wtf is wrong with that ? Some muslim people don't want to eat non hallal food. Some non muslim people don't want to eat hallal food. Too bad. Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:34 Macpo wrote:
Of course, people are still hiding a bit, and Marine Le Pen is clever enough to not say openly their whole politics; but the inherent, semi-hidden, powerful feeling is there: foreigners are the problem, because they are not like us and they threaten us...
I can do the same, "FN voters are not like us and they threaten us". Easy !
About Marine le pen being racist, you just have to change "race" by "culture" which fulfills the same function in the argumentation, and you have it. it's the same word, because in the end, it's all about identity and alterity: we don't accept the other in the community, because we feel it threatens our own identity and being.
Do people refuse foreigners to vote because they are racists? in today's France, yes. What other argument would you have against it?
About unemployment, what is your argument? You don't have any. This kind of assumption doesn't take into consideration the fact that foreigners not only have a job, but also create demand (and quite high demand, as they are generally poor and spend most of their income), and therefore economic activity. (plus the fact that, as I said, recent immigrants take jobs other typically don't want). Do you know how segregation started in South Africa in the early 20th century? White Boer workers after the war with Great Britain, had their jobs lost because of destructions during war. Then they claim for white preference for jobs against black people. Then they got reserved professional education and special urban areas for them... in 1924, the National Party governed for the first time. After world war two, they just started the apartheid. All this was starting from the impression that "blacks" were stealing their jobs.
About hallal food, I am just saying it's a ridiculously unimportant issue, which has become important only because many French are getting racist. First Marine le Pen claimed that all food in Paris region was hallal; which is just a lie. Second, do you know what does hallal means? it just means it was killed a certain traditional way, which doesn't affect food, but symbolically, for those believing it.
Of course you can always pretend that everything is normal, and that people don't hate muslims/arabs, but that they just want to be "informed" about their food, that Marine le Pen didn't really lie about hallal, but "simplified truth" in her speech to be heard. You can always think that people don't want immigrants to vote, not because they are afraid, but just because they have a different "culture" which they otherwise very much respect and like; that Marine Le pen didn't really go to Austria; and that I am making up all these things, not because I have reasons to do so, but because I am a stupid leftist.
I will personnally call this denial. But fair enough, then you take responsibility for these claims and their political direct and indirect consequences.
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"They are against the vote of foreigners at local elections, want to send them back to their country of origin. Let also note that Marine Le Pen recently went to a neo nazi celebration in Austria. More generally, they are in favor of death penalty, against abortion, want to give police much more power (for instance giving them the presumption of legitimate defense whenever they killed someone) etc."
Except for Le Pen going to a neo nazi celebration, I am pretty much FOR everything summed up there. And the presumption of legitimate defense.. Shouldn't be presumption but I would support the option of giving police etc.. more power. Anyone being a threat for someone else's (innocent at least) life should just get shot.
tl;dr version:
+ Death penalty
+ Against abortion
+ More power to the police
+ Send people back to their countries where they come from, UNLESS the circumstances are really really bad where no man should live through. (which brings a big debate along about when circumstances are bad enough to let them live in your country)
+ Obligated for army service (even tho this isn't something that was mentioned I believe)
- Presumption of legitimate self defense when someone gets killed and such..
- Le Pen going to a neo nazi celebration
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On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About Marine le pen being racist, you just have to change "race" by "culture" which fulfills the same function in the argumentation, and you have it. it's the same word, because in the end, it's all about identity and alterity: we don't accept the other in the community, because we feel it threatens our own identity and being.
That is nationalism, not racism. It is more a matter of debating wether there is such a thing as a nation's culture and if so, should it change to adapt to newcomers or should the newcomers adapt to fit in.
I agree M. Le Pen is actively defending that yes France has its culture and yes newcomers should learn to speak french, stop washing and gobble up frogs before they are accepted.
Racist statements are illegal in France, but nationalist views are a classical conservative stance. They can be debated, but I fail to see that they should be outright rejected.
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On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About Marine le pen being racist, you just have to change "race" by "culture" which fulfills the same function in the argumentation, and you have it. it's the same word, because in the end, it's all about identity and alterity: we don't accept the other in the community, because we feel it threatens our own identity and being.
No it is not the same word and it doesn't have the same meaning. Also it doesn't fulfills the same function since you are actually using the racist card to discredit any potential FN supporter.
On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
Do people refuse foreigners to vote because they are racists? in today's France, yes. What other argument would you have against it?
Because uh why not ? I mean what's the next step, foreigners to vote for all the elections because why not ?
On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About unemployment, what is your argument? You don't have any. This kind of assumption doesn't take into consideration the fact [b]that foreigners not only have a job, but also create demand (and quite high demand, as they are generally poor and spend most of their income), and therefore economic activity. (plus the fact that, as I said, recent immigrants take jobs other typically don't want).
Bullshit
Le chômage frappe beaucoup plus les étrangers que les Français : 17,8 % sont sans emploi, contre 8,6 % des Français. Le taux atteint 23,5 % pour les actifs non-ressortissants de l’Union européenne. Une partie de cet écart tient au niveau de diplôme : les étrangers sont moins qualifiés en moyenne que les Français.
http://www.inegalites.fr/spip.php?article86
On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
Do you know how segregation started in South Africa in the early 20th century? White Boer workers after the war with Great Britain, had their jobs lost because of destructions during war. Then they claim for white preference for jobs against black people. Then they got reserved professional education and special urban areas for them... in 1924, the National Party governed for the first time. After world war two, they just started the apartheid. All this was starting from the impression that "blacks" were stealing their jobs.
The racist card again ! That's all you got ? OMG U A BOERNAZIFASCIST. Again typical lefty.
On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About hallal food, I am just saying it's a ridiculously unimportant issue, which has become important only because many French are getting racist.
Like if Sarkozy or Hollande talked about the "important" issues lol.
On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
First Marine le Pen claimed that all food in Paris region was hallal; which is just a lie.
I haven't followed the polemic closely but it seems that the majority of the sheep meat is indeed halal (80%) and thus should be advertized accordingly.
http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/viande-halal-la-polemique-enfle-19-02-2012-1432940_23.php
On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
Second, do you know what does hallal means? it just means it was killed a certain traditional way, which doesn't affect food, but symbolically, for those believing it.
Of course you can always pretend that everything is normal, and that people don't hate muslims/arabs, but that they just want to be "informed" about their food, that Marine le Pen didn't really lie about hallal, but "simplified truth" in her speech to be heard.
Yea and ? If some people don't want to eat non casher or non halal food well i think that i should have the choice to not eat halal food too.
On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
You can always think that people don't want immigrants to vote, not because they are afraid, but just because they have a different "culture" which they otherwise very much respect and like; that Marine Le pen didn't really go to Austria; and that I am making up all these things, not because I have reasons to do so, but because I am a stupid leftist.
I will personnally call this denial. But fair enough, then you take responsibility for these claims and their political direct and indirect political consequences.
If you stop to call everyone nazi and racist and maybe you could start to have a proper discussion lol.
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On May 07 2012 20:59 Oshuy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About Marine le pen being racist, you just have to change "race" by "culture" which fulfills the same function in the argumentation, and you have it. it's the same word, because in the end, it's all about identity and alterity: we don't accept the other in the community, because we feel it threatens our own identity and being. That is nationalism, not racism. It is more a matter of debating wether there is such a thing as a nation's culture and if so, should it change to adapt to newcomers or should the newcomers adapt to fit in. I agree M. Le Pen is actively defending that yes France has its culture and yes newcomers should learn to speak french, stop washing and gobble up frogs before they are accepted. Racist statements are illegal in France, but nationalist views are a classical conservative stance. They can be debated, but I fail to see that they should be outright rejected.
Well to a certain extent, it is precisely because racist statements are illegal that right and far right parties tend to be racist indirectly, instead of doing it openly. But this, though, doesn't prevent racist outbursts. Should I remind you that Brice Hortefeux was found guilty of racism. He is not even far right supposedly. He was just a member of the UMP goverment in office at the time...
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On May 07 2012 21:06 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About Marine le pen being racist, you just have to change "race" by "culture" which fulfills the same function in the argumentation, and you have it. it's the same word, because in the end, it's all about identity and alterity: we don't accept the other in the community, because we feel it threatens our own identity and being.
No it is not the same word and it doesn't have the same meaning. Also it doesn't fulfills the same function since you are actually using the racist card to discredit any potential FN supporter. Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
Do people refuse foreigners to vote because they are racists? in today's France, yes. What other argument would you have against it?
Because uh why not ? I mean what's the next step, foreigners to vote for all the elections because why not ? Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About unemployment, what is your argument? You don't have any. This kind of assumption doesn't take into consideration the fact [b]that foreigners not only have a job, but also create demand (and quite high demand, as they are generally poor and spend most of their income), and therefore economic activity. (plus the fact that, as I said, recent immigrants take jobs other typically don't want). Bullshit Show nested quote +
Le chômage frappe beaucoup plus les étrangers que les Français : 17,8 % sont sans emploi, contre 8,6 % des Français. Le taux atteint 23,5 % pour les actifs non-ressortissants de l’Union européenne. Une partie de cet écart tient au niveau de diplôme : les étrangers sont moins qualifiés en moyenne que les Français.
http://www.inegalites.fr/spip.php?article86Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
Do you know how segregation started in South Africa in the early 20th century? White Boer workers after the war with Great Britain, had their jobs lost because of destructions during war. Then they claim for white preference for jobs against black people. Then they got reserved professional education and special urban areas for them... in 1924, the National Party governed for the first time. After world war two, they just started the apartheid. All this was starting from the impression that "blacks" were stealing their jobs.
The racist card again ! That's all you got ? OMG U A BOERNAZIFASCIST. Again typical lefty. Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About hallal food, I am just saying it's a ridiculously unimportant issue, which has become important only because many French are getting racist.
Like if Sarkozy or Hollande talked about the "important" issues lol. Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
First Marine le Pen claimed that all food in Paris region was hallal; which is just a lie.
I haven't followed the polemic closely but it seems that the majority of the sheep meat is indeed halal (80%) and thus should be advertized accordingly. http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/viande-halal-la-polemique-enfle-19-02-2012-1432940_23.phpShow nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
Second, do you know what does hallal means? it just means it was killed a certain traditional way, which doesn't affect food, but symbolically, for those believing it.
Of course you can always pretend that everything is normal, and that people don't hate muslims/arabs, but that they just want to be "informed" about their food, that Marine le Pen didn't really lie about hallal, but "simplified truth" in her speech to be heard.
Yea and ? If some people don't want to eat non casher or non halal food well i think that i should have the choice to not eat halal food too. Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
You can always think that people don't want immigrants to vote, not because they are afraid, but just because they have a different "culture" which they otherwise very much respect and like; that Marine Le pen didn't really go to Austria; and that I am making up all these things, not because I have reasons to do so, but because I am a stupid leftist.
I will personnally call this denial. But fair enough, then you take responsibility for these claims and their political direct and indirect political consequences. If you stop to call everyone nazi and racist and maybe you could start to have a proper discussion lol.
Well I didn't even call anyone nazi. I didn't even use the word. But apparently, being honest is too much of requirement for you. Of course, it's a typical rhetoric strategy to exagerate one's claim to make it easier to answer. As for racists, I didn't call everyone racist, I am just saying that the Front National voters in France have voted for racist dicourses, which strongly suggests that they have racist ideas, generally speaking; and in that sense, yes they are racists. At some point you have to face that, instead of hiding behind rhetorics and cheap arguments.
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On May 07 2012 21:08 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:59 Oshuy wrote:On May 07 2012 20:38 Macpo wrote:
About Marine le pen being racist, you just have to change "race" by "culture" which fulfills the same function in the argumentation, and you have it. it's the same word, because in the end, it's all about identity and alterity: we don't accept the other in the community, because we feel it threatens our own identity and being. That is nationalism, not racism. It is more a matter of debating wether there is such a thing as a nation's culture and if so, should it change to adapt to newcomers or should the newcomers adapt to fit in. I agree M. Le Pen is actively defending that yes France has its culture and yes newcomers should learn to speak french, stop washing and gobble up frogs before they are accepted. Racist statements are illegal in France, but nationalist views are a classical conservative stance. They can be debated, but I fail to see that they should be outright rejected. Well to a certain extent, it is precisely because racist statements are illegal that right and far right parties tend to be racist indirectly, instead of doing it openly. But this, though, doesn't prevent racist outbursts. Should I remind you that Brice Hortefeux was found guilty of racism. He is not even far right supposedly. He was just a member of the UMP goverment in office at the time...
You are wrong (again lol).
http://www.franceinter.fr/depeche-hortefeux-relaxe-en-appel-pour-des-propos-sur-un-maghrebin
On May 07 2012 21:16 Macpo wrote:
Well I didn't even call anyone nazi. I didn't even use the word. But apparently, being honest is too much of requirement for you. Of course, it's a typical rhetoric strategy to exagerate one's claim to make it easier to answer. As for racists, I didn't call everyone racist, I am just saying that the Front National voters in France have voted for racist dicourses, which strongly suggests that they have racist ideas, generally speaking; and in that sense, yes they are racists. At some point you have to face that, instead of hiding behind rhetorics and cheap arguments.
You are constantly lying and i'm the one "hiding behind rhetorics and cheap arguments" ?
LOL
Also you said that Marine Le Pen got to a neo nazi ceremony in Austria. Want me to quote ?
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EPT
