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On March 20 2012 04:53 TanTzoR wrote:
The abstention is going to be huge. Nobody likes Sarkozy or Hollande, t's going to be the elections of ithe "less worse".
It is the case for about 30years anyway ~~.
On March 20 2012 04:20 yaxv wrote:Hi Koorb, really nice thread, gives me a little insight on French policy (it's weird in these Internet days that I could easily have found tonnes of info online, but sometimes your best sources are those website you visit frequently).  Anyway, what are the French people's opinions on "France taking a greater role in the European Union's affairs"? In Germany we've seen people demonstrating against the recent economic support to Greece - do French people make a correlation between "greater role in the EU" and "giving more money to other European countries"?
Well i heard a lot of french economists who were asking for an "european solidarity" and who thought that we should have taken the greek debt as an EU debt. But what advise could we give to others? Germany has the better economy, so Germany is right :D
I also heard Daniel Cohen thinking about an European budget which should be made to invest in infrastructures in Eastern Countries (well this guy is a Keynesian so :< ) that would created growth ...blablabla ... and we would benefit from it.
And others (the great majority in the media) just wants France to follow Germany's "great" model (let s see in 5/10years imo).
Well all i can say with my poor english
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On March 20 2012 05:23 lazyo wrote:
Just out of curiousity, how strong is the Pirate Party in France? In Germany they made a pretty big splash when they took 9% in the elections for Berlin's senate and are expected to pass 5% in the next national election (thus entering parliament).
There's no equivalent in France I think.
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On March 20 2012 04:45 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
This is OP is misguiding. You're not even trying to hide your political preference even though you present this to be some sort of unbiased account of the French elections. The information given about Sarkozy is highly selective (you only focus on the negative aspects) and sometimes even downright false. then what positive aspects did he forget ? You are clearly the biased one. The op is critical on ALL candidates. My previous posts were biased :p His is not.
The OP makes it sound as though Sarkozy is responsible for worsening the 2008 crisis with bad political decisions. The only source he gives is that of a supposed "neutral" organization "la cours des comptes" who in reality is lead by a Socialist president Didier Migaud.
The OP leads everyone who does not follow french politics too closely into believing that Mr Sarkozy has made poor economic choices and fails to point out what his success have been, namely
-lowest unemployment increase in all of europe, only behind germany
-only european country to have increased it's purchasing power during the crisis
-only government in the past 20 years that has managed to limit the increase in public debt these past two years.
OP associates Sarkozy to "far-right" political views which is absurd, while only granting Hollande with "center-left- left opinions" when it is well known that Hollande is at the left side of the Parti Socialist (center-left would be DSK or Manuel Valls).
OP also spends a whole paragraph explaining how Mr Sarkozy's reforms have mostly benefited the richest, and implies he has close ties with rich CEOs. Not only is that grossly inacurate, I also fail to see how it is relevant. If he wanted to talk about political ties with rich CEOs, he should have mentioned how the Socialist Party has a very important amount of close "friends" who are also CEOs in the CAC40.
All in all, nothing really inaccurate in this OP, but many useless and incomplete facts that pollute the political debate and does not give a general picture of the political situation in France.
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On March 20 2012 05:22 chuky500 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:12 VyingsP wrote:
Sad you did not present Eva Joly. Sure she is between 1-3% in the polls. And sure she is pretty bad at communicating and promoting her program. But actually, she seems far more genuine than the others and her program is actually very interesting with a real goal for the next 5 years : to develop renewable energy production in France, and start the denuclearization of electricity production in France. As far as I can tell, she is the one with a real project (other than getting out of the euro zone or adding halal stickers on meat -_-).
And on a personnal level, her involvement against corruption as a former judge, and the fact that she is also norwegian would show that french people don't always elect professionnal politicians whose only goal is to be elected.
Concerning the non-french reader of this thread, I am quite interested to read what you think about our candidates and maybe the development of our campaign. Sadly the green party has dropped the denuclearisation part from their program and agreed with the socialists to keep building the EPR.
This is only a part of their arrangement with the socialists : they forced the PS to promise to dismantle Fessenheim and did not manage to force them to cancel the EPR as well. But they plan to completely remove nuclear power plants in France if they are elected (which they sadly won't)
As for the Pirate Party, they are really marginal in France. And neither Sarkozy nor Hollande plan to inforce a global licence. Actually Hollande's plans are completely blur on on this question atm.
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On March 20 2012 05:26 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:23 lazyo wrote:
Just out of curiousity, how strong is the Pirate Party in France? In Germany they made a pretty big splash when they took 9% in the elections for Berlin's senate and are expected to pass 5% in the next national election (thus entering parliament). There's no equivalent in France I think.
There is but the one that called themselves "party pirate" where involve in some kind of scandal about online piracy and fraud. That's when they lost a lot of their followers.
I think there trying to rebuild themselves from the ground up. But it's not a really popular alternative in France. http://partipirate.org/blog/index.php
About Eva joly, she's probably gonna back up when the official, because of the 5% threshold and that's too bad for the green party.
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On March 20 2012 04:53 TanTzoR wrote:
The abstention is going to be huge. Nobody likes Sarkozy or Hollande, it's going to be the elections of the "less worse".
It has always be this way in every country tho
Hollande is a big no for me, i'll probably support Mélanchon then Sarkozy.
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France266 Posts
On March 20 2012 05:23 lazyo wrote:
Just out of curiousity, how strong is the Pirate Party in France? In Germany they made a pretty big splash when they took 9% in the elections for Berlin's senate and are expected to pass 5% in the next national election (thus entering parliament).
There is a French Pirate Party, but AFAIK it never had any kind of highlights from the mainstream medias and I'm not even sure that they tried to gather the 500 sponsorships needed to have a legit candidate. So far, the party has only participated in a partial legislative election (meant to replace a MP who had dropped his seat), and got 1 or 2%. Their website is right here (in French).
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Well, with 10 years of Chirac&Sarkozy and right-winged governement & president, there will most likely be a shift and Holland should win the election. French people are for the most part fed up with the right-winged governement. But Holland will be forced to do everything that Sarkozy has been doing regarding the public servant ("fonctionnaire" in french, don't know how to translate it properly) because that's the only possible outcome; not renewing half of the public servants going into retirement. Meaning that in 2014 when come the local/regional elections, it will be heavily right-favored (right-winged favored ?). Because people will be like "hey, we did not ask for that when we voted for you, screw you, we're voting at right this time".
That's the reason why Holland and his party are shitting their pants right now, they pretty much know that the presidiential election is won, but they are really worried for the 2014 elections.
Anyway, I could not care less, I'm not going to vote. I'm a bad citizen, whatever. It's just not interesting.
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On March 20 2012 05:34 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:53 TanTzoR wrote:
The abstention is going to be huge. Nobody likes Sarkozy or Hollande, it's going to be the elections of the "less worse". It has always be this way in every country tho Hollande is a big no for me, i'll probably support Mélanchon then Sarkozy.
Why Sarkozy in the second round instead of Hollande? I was under the impression that Sarkozy and Melanchon are pretty much polar opposites
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The agreement with socialists and greens were : socialists gave 60 easy places for the parliament while the green party dropped nuclear plants they wanted to dismantle. At one point the socialists were offering 1 deputy for each nuclear plant not dismantled.
It's not the other way around : the goal of the green party wasn't to convince the socialists, their goal was to gain more deputies. Socialists have a better score and do what they want : see the agreemend they've signed with Chevenement agreeing they would not decrease the nuclear capactiy.
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On March 20 2012 05:26 Sea_aeS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:53 TanTzoR wrote:
The abstention is going to be huge. Nobody likes Sarkozy or Hollande, t's going to be the elections of ithe "less worse". It is the case for about 30years anyway ~~.
Not really true, in 2007 Sarkozy sort of represented a change. Which didn't happen.
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75% income tax on those making >1000k? blahhh. Sarkozy? blahhhhhh.
Not gonna lie France, I'm not too impressed with this list.
...then again what the fuck can I say as an American considering our current candidates.
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On March 20 2012 05:40 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:26 Sea_aeS wrote:On March 20 2012 04:53 TanTzoR wrote:
The abstention is going to be huge. Nobody likes Sarkozy or Hollande, t's going to be the elections of ithe "less worse". It is the case for about 30years anyway ~~. Not really true, in 2007 Sarkozy sort of represented a change. Which didn't happen.
I'm just going to comment on that, and then go to bed
Sarkozy had a really solid, well build-up plan for his office. The problem is that he took the crisis right in the balls in 2008, and instead of saying "okay this is tough, we can't do it anymore, we need to change it", he did the worst possible thing a politician can do. He refused to acknowledge that his plan was not going to work anymore, and still tried to push it while trying to ignore the situation. When that failed, it was too late and there was not much he could do anymore. And he looked bad to boot, for refusing to acknowledge the situation France was in because of the crisis.
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On March 20 2012 05:40 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:26 Sea_aeS wrote:On March 20 2012 04:53 TanTzoR wrote:
The abstention is going to be huge. Nobody likes Sarkozy or Hollande, t's going to be the elections of ithe "less worse". It is the case for about 30years anyway ~~. Not really true, in 2007 Sarkozy sort of represented a change. Which didn't happen.
As said by someone before me 2007 was a part of people who were hating Royal and the other hating Sarkozy... And it ended with more ppl hating Royal. Ppl were voting against the "worst" possible, not for the "best". So i dont see why what im saying is not true, though i admit that turnout was notable.
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On March 20 2012 05:51 1Eris1 wrote:
75% income tax on those making >1000k? blahhh. Sarkozy? blahhhhhh.
Not gonna lie France, I'm not too impressed with this list.
...then again what the fuck can I say as an American considering our current candidates.
One thing i want to mention about the 75% tax on income is that it only applies on what you earn abose 1000k. So for someone who earn 1100k, the first 1000k are at usual tax rate and the remaining 100k are at 75% tax. Should be enough to live...
On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
The OP leads everyone who does not follow french politics too closely into believing that Mr Sarkozy has made poor economic choices and fails to point out what his success have been, namely
-lowest unemployment increase in all of europe, only behind germany
-only european country to have increased it's purchasing power during the crisis
-only government in the past 20 years that has managed to limit the increase in public debt these past two years.
Really curious about those ones. I checked http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=451#. Between 2008 and 2009 (no data for 2010 unfortunately), unemployment raised from 7.4 to 9.2% in France. That is +1.8 point. In the meantime, we have :
3.8 -> 4.8 in Austria (+1 point)
7.0 -> 7.9 in Belgium (+0.9 point)
7.2 -> 8.9 in Greece (+1,7 point)
6.8 -> 7.9 in Italy (+1.1 point)
2.8 -> 3.6 in Luxembourg (+0.8 point)
2.8 -> 3.4 in Netherlands (+0.6 point)
7.1 -> 8.2 in Poland (+1.1 point)
4.4 -> 5.9 in Slovenia (+1.5 point)
and globaly
7.0 -> 8.9 in Europe 27 (+1.9 points)
How do you get the "lowest unemployment increase in all of europe, only behind germany" ? O_O
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I would probably vote for whoever would decrease immigration the most and stay as detached as possible from the European Union.
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On March 20 2012 04:53 TanTzoR wrote:
The abstention is going to be huge. Nobody likes Sarkozy or Hollande, t's going to be the elections of ithe "less worse".
I actually like Hollande. There aren't many politicians here that were involved in near to zero scandal (only the problem with PS leadership in PACA, in which he was mostly neutral) in the last ten years, and that's why I'll vote for him .
The OP makes it sound as though Sarkozy is responsible for worsening the 2008 crisis with bad political decisions. The only source he gives is that of a supposed "neutral" organization "la cours des comptes" who in reality is lead by a Socialist president Didier Migaud.
State institutions like this are very neutral, regardless of who leads them. Anyway it was Sarkozy who named him.
OP associates Sarkozy to "far-right" political views which is absurd, while only granting Hollande with "center-left- left opinions" when it is well known that Hollande is at the left side of the Parti Socialist (center-left would be DSK or Manuel Valls).
But then he plays a dangerous game. For non-natives out there : his "special advisor" Henri Guaino, says something dumb to excite far-right supporters every week (French don't feel at home in their country ; immigration has never created jobs ; etc.... He even wrote a speech in which Sarkozy was supposed to say that the African man had never been part of history.) As for Hollande.... You're right there. Classifying him as center-left is quite inacurrate ^^.
OP also spends a whole paragraph explaining how Mr Sarkozy's reforms have mostly benefited the richest, and implies he has close ties with rich CEOs. Not only is that grossly inacurate, I also fail to see how it is relevant. If he wanted to talk about political ties with rich CEOs, he should have mentioned how the Socialist Party has a very important amount of close "friends" who are also CEOs in the CAC40.
This is more Strauss-Kahn's side. Hollande doesn't have much friends there. As for Sarkozy having close ties with rich CEO's - the Bollore holidays ? The Fouquet's ? Dassault being a senator is his party ? Most of all, Martin Bouygues being the godfather of his newborn child ? Sarko has even stated Bouygues was the best friend he had. How is this inacurrate ?
I would probably vote for whoever would decrease immigration the most and stay as detached as possible from the European Union.
That's how :
1) You get the far-rights nationalists as a government
2) You kill your economy - hell, they want to revert back to the franc (the money before the euro) and raise protectionnist barriers. We've seen how much good this has done in 1929.
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France266 Posts
On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
The OP makes it sound as though Sarkozy is responsible for worsening the 2008 crisis with bad political decisions. The only source he gives is that of a supposed "neutral" organization "la cours des comptes" who in reality is lead by a Socialist president Didier Migaud.
The Court of Audit is one of the few institutions in this country which is widely regarded as independant of the governement and of the parties. And it should be reminded that its president Didier Migaud (who is indeed from the Socialist Party) has been appointed by the President of the Republic himself, Nicolas Sarkozy. Do you really think that the president would choose someone who can't be trusted for this job?
On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
The OP leads everyone who does not follow french politics too closely into believing that Mr Sarkozy has made poor economic choices and fails to point out what his success have been, namely
-lowest unemployment increase in all of europe, only behind germany
-only european country to have increased it's purchasing power during the crisis
-only government in the past 20 years that has managed to limit the increase in public debt these past two years.
I just don't ain't sure about your two first points, but the third is actually false cf. this. Since 2008, France's public debt has increased from 1318,6 billions of € to 1591,2 billions of €.
And I'm doubtful as well for the other two points you're mentioning. Unemployment rate is usually a pretty tricky issue (since its accounting is controversial), and consumers organisations such as 60 Millions de Consommateurs claim that the purchasing power is actually decreasing cf this article (basically because the purchasing power calculated by the governement is distorted by the decrease of the price of high-tech goods, while the everyday purchases such as food are getting more and more expansive) .
On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
OP associates Sarkozy to "far-right" political views which is absurd, while only granting Hollande with "center-left- left opinions" when it is well known that Hollande is at the left side of the Parti Socialist (center-left would be DSK or Manuel Valls)
I knew that this classification would be contested, but the point is:
*Possibly pulling out of the Schengen agreement, which is today one of the most highlighted policy proposed by N. Sarkozy, is a long-time claim of the far-right currents. So is the division by two of the legal immigration. And so is the halal-bashing that the party gladly took part of a few days ago. Meanwhile, I can't think of any truly far-left-related policies in Hollande's proposals.
*Union for a Popular Movement gathers a lot of former far-right politicians. Guillaume Peltier (one of N. Sarkozy's spokesman) is a former official of the National Front who later joined the Bruno Mégret's MNR (a party even more far-right than the National Front), and then he was an official of Philippe de Villiers's MPF (far-right again). Hervé Novelli (a former minister of the commerce) used to be a member of Occident (a violent far-right group) in his youth, and he later was a National Front official. Gérard Longuet, current minister of defense, is also a former member of Occident, so are Patrick Devedjian (who succeeded to N. Sarkozy as president of the general council of Haut-de-Seine) and Alain Madelin. And they're not the only one in that case. Meanwhile, I can't think of any former radical far-left politicians currently in charge in the socialist party.
The Union for a Popular Movement currently features a far-right current, the Socialist Party doesn't feature a far-left current (since of most of their people who could be regarded as far-left politicians left the party for Mélenchon's Left Party). Hence the discrepancy of categorisation between the two parties in the OP.
On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
OP also spends a whole paragraph explaining how Mr Sarkozy's reforms have mostly benefited the richest, and implies he has close ties with rich CEOs. Not only is that grossly inacurate, I also fail to see how it is relevant. If he wanted to talk about political ties with rich CEOs, he should have mentioned how the Socialist Party has a very important amount of close "friends" who are also CEOs in the CAC40.
Nicolas Sarkozy himself admits that, as the mayor of Neuilly, he met a lot of CEO's who he became close friend with and who influenced him (Bernard Arnault the CEO of LVMH and wealthiest person in France, Serge Dassault the owner of the same name firm and of a lot of local newspapers, Martin Bouygues who notably owns the most-widely watched television channel in France, Arnaud Lagardère, Liliane Bettencourt, Vincent Bolloré...). And yet again, I can't think of any kind of friendship between François Hollande and such influential CEOs (maybe Pierre Bergé, and Anne Lauvergeon?)
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On March 20 2012 06:11 VyingsP wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:51 1Eris1 wrote:
75% income tax on those making >1000k? blahhh. Sarkozy? blahhhhhh.
Not gonna lie France, I'm not too impressed with this list.
...then again what the fuck can I say as an American considering our current candidates. One thing i want to mention about the 75% tax on income is that it only applies on what you earn abose 1000k. So for someone who earn 1100k, the first 1000k are at usual tax rate and the remaining 100k are at 75% tax. Should be enough to live... Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
The OP leads everyone who does not follow french politics too closely into believing that Mr Sarkozy has made poor economic choices and fails to point out what his success have been, namely
-lowest unemployment increase in all of europe, only behind germany
-only european country to have increased it's purchasing power during the crisis
-only government in the past 20 years that has managed to limit the increase in public debt these past two years.
Really curious about those ones. I checked http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=451#. Between 2008 and 2009 (no data for 2010 unfortunately), unemployment raised from 7.4 to 9.2% in France. That is +1.8 point. In the meantime, we have : 3.8 -> 4.8 in Austria (+1 point) 7.0 -> 7.9 in Belgium (+0.9 point) 7.2 -> 8.9 in Greece (+1,7 point) 6.8 -> 7.9 in Italy (+1.1 point) 2.8 -> 3.6 in Luxembourg (+0.8 point) 2.8 -> 3.4 in Netherlands (+0.6 point) 7.1 -> 8.2 in Poland (+1.1 point) 4.4 -> 5.9 in Slovenia (+1.5 point) and globaly 7.0 -> 8.9 in Europe 27 (+1.9 points) How do you get the "lowest unemployment increase in all of europe, only behind germany" ? O_O
Check out the Stats from Eurostat concerning the whole 2007-2011 period to get the global picture. France's unemployement rate increase is surprisingly low compared to all other european countries, with special mentions for UK and Spain for catastrophic unemployement increase figures (both socialist governments). Your numbers are only based on 2 trimesters and are not usable to measure increase.
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On March 20 2012 05:28 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:45 Nouar wrote:On March 20 2012 03:46 Geiko wrote:
This is OP is misguiding. You're not even trying to hide your political preference even though you present this to be some sort of unbiased account of the French elections. The information given about Sarkozy is highly selective (you only focus on the negative aspects) and sometimes even downright false. then what positive aspects did he forget ? You are clearly the biased one. The op is critical on ALL candidates. My previous posts were biased :p His is not. The OP makes it sound as though Sarkozy is responsible for worsening the 2008 crisis with bad political decisions. The only source he gives is that of a supposed "neutral" organization "la cours des comptes" who in reality is lead by a Socialist president Didier Migaud. The OP leads everyone who does not follow french politics too closely into believing that Mr Sarkozy has made poor economic choices and fails to point out what his success have been, namely -lowest unemployment increase in all of europe, only behind germany -only european country to have increased it's purchasing power during the crisis -only government in the past 20 years that has managed to limit the increase in public debt these past two years. OP associates Sarkozy to "far-right" political views which is absurd, while only granting Hollande with "center-left- left opinions" when it is well known that Hollande is at the left side of the Parti Socialist (center-left would be DSK or Manuel Valls). OP also spends a whole paragraph explaining how Mr Sarkozy's reforms have mostly benefited the richest, and implies he has close ties with rich CEOs. Not only is that grossly inacurate, I also fail to see how it is relevant. If he wanted to talk about political ties with rich CEOs, he should have mentioned how the Socialist Party has a very important amount of close "friends" who are also CEOs in the CAC40. All in all, nothing really inaccurate in this OP, but many useless and incomplete facts that pollute the political debate and does not give a general picture of the political situation in France.
Now now... don't give in, you can fight false figures you were given.
Unemployment rates ?
Unemployment in Europe
Soooo, Austria, Belgium, Finland, Germany, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Romani, Sweden and the UK actually had a lower unemployment increase than us since 2007, and some more countries actually reduced the unemployment rate even more than us in 2011. Add to that the government changed the way we count the unemployed people in France a few times which brings controversy...
Spending power ?
LOLOLOLOL
1) He said France was the only one to have upped its spending power by 1.4% per year in Europe, and not the only one to have upped it.
2) This is just false. Stats from INSEE. Last lines, "Pouvoir d'achat du RDB from ******". Fyi Sarkozy was "quoting" these exact statistics. And don't take the first two lines they don't take into account demography (we gained 2.2% population in these 5 years). You want the "per capita" line.
3) It increased in other european countries, too. For some of them, like Poland, even by 19.5%, Belgium, 7.8%, Finland, 9.2%, Sweden, 16.5%..... Should I go on ?
4) In his "average" "during the crisis", he is counting 2007, which was NOT the crisis, and a pretty good year, making a solid part of the 5-year average.
Public debt ?
What do you even say ? "only government in the past 20 years to limit the increase in the past 2 years" ? Does that mean something ? anyway it was less worse in 2011 if my memory is correct, but still shitty.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/c5YD0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/K31Xi.jpg)
I'd very much appreciate if you would stop telling us the figures provided in a political meeting, when it's known that ALL politicians bend numbers their way, and CHECK your facts a little bit before providing us with a perfect UMP propaganda.
Saying Sarkozy is on the far right about immigration, laws concerning ethnic minorities, etc, is not absurd. Let me remind you the circulaire Gueant for example, who removed LOADS of foreign students from universities and their jobs, since they couldnt renew their staying permit.
The OP was fine, with good and bad points about ALL candidates, you just can't see it since you seem blinded and involved politically. You can take sides of course, just please don't make it sound like you're the one not taking them.
And about la Cour des Comptes. Lol. And now you make it sound like since the president (appointed by Sarkozy, it's like the only place where he appointed a socialist) is socialist, the WHOLE organisation can't be neutral and is telling shit. You sir, are astounding.
Take things with a grain of salt will you 
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EPT
