EPTHuman behavior is either determined or undetermined. There is no third possibility in existence. There is no third possibility that can even be logically understood or defined. What can it possibly mean for something to be neither determined nor undetermined? Some things really are black or white...
Free Will and Religion - Page 11
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Yes, this is a thread on TL that involves religion, but I hate to think that our policy should be to blindly close every such thread. Sam Harris is a writer whose books are both insightful and have sparked many good discussions in the past and as long as the thread doesn't derail I'd like to leave it open. This should be the basic premise for every such thread, no matter how high the odds of it derailing. In that light, these posts that just predict the downfall of this thread (whether it be pre-determined or not) are 1) Not contributing to the discussion 2) Backseat moderating 3) Annoying 4) Actually contributing towards derailing it. I'll keep 2 daying people for this. | ||
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liberal
1116 Posts
Human behavior is either determined or undetermined. There is no third possibility in existence. There is no third possibility that can even be logically understood or defined. What can it possibly mean for something to be neither determined nor undetermined? Some things really are black or white... | ||
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Hypertension
United States802 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:08 Oshuy wrote: Nope, still doesn't add up. Both me picking up the ball and me letting it there are consistent with the universe and its laws as we know them. The fact that multiple outcomes exist is in itself the negation of determinism. You can state that the list of possibles is determined, but I only need 2 anyway. I agree multiple universes gives me a free will that doesn't match the definition you seem to give it, but your counter argument is just at fault. According to the theory that you have free will you are right. However, if you believe determinism, then there aren't multiple options. Only one option is compatible with physics, and that is the thing that happens. Your "choice" was just an illusion created by the molecules in your brain. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
So tired of those Anglo-Saxon pseudo-scientists trying to be philosophers. Bow to the masters ! | ||
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viticuss
United States37 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:13 liberal wrote: I think people are really missing the very basic argument being presented here... Human behavior is either determined or undetermined. There is no third possibility in existence. There is no third possibility that can even be logically understood or defined. What can it possibly mean for something to be neither determined nor undetermined? Some things really are black or white... Not that I understand or can explicate the theory but IIRC a lot of modern philosophers hold that both are possible at the same time. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
It reminds me of some physics debates, where people are seemingly worried that if current theories are disproven, suddenly all sorts of electronics and such will stop working. I think it's like the idea of randomness, if you have the same seed your random number will always be the same, but that's okay as long as it can resemble true randomness enough. Similarly, given the same exact situation, the decisions someone makes will always be the same(with every atom being equal and such), but since one cannot predict the outcome beforehand, only reason about it afterwards, it's still pretty much the same as free will. | ||
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Bright]
United States118 Posts
Personally, I've enjoyed reading theologians such as Augustine or Johnathan Edwards who determine that God is metaphorically related to an Author-Play scenario (this is not a perfect rendition in any way, but sheds some light into a deterministic mindset). Take Shakespeare for Example in Macbeth. Macbeth kills King Duncan for his own reasons, in his own universe, and his own reality. In the play alone, no one would say Shakespeare made the decision to kill King Duncan, it is unanimous that Macbeth dealt the blow. Yet at the same time, Shakespeare has determined the universe in which the reality occurred. In one sense, the choice was Macbeth's -he killed the King. In another sense, it was determined by Shakespeare that this would occur, yet not faulted for this. This explanation clearly has flaws, however many deterministic theologians and philosophers could imply and assert this model to exemplify determinism and responsibility and refute the concept of free will. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:05 mcc wrote: How is it the opposite ? It is the only reasonable formulation of free will that I can find and is what free will means in social context. What is wrong with it ? It says you have free will if you are not excessively forced by outside agents or in other words if you are free to decide according to your own nature (by internal mechanisms). What more should free will mean ? You are trying to posit a free will that would mean that an entity would possibly choose two different actions in the same situation. How is it actually free will, is it not randomness instead ? Reasonableness has nothing to do with it. People have an intuitive idea of free will. Maybe it's self-contradictory. Or it's incompatible with determinism. But defining it as something completely different is confusing as hell. edit: But certainly not wrong in the logical sense. | ||
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frogrubdown
1266 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:19 Boblion wrote: Lol that tool is basicly rewording what Schopenhauer and then Nietzsche said a long time ago and i'm sure he won't even credit them lol. So tired of those Anglo-Saxon pseudo-scientists trying to be philosophers. Bow to the masters ! And Hume before them attempted to undermine the notion of cause necessary to even make sense of free will. There have been many influential contributions here. In general I'm wary of calls to bow down to German masters... | ||
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Oshuy
Netherlands529 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:11 shinosai wrote: Only one [choice] is consistent. The one that you will pick. Free will only comes to you a priori - all actions coming up to your particular choice seem to be free. But this is because you lack an a posteori view of it; upon acting, you shall be able to discover the motives of your action that were ultimately determined. This is a valid description of the current biological data on human actions, but it is flawed as an argument for or against freewill in a multiverse model. The main issue is in your first phrase. The multiverse model (or any other model consistent with current quantum physics) implies there are a vast number of consistent outcomes. That my motives will be apparent upon acting just means I will discover different motives depending on the action I take. The fact that I cannot go back on the choice that has been made holds and yes, I would not be who I am now if any choice prior had been different, but that is the consequence of free will, not its negation. | ||
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liberal
1116 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:22 viticuss wrote: Not that I understand or can explicate the theory but IIRC a lot of modern philosophers hold that both are possible at the same time. Even if that were somehow true, neither "determined" nor "undetermined" constitute what anyone would call "free will." I fail to see how the combination of the two could somehow produce free will. But the concept of free will is purely irrational to begin with. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
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Hypertension
United States802 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:26 Oshuy wrote: This is a valid description of the current biological data on human actions, but it is flawed as an argument for or against freewill in a multiverse model. The main issue is in your first phrase. The multiverse model (or any other model consistent with current quantum physics) implies there are a vast number of consistent outcomes. That my motives will be apparent upon acting just means I will discover different motives depending on the action I take. The fact that I cannot go back on the choice that has been made holds and yes, I would not be who I am now if any choice prior had been different, but that is the consequence of free will, not its negation. The multiverse doesn't save you from determinism. It is simply that the vast number of consistant outcomes occur. You did not get any choice in them happening, they were all predetermined by physics. | ||
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darkness777
Germany3 Posts
i am 20 yrs old i dont drink nor smoke , i choose not to be a drone like so many people. why do we have evil in this world? we gave our world to satan he rules this world, this is his kingdom long story made short satan hates yahshua (jesus) why should he bow down to a created being just like him. so he declares that god limits the angels potential and they worship him only in fear . so god does not destroy satan as that would prove satans point ^^ . u must understand god has nothing but time he is lonely he is the only 1 that lives we are all AI. so god is like ok lets create lab rats(humans) to prove ur point they shall neither see nor hear me. god told us u eat the apple u die simple as that and so we failed :{ and our world is now satans domain. so whats with all the other human bones we find. we make a very simple notion that evolution exists ;o. look at sc1 zergling compare to sc2 zergling same creator(blizzard) but it was modified right? god has infinite time on his hands he patchs life constantly he has a million better things to do than watch u . i would believe evolution if there was another species like us. its not evolution but many ages god created just like the 1 we are in an age of testing. what are those ages are for? i do not know why. do we were clothes? if u say that the enviroment did that u are stupid no creature can realise its naked because its normal and we are a damn lustful race so why make clothes? look at ur dog he does not feel any shame. if we really evolved we would be naked. think we were apes then we lost our hair then we realise we are cold?? then why not regrow our hair? why do humans have to think to get stuff we have always wanted to fly why not evolve wings? when we were tiny microbes somehow we became fish then we came out then we get birds omg thats messed up man ye humans must use there brains to get stuff while animals can just evolve? wow amazing look at our solar system its beautiful look at earth in between 2 inhabitable planets venus(hottest planet due to its surface) and mars. yet earth got a nice forcefield from the sun. god created science to govern the mortal realm. just as the angels(plz these are not women or babies plz dont mock these powerful beings show them respect) must be governed by some other system. i worship god not because i want to feel safe after death or because im insecure and need god to explain thing we dont know yet. i worship him out of pure respect and i have never been disciplined in life my parents never hit me i just had a great appreciation for gods work its truly amazing look at a tiger look at a cute panda and ask urself can randomness create that? hope this helps some lost soul ^^ | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
now, what do i think about free will? well...there are NO SUCH THING as god-given rights, we have human-given rights in certain counties and that is it. do i have the same free will growing up in USA as i would in Iran? you better damn well think not. everyone in 1st world countries are so god damn lucky they have no idea, and sadly in this world you're way better off being a white male rather than any other combination of races/sexes... it just so happens that you do at least have somewhat of a free will if you are born in a country such as the USA, UK, France, etc etc etc because generally you can become what you want...but generally not if you're poor either. | ||
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viticuss
United States37 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:36 darkness777 wrote: excuse my english im not very good at punctuation marks i am 20 yrs old i dont drink nor smoke , i choose not to be a drone like so many people. why do we have evil in this world? we gave our world to satan he rules this world, this is his kingdom long story made short satan hates yahshua (jesus) why should he bow down to a created being just like him. so he declares that god limits the angels potential and they worship him only in fear . so god does not destroy satan as that would prove satans point ^^ . u must understand god has nothing but time he is lonely he is the only 1 that lives we are all AI. so god is like ok lets create lab rats(humans) to prove ur point they shall neither see nor hear me. god told us u eat the apple u die simple as that and so we failed :{ and our world is now satans domain. so whats with all the other human bones we find. we make a very simple notion that evolution exists ;o. look at sc1 zergling compare to sc2 zergling same creator(blizzard) but it was modified right? god has infinite time on his hands he patchs life constantly he has a million better things to do than watch u . i would believe evolution if there was another species like us. its not evolution but many ages god created just like the 1 we are in an age of testing. what are those ages are for? i do not know why. do we were clothes? if u say that the enviroment did that u are stupid no creature can realise its naked because its normal and we are a damn lustful race so why make clothes? look at ur dog he does not feel any shame. if we really evolved we would be naked. think we were apes then we lost our hair then we realise we are cold?? then why not regrow our hair? why do humans have to think to get stuff we have always wanted to fly why not evolve wings? when we were tiny microbes somehow we became fish then we came out then we get birds omg thats messed up man ye humans must use there brains to get stuff while animals can just evolve? wow amazing look at our solar system its beautiful look at earth in between 2 inhabitable planets venus(hottest planet due to its surface) and mars. yet earth got a nice forcefield from the sun. god created science to govern the mortal realm. just as the angels(plz these are not women or babies plz dont mock these powerful beings show them respect) must be governed by some other system. i worship god not because i want to feel safe after death or because im insecure and need god to explain thing we dont know yet. i worship him out of pure respect and i have never been disciplined in life my parents never hit me i just had a great appreciation for gods work its truly amazing look at a tiger look at a cute panda and ask urself can randomness create that? hope this helps some lost soul ^^ I can't tell if you're trolling or just poorly educated. User was warned for this post | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:05 liberal wrote: If your decisions are subconscious, then you don't control them, which means you don't have free will... But there could be feedback loops or whatnot between your conscious and your subconscious. So maybe your conscious thoughts influence your subconscious ones which influence your conscious decisions. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:05 liberal wrote: If your decisions are subconscious, then you don't control them, which means you don't have free will... Your subconsciousness it part of "you". Trying to separate it for no apparent reason is what is causing most of this confusion. | ||
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darkness777
Germany3 Posts
ok why do we wear clothes?? u morons watch 1 -2 natgeo shows on evolution and u retards beileve them?? retards | ||
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darkness777
Germany3 Posts
look at u idiots who drink alchol mindless morons taking poison User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 06 2012 02:08 Oshuy wrote: Nope, still doesn't add up. Both me picking up the ball and me letting it there are consistent with the universe and its laws as we know them. The fact that multiple outcomes exist is in itself the negation of determinism. You can state that the list of possibles is determined, but I only need 2 anyway. I agree multiple universes gives me a free will that doesn't match the definition you seem to give it, but your counter argument is just at fault. It does not give you any free will whatsoever necessarily. The "universe" diverges in multiple universe model when atoms split due to random quantum mechanisms and are you trying to argue that atoms have free will ? | ||
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