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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions?
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On June 16 2016 20:35 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 18:46 bluzi wrote:On June 16 2016 10:28 FiWiFaKi wrote:On June 16 2016 09:36 saocyn wrote:
It's rather laughable that, we live in a country who thinks guns should be given out freely and with very little regulation. The concept of a person having the POWER to END ANY life at his whim or discretion sounds preposterous. it's a cold hard logic and fact to get to the bottom of this, compare every scenario that a person who had a gun was able to prevent a suicide bomber, robber, rapist, w/e and then compare the amount of scenarios where guns are misused and taken innocent lives. How many lives has a gun saved vs how many lives did it actually take? The concept of every person needs one to protect themselves sounds like horse shit if were to actually get the statistics of that.
The fact that more and more youths and deaths that occur BECAUSE it's unregulated and misused should be a call for reform. It's understandable if no murders, deaths, robbery, occur because of this, but that isn't the case. And cutting someone's neck with a knife, smashing their head with a bat or crowbar, injecting people with one of the many substances you can buy at your home hardware store - or 3D printing a gun nowadays. Come on, we live in a society... i.e. we need shared values, we need to work together. Maybe it's possible to function completely secluded from everyone else, but is this really how you'd like to envision the human race? I don't have a gun, I don't live in a place like the US, but I will say that a guns bring a sense of freedom, even though it may not be a tangible one. Anyway, it's nice to feel like you have some control in your life, and you COULD do something, even if you wouldn't. It's nice having more choice than choosing whether to buy the red or green peppers in your supermarket... It's bullshit how we need to wait 1-2 months to get a fishing license (and pay for it too) here when we want to go with a friend in a one-off occurrence, doing this with guns... I dunno, I'm not a fan. How do you know that guns bring freedom , you do have control in your life what you don't have is control of that other guy life and his rages and his issues , when he draws a semi automatic rifle and gun down your family , this isn't a movie you aren't saving anyone with the gun of yours you seems a bit childish saying its another choice like peppers in a supermarket when a guy start shooting at the street you will be shitting your pants , I was in the military for 3 years and 1 real war , seen people die nothing about guns is a freedom its a RESPONSIBILITY and a HUGH one , you talk about fishing license .... when you see someone BLEED to death and his fucking life sucked away from him you won't say dumb and childish things like that. Were you ever mad , really mad? like the kind of mad that makes you go crazy ? you be surprised how many people have those feelings every day for various reasons letting them have something in arm reach that can cause death in an instant is not a good idea no matter what , i rather have a guy punch someone in the face for f***g is girl friend or crushing into his car or cursing his mother or getting fired or whatever then drawing a gun ..... Whatever I'm done with this thread makes me sad seeing so many people thinking guns is a toy and everyone should buy them at toys are us . Don't ever in your life believe you don't have control , and worst don't believe anyone who tell you the owning a gun will improve it , trust me its the biggest liability you will ever own if you know what actually happens when you shoot someone or being shot at. Sorry if I came out harsher didn't mean to be personal about it.... cheers. Those people suffer from the strongest human emotion: fear. The news say "Shooters here", "Terrorists there" and "Government and police are bad guys", so they are afraid, afraid of bad guys, the husbands of the women they had affairs with, the government, any muslims or black people, despite not actually being in danger since, for the most part, most people are actually sort of decent human beings. Then someone tells them "You don't have to be afraid of gunmen if you own a bigger gun than them", so they go out, buy a gun and their fears are gone, because the steel in their hand gives them the feeling of safety and control, the power over life and death of the evil guys hiding in every dark alley. They don't want to think about whether that gun actually makes them safer, because they are too afraid of other people with guns, not realizing that they've just become one of those people with guns that others might be afraid of. They try to rationalize it any way they can, because everything else would mean that they'd have to confront their fears. It's irrational, most people have pretty much nothing to be afraid of apart from losing their job or their girl-/boyfriends, but they are too afraid of everything and need the power of a weapon in their hand, they need a wall to keep the drug sellers in the south away, they need all muslims to be far away in the middle east, just so they don't have to be afraid. Then someone tells them something else they have to be afraid of and they'll do everything to not be afraid of that, too. "Evil WMDs in iraq, they might blow you up any second now, support us to invade them before that happens." Modern media and politics in all of history is all about fear, probably not even intentionally but because fear sells and convinces even more than sex. Not the actual life-or-death fear someone experiences in a real gun fight, but the imagined fear of the unknown, the things that might happen if they don't protect themselves any means possible.
I agree that Fear might be a factor here , someone here wrote something "police are shooting way too freely so we need defend ourselves" maybe if you think why the police in the US shoots so fast its because every god damn small felon has a gun that can KILL them outright , so the police fear its civilians which is even crazier.
If the police wouldn't fear guns at every suspect hands they will be WAY less shooting i refuse to believe cops just shoots people just because they like it, you need to be a really special person to like killing people.
Still money is king and as long its involved people will be brainwashed to do whatever benefits the gun companies , same as it was with smoking and the "freedom" of doing what i want , but then they got wrecked and you cannot smoke in a public place anymore , I wish you couldn't carry your god damn gun there as well.
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Zurich15355 Posts
On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions?
There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense.
So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons.
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On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons.
That's interesting. I would expect such regulation to be more harmonized in EU, because in the Czech Republic, you can own a gun explicitly for self-defense, it's a specific category of gun license, the only one that allows you to carry a loaded gun in public, but it is not more difficult to attain than for example a hunting license. So if I had such license, I couldn't just cross to Germany with the gun?
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Also statistics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
There are guns in Germany. There are 4 times as many guns per person in the US. The US is an extreme outlier in that statistic.
Not to mention the difference in the type of gun ownership that zatic just pointed out.
I don't get why people keep acting like anyone asks for a 0 gun society. I have not seen a single person saying that, but it is a strawmen that gets constantly argued against. What people are asking for are european-style regulations (Well, in case of the europeans in the thread, it is not necessarily "asking", more like recommending. It can't hurt to learn from other countries if something you do is clearly a lot worse than the average)
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Zurich15355 Posts
On June 16 2016 21:20 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. That's interesting. I would expect such regulation to be more harmonized in EU, because in the Czech Republic, you can own a gun explicitly for self-defense, it's a specific category of gun license, the only one that allows you to carry a loaded gun in public, but it is not more difficult to attain than for example a hunting license. So if I had such license, I couldn't just cross to Germany with the gun?
There is a carry license as well in Germany, but it is extremely rare. Something like a few dozen licenses issued per year. A carry license is also tied to a specific weapon and use case. So for example a professional bodyguard, or a money courier could have a carry license, but they would only be valid while they are exercising their profession. Outside of that they would still be allowed to own a gun, but only within the strict regime other gun owners have to adhere to as well.
That's what I meant by marginal cases.
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On June 16 2016 21:20 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. That's interesting. I would expect such regulation to be more harmonized in EU, because in the Czech Republic, you can own a gun explicitly for self-defense, it's a specific category of gun license, the only one that allows you to carry a loaded gun in public, but it is not more difficult to attain than for example a hunting license. So if I had such license, I couldn't just cross to Germany with the gun?
im not an expert on this but im pretty sure you would get into trouble with the police. i would assume that you need permission from either a german office or an european one. probably comparable to an international driving permit
@incognoto: im not sure if my memory serves me correctly but werent you the guy who was strictly pro guns for self defense reasons? if that was the case then you cant deny that fear plays a very important role in this discussion
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On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons.
Sure, I know all of that. In fact it reinforces my point: firearms aren't obtained solely out of "fear", stipulating so is being dishonest and is making this discussion even more difficult than it already is.
Your pointing out that Germans aren't allowed to own firearms for self-defence only reinforces the notion that firearms aren't bought necessarily for that role, which is what the poster was implying.
Keep the discussion honest and relevant. Keep the silly "murricans are barbarians, europe is civilization!!11" posts out of this thread.
Also, yes, the USA's regulation for firearms are far too lax at the moment. The USA needs to do something about it in that regard, if not regulation, then some other mechanism which ensures that guns stay in the hands of those who aren't going to commit atrocities with them. European countries, in this regard, have shown that it's possible.
@incognoto: im not sure if my memory serves me correctly but werent you the guy who was strictly pro guns for self defense reasons?
No, I'm not. I am pro gun, pro regulation. I also stipulated that "reason" is irrelevant for being allowed to legally obtain weapon. You don't allow people to obtain lethal weapons based on their "reasons", you allow them to have firearms if they have proven to be trustworthy. There's a difference.
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On June 16 2016 21:20 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. That's interesting. I would expect such regulation to be more harmonized in EU, because in the Czech Republic, you can own a gun explicitly for self-defense, it's a specific category of gun license, the only one that allows you to carry a loaded gun in public, but it is not more difficult to attain than for example a hunting license. So if I had such license, I couldn't just cross to Germany with the gun?
This article should explain what you need to know about German gun laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_legislation_in_Germany
I understand that similar laws would be impossible in the US due to the already existing prevalence of gun ownership, but they work for Germany because most Germans feel safe as our police tends to actually do it's job, despite all the - for Germans all too typical - complaints about it.
I still think the US needs to take at least one step in that direction before the problem becomes even worse. When I'm watching the US it feels like a cold war where all sides are building up weapon stock piles in case someone shoots first. Of course my view is tainted by the media filter, so I know that most Americans probably live normal lives with no guns around, but I still find the US gun policy insane.
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On June 16 2016 21:46 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. Sure, I know all of that. In fact it reinforces my point: firearms aren't obtained out of "fear", stipulating so is being dishonest and is making this discussion even more difficult than it already is. Your pointing out that Germans aren't allowed to own firearms for self-defense only reinforces the notion that firearms aren't bought necessarily for that role, which is what the poster was implying. Keep the discussion honest and relevant. Keep the silly "murricans are barbarians, europe is civilization!!11" posts out of this thread. Also, yes, the USA's regulation for firearms are far too lax at the moment. The USA needs to do something about it in that regard, if not regulation, then some other mechanism which ensures that guns stay in the hands of those who aren't going to commit atrocities with them. European countries, in this regard, have shown that it's possible.
But in the previous pages, several US posters have said that they want guns to protect themselves vs the police and the tyranny of the state. You could easily interpret that as "fear", would you not agree?
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On June 16 2016 21:49 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:46 Incognoto wrote:On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. Sure, I know all of that. In fact it reinforces my point: firearms aren't obtained out of "fear", stipulating so is being dishonest and is making this discussion even more difficult than it already is. Your pointing out that Germans aren't allowed to own firearms for self-defense only reinforces the notion that firearms aren't bought necessarily for that role, which is what the poster was implying. Keep the discussion honest and relevant. Keep the silly "murricans are barbarians, europe is civilization!!11" posts out of this thread. Also, yes, the USA's regulation for firearms are far too lax at the moment. The USA needs to do something about it in that regard, if not regulation, then some other mechanism which ensures that guns stay in the hands of those who aren't going to commit atrocities with them. European countries, in this regard, have shown that it's possible. But in the previous pages, several US posters have said that they want guns to protect themselves vs the police and the tyranny of the state. You could easily interpret that as "fear", would you not agree?
Bollocks. No sane American is buying a firearm to shoot police officers with.
Their "fear" is more for their freedom to bear arms rather than for their life. That is my interpretation. I won't speak for them. However pretending that ALL Americans buy their firearms because they fear the state, other people, the police, etc. is bollocks. There are many perfectly valid reasons to obtain a gun and "because i want to" is one of them.
It's fear mongering and not adding to the discussion. I mean when you read this, you cringe because the poster is making out the problem to be way worse than it actually is (see Kiwikaki's recent posts in this thread). I find it distasteful:
I still think the US needs to take at least one step in that direction before the problem becomes even worse. When I'm watching the US it feels like a cold war where all sides are building up weapon stock piles in case someone shoots first.
I'd like to see the statistics of gun violence rising over the past few years? I could be wrong, I don't have the numbers in my mind. What's the actual trend?
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On June 16 2016 21:57 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:49 Laurens wrote:On June 16 2016 21:46 Incognoto wrote:On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. Sure, I know all of that. In fact it reinforces my point: firearms aren't obtained out of "fear", stipulating so is being dishonest and is making this discussion even more difficult than it already is. Your pointing out that Germans aren't allowed to own firearms for self-defense only reinforces the notion that firearms aren't bought necessarily for that role, which is what the poster was implying. Keep the discussion honest and relevant. Keep the silly "murricans are barbarians, europe is civilization!!11" posts out of this thread. Also, yes, the USA's regulation for firearms are far too lax at the moment. The USA needs to do something about it in that regard, if not regulation, then some other mechanism which ensures that guns stay in the hands of those who aren't going to commit atrocities with them. European countries, in this regard, have shown that it's possible. But in the previous pages, several US posters have said that they want guns to protect themselves vs the police and the tyranny of the state. You could easily interpret that as "fear", would you not agree? Bollocks. No sane American is buying a firearm to shoot police officers with. Their "fear" is more for their freedom to bear arms rather than for their life. That is my interpretation. I won't speak for them. However pretending that ALL Americans buy their firearms because they fear the state, other people, the police, etc. is bollocks. There are many perfectly valid reasons to obtain a gun and "because i want to" is one of them. It's fear mongering and not adding to the discussion. I mean when you read this, you cringe because the poster is making out the problem to be way worse than it actually is (see Kiwikaki's recent posts in this thread). I find it distasteful: Show nested quote +I still think the US needs to take at least one step in that direction before the problem becomes even worse. When I'm watching the US it feels like a cold war where all sides are building up weapon stock piles in case someone shoots first. I'd like to see the statistics of gun violence rising over the past few years? I could be wrong, I don't have the numbers in my mind. What's the actual trend?
It is by no means "ALL" Americans buying guns for that reason. However, there is a very real, slightly scary slice of the American gun owners (and they're not an irrelevant minority) who do have this actual notion that the US government is going to become tyrannical and the only way to preserve their freedom will be to pick up their AR15 and presumably start shoot straight up in hopes to take down UAVs at 50000 feet. And it's clear by the way that a few of them talk that they're quite eager to shoot up the makers of this dystopian tyranny that Obama has started.
Now to say that this is representative of the average American gun owner would be ridiculous but these people do have a voice and it's a bit weird and sick. It's a very intense subculture.
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On June 16 2016 21:57 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:49 Laurens wrote:On June 16 2016 21:46 Incognoto wrote:On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. Sure, I know all of that. In fact it reinforces my point: firearms aren't obtained out of "fear", stipulating so is being dishonest and is making this discussion even more difficult than it already is. Your pointing out that Germans aren't allowed to own firearms for self-defense only reinforces the notion that firearms aren't bought necessarily for that role, which is what the poster was implying. Keep the discussion honest and relevant. Keep the silly "murricans are barbarians, europe is civilization!!11" posts out of this thread. Also, yes, the USA's regulation for firearms are far too lax at the moment. The USA needs to do something about it in that regard, if not regulation, then some other mechanism which ensures that guns stay in the hands of those who aren't going to commit atrocities with them. European countries, in this regard, have shown that it's possible. But in the previous pages, several US posters have said that they want guns to protect themselves vs the police and the tyranny of the state. You could easily interpret that as "fear", would you not agree? Bollocks. No sane American is buying a firearm to shoot police officers with. Their "fear" is more for their freedom to bear arms rather than for their life. That is my interpretation. I won't speak for them. However pretending that ALL Americans buy their firearms because they fear the state, other people, the police, etc. is bollocks. There are many perfectly valid reasons to obtain a gun and "because i want to" is one of them. It's fear mongering and not adding to the discussion. I mean when you read this, you cringe because the poster is making out the problem to be way worse than it actually is (see Kiwikaki's recent posts in this thread). I find it distasteful: Show nested quote +I still think the US needs to take at least one step in that direction before the problem becomes even worse. When I'm watching the US it feels like a cold war where all sides are building up weapon stock piles in case someone shoots first. I'd like to see the statistics of gun violence rising over the past few years? I could be wrong, I don't have the numbers in my mind. What's the actual trend?
There are also perfectly valid reasons to regulate guns and require better gun training. There are countries in the EU that allow for ownership of fire arms, including clip feed long rifles(I know people get upset when at the term assault rifles). But those countries regulate either the gun or the purchase of ammunition, require training and prohibit concealing the fire arm. Switzerland is a prime example of this.
And since poverty, crime and violence are all linked, it only makes sense for areas with high levels of poverty more restrictive laws when it comes to fire arms.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On June 16 2016 21:20 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. That's interesting. I would expect such regulation to be more harmonized in EU, because in the Czech Republic, you can own a gun explicitly for self-defense, it's a specific category of gun license, the only one that allows you to carry a loaded gun in public, but it is not more difficult to attain than for example a hunting license. So if I had such license, I couldn't just cross to Germany with the gun?
every member state still has its own gun laws and visitors have to abide by them. the european firearms pass is just a standardised document to prove ownership of the firearm, and approval for ownership of that firearm from your own country. idk what germany's laws are regarding temporary import of firearms, but i have flown into switzerland with a handgun for a competition and they didnt care. i could have walked straight out off the airport after being handed it at baggage collection, but i went to the customs area to declare it. all they wanted to know was that it was a temporary import, didnt even care to look at any documentation.
however there is an ongoing push by the european commission to enact a draconian firearms directive that would probably end up banning all centerfire semi-autos.
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Zurich15355 Posts
On June 16 2016 22:22 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 21:20 opisska wrote:On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. That's interesting. I would expect such regulation to be more harmonized in EU, because in the Czech Republic, you can own a gun explicitly for self-defense, it's a specific category of gun license, the only one that allows you to carry a loaded gun in public, but it is not more difficult to attain than for example a hunting license. So if I had such license, I couldn't just cross to Germany with the gun? however there is an ongoing push by the european commission to enact a draconian firearms directive that would probably end up banning all centerfire semi-autos.
Do you have more details on this? First time I am hearing about this and interests me a lot.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On June 16 2016 22:28 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 22:22 ahswtini wrote:On June 16 2016 21:20 opisska wrote:On June 16 2016 21:15 zatic wrote:On June 16 2016 20:54 Incognoto wrote:
@Morfildur
What a load of asinine garbage.
Pardon my French, but if you think that what you're describing holds even remotely true as to why people buy firearms in the first place, you have nothing to do discussing this topic in the first place.
It's pretty insulting the way you portray American gun-owners, it doesn't contribute to the discussion; you're just being petulant and arrogant.
Especially when Germany is also a country which is very heavily armed, there are many firearms in private hands in Germany. But you're better than Americans are. It's silly.
This is a recurrent theme from some (not all) German posters, who keep deriding the USA arrogantly and assuming that Europe is the only civilized society on the planet. You see it in this thread and you see it in the US politics thread.
Why even bother posting? Why can't you leave the thread alone so that we can have grown up discussions? There is a key difference though: In Germany, and most European countries, you cannot get a gun (license) for self defense reasons. Outside of marginal cases, the only acceptable reasons of necessity are competitive target shooting and hunting. In fact, keeping your gun in any state that it could be reasonably used for self defense is a criminal offense. So yes, Germany has plenty of guns, and plenty of gun owners, but the main difference to the US is that they are not owned for self defense reasons. That's interesting. I would expect such regulation to be more harmonized in EU, because in the Czech Republic, you can own a gun explicitly for self-defense, it's a specific category of gun license, the only one that allows you to carry a loaded gun in public, but it is not more difficult to attain than for example a hunting license. So if I had such license, I couldn't just cross to Germany with the gun? however there is an ongoing push by the european commission to enact a draconian firearms directive that would probably end up banning all centerfire semi-autos. Do you have more details on this? First time I am hearing about this and interests me a lot.
certainly, here's a lengthy statement from FACE dating from 2014: http://www.face.eu/sites/default/files/attachments/face_response_to_ec_communication_on_firearms__10_02_2014_formatted.pdf
since then, and with the terror attacks in france, there's been a renewed push under the auspices of making it harder for terrorists to gain access to firearms.
https://basc.org.uk/blog/press-releases/latest-news/qa-european-commission-proposals-for-amending-the-firearms-directive/
of particular concern is this point:
A proposed ban on “semi-automatic firearms for civilian use which resemble weapons with automatic mechanisms”.
aka ban guns that look scary
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EDIT: Didn't check the date on a link, was out of date.
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On June 16 2016 22:19 Plansix wrote:
There are also perfectly valid reasons to regulate guns and require better gun training. There are countries in the EU that allow for ownership of fire arms, including clip feed long rifles(I know people get upset when at the term assault rifles). But those countries regulate either the gun or the purchase of ammunition, require training and prohibit concealing the fire arm. Switzerland is a prime example of this.
And since poverty, crime and violence are all linked, it only makes sense for areas with high levels of poverty more restrictive laws when it comes to fire arms.
I don't argue against that at all.
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On June 16 2016 23:10 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 22:19 Plansix wrote:
There are also perfectly valid reasons to regulate guns and require better gun training. There are countries in the EU that allow for ownership of fire arms, including clip feed long rifles(I know people get upset when at the term assault rifles). But those countries regulate either the gun or the purchase of ammunition, require training and prohibit concealing the fire arm. Switzerland is a prime example of this.
And since poverty, crime and violence are all linked, it only makes sense for areas with high levels of poverty more restrictive laws when it comes to fire arms.
I don't argue against that at all.
Then we need to move the discussion to the fact that the US does none of those things. It is easier to go from owning no guns to owning an AR 15 than a dog license in some states. And much of this is driven no by gun ownership rights, but the companies that make guns and the gun sellers wanting to sell arms to literally anyone and zero responsibility. I would need to check, but I remember back around 2008 or so that the number of illegal fire arms traveling to Mexico something around 5000 a month. And someone is making bank off of that and doesn’t’ want it to end, even if it means a lot of people get shot.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On June 16 2016 23:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2016 23:10 Incognoto wrote:On June 16 2016 22:19 Plansix wrote:
There are also perfectly valid reasons to regulate guns and require better gun training. There are countries in the EU that allow for ownership of fire arms, including clip feed long rifles(I know people get upset when at the term assault rifles). But those countries regulate either the gun or the purchase of ammunition, require training and prohibit concealing the fire arm. Switzerland is a prime example of this.
And since poverty, crime and violence are all linked, it only makes sense for areas with high levels of poverty more restrictive laws when it comes to fire arms.
I don't argue against that at all. Then we need to move the discussion to the fact that the US does none of those things. It is easier to go from owning no guns to owning an AR 15 than a dog license in some states. And much of this is driven no by gun ownership rights, but the companies that make guns and the gun sellers wanting to sell arms to literally anyone and zero responsibility. I would need to check, but I remember back around 2008 or so that the number of illegal fire arms traveling to Mexico something around 5000 a month. And someone is making bank off of that and doesn’t’ want it to end, even if it means a lot of people get shot.
like the us government?
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EPT
